UEFA Euro 2021 But Yet Somehow Still Euro 2020 Finals

[andrea]

The clearest penalty was the one that wasn’t given.

 

[Whitestar]

The pundits seemed to think it was a fair penalty, but he definitely got the ball first. I've never seen a penalty given for that before.

A compromise and better decision would probably have been an indirect free-kick (dangerous play) in this case, if he in fact got the ball first. But I dunno, it's a difficult call because the keeper must be allowed some freedoms within his area of domain. To me it looked more like just an unfortunate accident. IIRC the keeper's eyes were firmly on the ball, not the player.

As for Ronaldo, he's always been a cry-baby. Pepe is just an overall ***. IMO

 

[dacc10]

As for bad decisions, however, Ronaldo has been offside a few times and not been called out for it, e.g. his goal against Germany - he was offside when the first ball was played, but the goal stood.

What? When Bernardo Silva passed to Jota, Ronaldo was in "offside" position, but not really, since the ball wasn't played for him. And Jota assisted, Ronaldo was clearly not offside. The one that might have been offside, was the third goal against Hungary.

 

[Touring Mars]

What? When Bernardo Silva passed to Jota, Ronaldo was in "offside" position, but not really, since the ball wasn't played for him. And Jota assisted, Ronaldo was clearly not offside. The one that might have been offside, was the third goal against Hungary.

Yes, "really" - he was offside, and the defenders were covering him so he was interfering with play. He then scored the goal, so it absolutely should have been disallowed IMO.

Germany also had a goal disallowed in that game because of an 'offside' player who didn't actually touch the ball, but was offside when the ball was played and then converted into a goal by a different player who was onside. I reckon that was disallowed because the offside player was deemed to be interfering with play i.e. he went for the ball and thus distracted the goalkeeper, allowing the other guy to score. But if that is the case, then I can't see why Ronaldo and Jota's move could be deemed legal. I assume it was not spotted by the linesman and not checked by VAR.

And yes, his goal against Hungary was also offside and should have been disallowed too.

 

[dacc10]

Yes, "really" - he was offside, and the defenders were covering him so he was interfering with play. He then scored the goal, so it absolutely should have been disallowed IMO.

And yes, his goal against Hungary was also offside and should have been disallowed too.

By that logic, almost half the goals in every tournament would be disallowed because someone at some point was offside. Don't try to change the rules to fit your narrative please.

 

[Touring Mars]

By that logic, almost half the goals in every tournament would be disallowed because someone at some point was offside.

Don't talk rubbish. That's nonsense and you know it.

Also, please read my edit regarding the Germany goal... clearly, the offside rule is open to interpretation as to whether a player is deemed to be interfering with play or not. I think, though, that they should at the very least be consistent in how they apply the rule.

Irrespective of that, however, I can't understand where you are coming from with this remark.

 

[dacc10]

In that same game, Gnabry was offside for Germany's third goal, by your logic. The big difference for the first goal for Germany, that was disallowed, was that the player offside, went for the ball. Ronaldo didn't, until Jota assisted. Nowhere on this planet would that goal be disallowed, but in your mind it should. Go figure.

You could make a point that any player that is offside, is technicaly interfering with the play, even if he doesn't touch the ball in the first place and is 10 meters apart from the ball, but you can't change that rule in the middle of the tournament, and in the middle of a game, for a specific situation.

 

[Touring Mars]

In that same game, Gnabry was offside for Germany's third goal, by your logic. The big difference for the first goal for Germany, that was disallowed, was that the player offside, went for the ball. Ronaldo didn't, until Jota assisted. Nowhere on this planet would that goal be disallowed, but in your mind it should. Go figure.

The key point is whether a player is a) in an offside position and b) interfering with play when the pass is made.

Clearly, the officials either missed the fact that Ronaldo was in an offside position or they spotted it and decided that he was not interfering with play, even though he then scored the goal by being in the position to do so, despite being offside when the ball was played to Jota.

I don't remember the Gnabry offside, but again it would come down to whether he was involved in creating or scoring the goal.

 

[dacc10]

Yet, no referee would disallow that goal, and if for some odd reason someone did, it would be a huge scandal.

