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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Liquid, Jul 14, 2016.
I don't blame Romain Grosjean for his accident in Bahrain.
It’s been what? Just over 47 years since François Cevery died quite gruesomely from driving through ARMCO, and yet it is still found at racing tracks the world over?
But agreed to a point. The driving standards of Motorsport in general have been allowed to become so bad in the name of entertainment. That means guys like Grosjean are applauded for making striking moves at the starts. Why the Alpha Tauri was allowed to be at such an odd spot on the circuit. It is exciting, but now Haas F1 is looking for a driver to likely finish out the season. This isn’t the 70s where a drivers death or injury is just part of the sport. Sponsors today don’t like that image of death and injury. And what feeds Motorsport? Lots and lots of sponsors. The higher ups should realize that fine line between entertainment and blood sport is a bubble they don’t want to burst.
I mean that the way I saw it, Grosjean moved right because he saw the slow pack ahead of him. There were two cars dead ahead much slower than he was and the car in front and to the right of him was also moving over into his racing line. He could have rear ended one of three cars and he took an evasive manouver to avoid them and, by nothing more than chance, a car behind happened to be clocked on his right rear tyre.
Honestly, despite the reputation Grosjean has, it was a racing incident for me; it's just one where the cause of the crash was greatly overshadowed by the aftermath of the crash.
Cut Bottas some slack.
Yeah, I said it.
People are expecting way too much from him. He's Lewis Hamilton's teammate. Lewis Hamilton's. That means his job, whether it is literally worded in his contract or not, is to not challenge Hamilton too much and take points away from any potential challengers. We might want someone to be in the same car as Hamilton and give him a challenge but that is absolutely not what Mercedes wants and I'm reasonably sure it's not what Hamilton wants. Think about Hamilton during his times alongside Button and Rosberg; sure, he edged them out more times than not but he was made to work bloody hard for it, possibly too hard given how Hamilton has cruised to his last four titles with an easier teammate.
It's a front-running Formula One team. They've got "their guy" and they build the car around him. Fielding a second car is simply a legal necessity. That's how it works and I'm surprised at some people seemingly failing to accept that in always looking for a reason to lambast Bottas for not being as good as or close to Hamilton. Did you really think that he would be?
I just think Bottas gets an unbelievably disproportionate amount of criticism in a way that, let's say... Johnny Herbert, Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, David Coulthard and Giancarlo Fisichella didn't at various points in time. And three of those names alone were partnered with Michael Schumacher, another top driver known for being literally the only thing that mattered in his team.
Ease up a bit; you'd swear that the combined incarnate of Yuji Ide and Jean-Denis Deletraz was driving the way some people go on. If you're looking for someone to be as equally brilliant alongside Hamilton in the second Mercedes, what sport did you think you were watching for the past four years? Just accept it until someone else takes the seat or until Hamilton retires. It's pretty much a case of if you've nothing nice to say, don't say anything.
And in anticipation of replies to this opinion, no, I don't think Bottas is doing a brilliant job and I don't think he ought to be in that seat. I stress that I think the criticism is disproportionate, not unwarranted.
He is finishing top 2 in the standings the last two seasons. What more can be asked as a number 2 driver? And that is with being told prior to every race (including it seems yesterday’s) to not race the other Mercedes.
I agree, Bottas is criticized too much. But he signed the contract with Mercedes. He knew what he was getting into. The criticism and comparison from the media comparing him with Hamilton’s other teammates.
To add my own point but following on from @Liquid's point, Red Bull don't want Perez to upset the Max camp* and it's for the same reason Mercedes keep Bottas.
*My unpopular motorsport opinion is that Perez is only a good midfield driver and that the Racing Point is a faster car than what even Checo shows. He gets reckless when under pressure (recent example vs Gasly (iirc) in Portimao especially against his team mates (recent example Ocon). He'd get found out at Red Bull.
We've had this whole Perez to a big team thing before. Its like people can't remember 2013. Alright the Mclaren was a dog that year but he didn't exactly outperform Button did he?
That the Button the kept Hamilton extremely honest? You expect someone who was very inexperienced at the time to operate at that level? Cut the guy a bit of slack. He may not be much better than a upper midfield driver, but he wouldn't be the first to flower late.
He'd already 2 years already under his belt which is plenty of enough time for great drivers to show their stuff. I won't cut him slack - I don't think he's any better now than he was in 2013.
I would love to be proved wrong and for him to be alongside Max. Perez's experience would at least give Mercedes a second Red Bull to think about.
Bottas is struggling to keep with one of the top 5 fastest drivers of all time, of course he's going to struggle! Anyone will struggle against Hamilton unless they're on his level. All the Sakhir Grand Prix did was prove that Russell has star quality, not that Bottas - the guy who qualified on pole remember - is terrible.