It's actually quite simple, if in the moment of the pass, any player attacking the ball is offside, then it is offside. Anyone else, as long as they don't go for the ball in the first instance, they're not offside. The only way Ronaldo was offside, is if he had ran for the ball after the long ball from Bernardo Silva.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

The last 16 games.

Saturday.
Wales v Denmark (5pm Amsterdam, BBC)
Italy v Austria (8pm London, BBC)

Sunday.
Netherlands v Czech Republic (5pm Budapest, ITV)
Belgium v Portugal (8pm Seville, ITV)

Monday.
Croatia v Spain (5pm Copenhagen, ITV)
France v Switzerland (8pm Bucharest, ITV)

Tuesday.
England v Germany (5pm London, BBC)
Sweden v Ukraine (8pm Glasgow, BBC)

Kick-off time are GMT.

Quarter finals begin on Friday.

 

[Famine]

It's actually quite simple, if in the moment of the pass, any player attacking the ball is offside, then it is offside. Anyone else, as long as they don't go for the ball in the first instance, they're not offside.

It's absolutely not that simple.

To give you an extreme example, a player standing 30 yards offside standing directly in front of the goalkeeper so that the keeper cannot see would be offside, whether they made any move towards the ball or not. This is covered in the "interfering with play" portion of the offside rules.

Here's IFAB's guidance - pay close attention to the "on becoming involved in active play" portion:

Offside position
It is not an offence to be in an offside position.

A player is in an offside position if:

• any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
• any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered. For the purposes of determining offside, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit.

A player is not in an offside position if level with the:

• second-last opponent or
• last two opponents

Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
• interfering with an opponent by:
  • preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
  • challenging an opponent for the ball or
  • clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
  • making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
• gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
  • rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
  • been deliberately saved by any opponent

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

In situations where:

• a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of the opponent towards the ball this is an offside offence if it impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the offence should be penalised under Law 12
• a player in an offside position is moving towards the ball with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred before the offside offence
• an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge

*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used

I've not watched a second of Euro 2020 so far, but I've dug out the Ronaldo goal against Germany...

It looks like Ronaldo is in an offside position when the first ball is played, as he is nearer the goal line than the second-last opponent - which is not an offence.

It looks like Ronaldo is again in offside position when the second ball is played, as part of his head/body/feet (his knee) is nearer the goal line than the second-last opponent, though he is behind the ball - and it is immaterial in any case due to the first offside position.

It looks like Neuer gets a touch on the ball with his left foot, which both is rebounding from an opponent and a deliberate save of a ball near a goal, though it is actually immaterial whether he does or not due to the above offside position:

And then Ronaldo, who is no longer in an offside position, plays the ball:

Let's refer back to the rules again:

A player is in an offside position if:

• any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
• any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

Check.

Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate

Check.

And if Neuer did touch it:

• gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
  • rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
  • been deliberately saved by any opponent

It's pretty much a slam dunk of an offside offence.

And yes, so was Germany's third goal - but not Gnabry. Gnabry was in an offside position but didn't commit an offside offence. Havertz, who scored the goal, was so far offside he'd still be offside now and committed the offside offence when he subsequently played the ball to score:

I also checked out the Portugal/France game and, yep, France's penalty was absolute nonsense. Lloris was also very unlucky - he did just clip the ball before punching the Portuguese player in the head.

It seems the officiating in that group has been pretty substandard, despite VAR. I can't speak for the rest of the tournament however.

 

[dacc10]

It looks like Ronaldo is again in offside position when the second ball is played, as part of his head/body/feet (his knee) is nearer the goal line than the second-last opponent - which is not an offence, and is immaterial in any case due to the first offside position.

When Jota passes to Ronaldo, Neuer (not Lloris) didn't touch the ball, if I remember correctly, but Ronaldo is not offside due to being behind the ball, which is clearer when you watch the replay from a better position.

 

[Famine]

but Ronaldo is not offside due to being behind the ball, which is clearer when you watch the replay from a better position

Edit: Ah wait, I misread. I see what you mean.