As I said in the Sakhir thread, Bottas would be great in a midfield team, and does enough in a top team that they don't need to replace him. Hamilton has won the titles with ease and Bottas isn't miles off him and (contrary to what people say) does push Hamilton to drive his best to stay ahead. He's reliable and brings the car home - the complete opposite of Verstappen who still likes to get involved in stupid, meaningless crashes. Bottas might not be able to pick his way back through the pack well, but he gets into that situation so infrequently I don't think Mercedes really care that much.
Yes, now Russell has proved himself he should replace Bottas ASAP, but it's not like Red Bull, where Albon is miles off the pace, Bottas is doing enough to keep the seat because he is still quick.
Remember that he is having to go up against the best qualifier of all time, and is often very close to beating him. Put him in the Williams and he would have scored a point this season.
2010-2013 F1 cars looked fantastic. They also had some of the best sounds with the blown diffuser.
I like Bottas as a person, he just seems like an all around nice guy. From what I can tell, he also did get shafted by his streak of unluckiness for the past four races in a row, and then some heading further back the calendar, usually due to damage of some sort. With that said, he has also botched his start for a couple races now, sending him into the pack behind from either the front row or pole position, where he struggles to overtake. I don't know how easy of a "fix" it is to improve one's race pace, but I always like to root for the underdog.
I prefer wheel to wheel battles in the dry like Brazil 2019 rather than wet chaos like Germany 2019 (F1)
Brazil was boring until the Safety Cars
Vettel is the most overrated driver of all time.
Is Ferrari the most overrated team of all time?
Eh... I think Vettel falls into the Fernando Alonso side of things. Obviously could wheel a car, but could not communicate what was needed for the team to build him a fast race car. Also, he is seemingly so mentally fragile that once a teammate was allowed to compete, he’d just wilt.
If Vettel's history shows anything, it is that Mark Webber was a much better driver than anyone wants to give credit to.
Yes, I know Vettel had Raikkonen as a teammate for a big chunk of his Ferrari run, but I feel Kimi was never fully committed to F1 on his return. Though, to be fair, Kimi has never really left one with a sense he was truly committed to anything.
But ultimately the rules at the time catered to what Red Bull had created, and the likes of McLaren and Ferrari just could not counter during those years. I thought the 4 year stretch was going to be such dominance we would never see again. Well, wasn’t I wrong?
The other question Vettel’s Ferrari career has raised is, what kind of team is Ferrari? Is Leclerc truly destined to just be the next Massa?
Overall, I’m not sure I would call Vettel a top 10 all time driver, but overrated? Wasn’t until the tifosi got ahold of him did I feel the media ramped up coverage of him.
4 World Championships says otherwise. A decent driver can fall lucky and win a championship when all the planets align or when better drivers fall over themselves to loose one, but 4?
Vettel is fragile and needs everything to be in his favour, otherwise he can look very average.
I wouldn't class him as one of the top 10 drivers of all time, but then outside of Germany i don't think many would.
I think it's very disrespectful towards Alonso to say Vettel is similar to him. Alonso continued to impress and get the most out of cars that weren't at the top. Alonso never had the best car over a whole season, other than 2007. Vettel instead squandered 2009, 2017 and 2018 mostly with his own failures. 2017 was probably the one that Lewis would've won either way, but 2009 and 2018 were shocking performances. Other than those season, 2014, 2016, 2019 and 2020 also shown how average Vettel really is. The one true strength he has/had was qualify in P1 and then manage the race from there. But he couldn't even do that in 2018, so yeah. He can count himself lucky that AM picked him up, a driver with such horrific performances is normally gone for good.
Mark pre broken leg would've been a much closer teammate to Seb, he never was the same after that incident. The fact that 2009 and 2010 was as close as it was comes down to Vettel making a mistake at every 4th race or so. And he never got better at this, he became even more error prone with the V6 era.
Vettel isn't even in the top 20, there are 5 other drivers who haven't even won a WDC that are much, much better than him.
Even many fellow Germans dislike Seb. He was the bratty teenager once who got his ass kissed left and right by RB, and the minute he gets beat by a better teammate he flees.
I give him two WDCs, 2010 and 2012, even though he did his best to throw those two away as well. 2011 and 2013 can't even count, RB was even more dominant than Mercedes in those years. 2013 especially, every team already gave up because of the new regulations and the tyre farce that happened after Silverstone made it one of the worst seasons of all time.
Vettel man, I definitely find it stupid at times how he's gotten a lot of pity for not having a car with a stable rear end whenever he spins it and throws away races (many examples now), or gets levels of pity for his 2017 title run being cut short through little fault of his own, the likes of which Alonso was not always allowed for his 2010 and 2012 runs. Some might say he struggles to drive like a champion if his car doesn't have one of the best rear ends on the grid like in the blown diffuser days.
Then there's the fact that he's avoiding a lot of stick for getting whooped by Leclerc and in his last year at Red Bull by Ricciardo, not to say they're better than him, but Alonso, who if you can't tell by now I'm a big fan of, still gets flak for 2007 being "beaten" by a rookie, or Hamilton still having 2016 and 2011 as stains on his legacy for many.