In any case though, he was in an offside position from the first pass, so the offside offence was complete when he subsequently played the ball.

It shouldn't have stood - and neither should Havertz's goal.

 

[dacc10]

Neither Ronaldo's or Havertz's goals should have been disallowed. Situations like this happen nearly every game, and no offside is given unless the ball goes directly to the player offside (for example, instead of Bernardo Silva - Jota - Ronaldo, the play was Bernardo Silva - Ronaldo (offside)).

As for the other groups, there was another situation in the Belgium - Russia (3-0), when in the first goal, Lukaku is in offside position at the moment of the pass, but since the russian defender tried to clear the ball (and totally bottled it), the goal was given. It's one of those open to interpretation I guess.

 

[Famine]

Neither Ronaldo's or Havertz's goals should have been disallowed. Situations like this happen nearly every game, and no offside is given unless the ball goes directly to the player offside (for example, instead of Bernardo Silva - Jota - Ronaldo, the play was Bernardo Silva - Ronaldo (offside)).

This is not what it says in the laws of the game. There is no mention of "directly". You can read the full offside laws from IFAB in my post.

Both Ronaldo and Havertz were in offside positions when the ball was played by a team-mate, but this is not an offside offence.

They were both "involved in active play" from an offside position because they then played the ball after it was passed by a team mate, or deflected by an opponent (or goal frame), or saved. This is an offside offence. That is what it says in the laws of the game.

 

[dacc10]

So this means that the rules are not specific enough. They should mention that it only counts as an offside at the moment the last pass* (or shot and subsequent rebound) is done. If they are offside at the time the second to last pass (or any other pass prior to the final pass) is made, but then, by the time the last pass is done, that player is not in offside position anymore, it's not an offence.

Atleast this is the way the games have been refereed for a long time, I've never seen, atleast in the last decade or so, an offside being called for a player that didn't get the ball directly.

*to the player in offside position

 

[Famine]

I've never seen, atleast in the last decade or so, an offside being called for a player that didn't get the ball directly.

Happens literally all the time in English football, cited as "interfering with play" (although the actual term is "involved in active play"). I'd be amazed if that weren't the case elsewhere in the UEFA region.

Again, to bring up the most ludicrous example, a player standing 30 yards offside and directly in front of the goalkeeper so that the keeper cannot see would be offside, whether they tried to play the ball or not.


The extra fun part of this in the case of the Ronaldo goal is he could be classed as committing on offside offence for the first offside position in the first instance, never mind when he played the ball - by "making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball". In the goal as shown, he makes a gesture ahead of him (the old "this is where I want you to play the ball") while between #7 and #20 (no idea who; I really haven't been paying attention to any of it) as he runs into an offside position. Whoever #7 is checks his run, allowing whoever Portugal's #21 is free space behind.

Now... he shouldn't be, because that's just **** defending, but by the law as written his gesture is an obvious action, and it fools the defender, impacting his ability to play the ball. I've never seen this given, but it could be.

A particularly officious set of officials could flag it, but since they didn't notice Germany's first goal being offside until the VAR check, and didn't notice either of the two goals we're talking about with a player offside, that's probably not an accusation we can level at this bunch

 

[Touring Mars]

This is really my interpretation of things too - I don't see how an attacking player (who seconds later scores a goal) can not be construed as "interfering with play" when in a situation like Ronaldo's for the first goal. That said, the rules on what constitutes 'interfering with play' do suggest that there has to be an action involving the ball or intent to play the ball directly from the pass when the player is in an offside position, but it seems pretty clear to me that Ronaldo's intent at that moment was to put himself in a position to score a goal and that is exactly what happened.

-

My Spanish mate is going to Hampden on Tuesday to see Sweden v Ukraine. But for Sweden's late winner against Poland, he would be watching his own country playing, so he is a bit disappointed.

Also, thanks to on-going COVID safety restrictions, he has to be at the stadium 2 hours before kick-off which, apart from being a monumental pain in the backside, also means he will miss the England v Germany game.

 

[Touring Mars]

Damn, Wales have had a tough first half.

After a reasonable start, Denmark started to dominate and then scored a great goal - and now Moore has been booked and will miss the next game should Wales progress, but that is looking a bit unlikely at the moment.

I must admit that I thought Wales would be better thus far, but Denmark are currently well in control.

I have two good friends in Denmark, one of which is football mad but not a massive Denmark fan (he loves Scotland and lives in Belgium), but my ex-boss is Danish and he is a complete fanny, so I'm kind of hoping they get beaten.

Got to love Robson-Kanu's Colemanballs-esque analysis:

The next 45 minutes are going to be pivotal for Wales to get back into the game

-

edit: Oh dear, terrible clearance by Williams practically hands Denmark their second goal. Does Williams get an assist for that?

I guess the next 37 minutes are going to be pivotal for Wales now.

edit 2: Deary me, Wales... they've been murdered tonight.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Wales 0-4 Denmark.

Really disappointing. We started well and had a good spell in the first 10 mins or so but the Danish manager made a switch from three at the back to four and we were stifled and then it was all Denmark, Dolberg's first was a great finish with some nice build up play and it was 1-0 at the break, second goal was bad defending with a poor clearance from Williams straight into Dolberg for 2-0, Maele made it three and Braithwaite made 4-0 and we had Wilson sent off which wasn't a red at all.

We looked tired towards the end and the ref was shocking, but above all else Denmark were brilliant and they definitely deserve to go through.

Gutted. 😩

 

[Dreadmed]

2nd goal, Moore got cleaned out so that was harsh on Wales, as was the straight red... but they only had a 10 minute spell when they were threatening, the Danes had their front line under wraps for most of that.

the ref was shocking

I think Gareth (Bale) would agree with that sentiment. 😬

 

[Jezza819]

Wales 0-4 Denmark.

Really disappointing. We started well and had a good spell in the first 10 mins or so but the Danish manager made a switch from three at the back to four and we were stifled and then it was all Denmark, Dolberg's first was a great finish with some nice build up play and it was 1-0 at the break, second goal was bad defending with a poor clearance from Williams straight into Dolberg for 2-0, Maele made it three and Braithwaite made 4-0 and we had Wilson sent off which wasn't a red at all.

We looked tired towards the end and the ref was shocking, but above all else Denmark were brilliant and they definitely deserve to go through.

Gutted. 😩

That referee had an awful game. Several questionable calls. I would really hope he doesn't get another game in this tournament.

 

[Touring Mars]

Wales were certainly up against it with their fixture locations... training in Portugal, based in Cardiff, two games in Baku (one against Turkey and effectively an away game), away to Italy in Rome and then against Denmark in Holland... at least they made the last 16.

Still, credit to the BBC for taking the opportunity to ask Gareth Bale about his future at the post-match interview... how utterly dumb was that!? 🙄

 

[MUSC4EVER]

I wasn't going to bring it up as it seems like an excuse, but they BBC commentators mentioned before that Wales have traveled over 3,000 miles to play just 4 matches in this Euros and Denmark have traveled 300.

We have been screwed with the venues and schedule, especially when you consider that some nations have had home games, it was a big effort from everyone involved to make it to the knockouts but its seems like we ran out of steam today.

 

[Touring Mars]

I definitely think it's a contributory factor, but then again, home advantage doesn't always count for much either sometimes...

 

[Touring Mars]

This rule about delaying offside flags is becoming farcical now... as if it wasn't already.

 

[dacc10]

What a game by Austria. No matter the result in the end, their second half has been great, shutting everyone up who was saying this was a walk in the park for Italy.

 

[andrea]

Lol classic Alaba

 

[Touring Mars]

A straight red for De Ligt after a VAR upgrade from a yellow... 🟥

Not a great game so far but Czech Republic are acquitting themselves quite well against the Dutch.

-

Being reminded why I don't like Fantasy Football any more - it makes you support teams for all the wrong reasons. I 'wanted' Netherlands to win, keep a clean sheet and for Dumfries and Depay to score and get a few assists... how dumb is that.

Come on you Czechs 👍

-

edit: Lol, this is getting funny now. And it kind of puts Scotland's defeat to Czech Republic into perspective too.

 

[andrea]

Frank the Farmer