But he's definitely not the most overrated driver of all time, because I think he's still generally regarded as being behind all the greats past or present that he really is behind. I think in terms of all time rankings, most people put him behind Hamilton, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Lauda, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Alonso, while being regarded more highly than the likes of Mansell, Raikkonen, Rosberg (father and son), Piquet, Hakkinen, and others, which is fair in general.
Vettel was also very successful in the race of champions along side Schumacher (6 in a row). But also triumphed individually.
The single biggest influence on Vettel winning his 4 titles at Red Bull, is one Helmut Marko.
He was Helmut's golden child & that gave him a free pass to do what he pleased, with a car built specifically to suit his driving style.
Mark Webber admitted the blown diffuser suited Seb more than him & when you're fighting the other side of the garage with one hand tied behind your back, a lame, spineless Team Manager in Horner that gets ignored (Multi 21 incident), preferential treatment with new parts even if you break your own, and the best car in the field, it's no wonder he won those titles. He had no opposition.
For all those reasons, that is why I look back on the 2014 season & the ass-kicking he got from Danny Ric with such glee.
People who say Vettel is overrated didn't see last half of 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017 and the first half of 2018. Vettel came 2nd in the WDC when it was was decided with an upgraded F14-T (definitely would've won in a Mercedes). Would've won 2017 if not for Ferrari's ******** in the Asian part with an inferior car (don't say anything about Singapore, any sane driver would've done the same thing in his situation). He completely obliterated everyone in 2013 and won in a Toro Rosso exclusively on merit.
To say he's not an all time great is purely ********, the only thing he lacks is car adaptability.
Does this seriously censor swearwords? Lol
Alrighty then you have fun with that, but all I need to show you is...
Vettel is the worst roulette player ever, can't spin to win to save his life^
The Toro Rosso at Monza was literally the best car. I don’t see anyone hailing Maldonado as the best driver ever for winning in a Williams in 2012 but people keep spinning that Monza win as some kind of fairytale. All Vettel had to do was not crash.
Yeah and no bud, any sane driver doesn’t pull such an aggressive move at the start of Singapore. That’s why Hamilton won in 2017 and 2018 because he didn’t do any such stupid moves and kept it clean.
Yeah, obliterating everyone in a year where your car was the only one that could compete with the changed tyres. Such an achievement lmao
That’s literally THE reason WHY he’s not an all time great. If you need every single thing down to your liking and can’t perform otherwise you’re just a good driver in certain conditions. Hamilton, Alonso, MSC, Prost, Senna etc. all succeeded and performed in various teams and circumstances. The moment the planted V8s and blown diffusors are gone Vettel keeps underperforming and spinning every season. He was a one time wonder and couldn’t win in 2017 and 2018 when Ferrari was better. Stop saying the Mercedes was better, every single expert said Alonso would’ve won both those titles. I don’t see anyone saying the Red Bull was bad because Albon sucked in it, that was down to the driver. Same story for Vettel.
If you think Vettel's win at Monza in 2008 was unimpressive, you're simply wrong.
You can't say "Nope, someone else would have done that" every time. You've got to give people their dues.
Yeah, Man United scored two injury time goals to win the Champions League but it's pure luck, any team could have done that.
Sure, Vladimir Klitschko dominated heavyweight boxing for over a decade but if I had his build, I could have done it too.
Okay, Laurent Aiello won the BTCC in his debut season but he was driving the superior Nissan, any driver could have done that.
Any driver could have done what he did but not every driver did that, he did. And if you want to compare it to Maldonado's win, that's absurd. Vettel backed up a fluke win with further success, Maldonado didn't.
For me, on the subject of Sebastian Vettel, these two statements nail it. He's superb when things click, less than superb when things don't. You don't need to meticulously inspect every detail further.
If you think Ferrari was better in 2017 or 2018 you're just delusional. Mercedes were just better in the whole of 2017 and Ferrari were nowhere in the second half of 2018. Plus Vettel had had to constantly question Ferrari's strategies on the fly (which Hamilton also does, but in a perfectly harmonious team). To say Vettel is a one trick pony is ridiculous considering the fact he would've cruised to the championship in 2015/17 if he had a Mercedes.
I won't even comment on the first half of your comment because it's just pure ********.
If you wanna disregard Vettel's because of the car you can disregard 6 of Hamilton's and 5 of Schumi's, which no person with half a brain would do
Lewis Hamilton is better than Alonso. Comfortably. Hamilton would have won in 2017 and 18 easily even against an Alonso who isn't as high and mighty as some people seem to hold him.
Just goes to show this guy has no idea what he's talking about
I think F1 should do an annual fastest driver test where they give them all 10 laps in a road car to see who's actually the quickest.
Put them in a McLaren 720 or Ferrari 488 and just see who can pull it out. I think we could find some good surprises