V-10 vs V-12

  • Thread starter Thread starter TheToad263
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Reliability will be understandably questionable for the new F1 engines early on,as it`s a new engine formula and you will probably find engines popping all over the place until they workout the weakest links in each manufactors engine and sort it out. Remember the switch from V10 to V8 had motors letting go regurlarly,now the V8`s never blow up.
 
Yeah, it's all part of the development process. As an engineer, I really enjoy seeing how the teams are able to adapt to new developments. This year should be really interesting with the addition of KERS and the adjustable rear wing.

That's the beauty of F1, even though it is heavily regulated, there is still room for innovation. Sadly, not many motorsport categories allow this anyone
 
Haha, yeah maybe a little bit harsh but I guess you know which side of the fence I sit on... Apologies to any hippies out there
 
While i don't like the 'back to the stone age' greenies i do think that kangaroos are nice so no animal cruelty please. :p
 
While i don't like the 'back to the stone age' greenies i do think that kangaroos are nice so no animal cruelty please. :p

No cruelty to kangaroos intended, and no I won't post a link to the Jim Richards Bathurst incident...

But seriously, Formula 1 do what they have to do to at least appear environmentally responsible. Whether its a load of BS or not, they have to do their part too. The last thing we want is for them to come under pressure from the enviros
 
some cars have V10s instead of V12s for the same reason that some cars have I4s instead of I6s. it's cheaper, it's more efficient and it's lighter. it's also less powerful, though, and that's why many cars have V12s instead of V10s.

Everyone seems to be assuming that the V12 has more displacement than the V10.

If both engines have the same displacement, the V12 will breathe better and be able to rev higher (since the cylinders of a V12 are smaller for a given displacement than those of a V10, the pistons and connecting rods will be lighter, as will the valves, this means the mass will be more easily controlled and theoretical redline will be higher since there be less strain on the reciprocating components). The ability to rev higher and the better breathing will allow more top-end power, but will generally reduce low-end torque.

Now, the V12 will have slightly more internal friction, but overall the ability to rev higher will ultimately increase the power if all else is equal between the two engines.

You are correct that the V10 is cheaper (by virtue of having fewer parts), but it's actually slightly less efficient in terms of HP. Weight is up in the air because while the V10 has fewer pieces, the individual pieces of the V12, while more numerous, are also lighter on a per-piece basis. All else being equal, the V12 would probably weigh very slightly more, but I doubt it would be enough to really make much practical difference.
 
There are good cases for both 10 and 12 but I guess it comes down to packaging as well, smaller car is always preferable.
 
Everyone seems to be assuming that the V12 has more displacement than the V10.

If both engines have the same displacement, the V12 will breathe better and be able to rev higher (since the cylinders of a V12 are smaller for a given displacement than those of a V10, the pistons and connecting rods will be lighter, as will the valves, this means the mass will be more easily controlled and theoretical redline will be higher since there be less strain on the reciprocating components). The ability to rev higher and the better breathing will allow more top-end power, but will generally reduce low-end torque.

Now, the V12 will have slightly more internal friction, but overall the ability to rev higher will ultimately increase the power if all else is equal between the two engines.

You are correct that the V10 is cheaper (by virtue of having fewer parts), but it's actually slightly less efficient in terms of HP. Weight is up in the air because while the V10 has fewer pieces, the individual pieces of the V12, while more numerous, are also lighter on a per-piece basis. All else being equal, the V12 would probably weigh very slightly more, but I doubt it would be enough to really make much practical difference.

Well put 👍 I tried to explain that earlier on but didn't go into as much detail
 
I'm not really seeing why this thread is actually in the GT5 section as opposed to our Automotive section, so unless somebody can provide a valid reason, it will either be closed or moved over there...
 
V12's are inherently balanced, they don't require any sort of balance shafts unlike V10s.

And in my humble opinion, nothing can beat the sound of a screaming V12 (thinks of the old F1 cars:drool:)
 
mod... just imagine the title was v10 vs v12 in gt5... now can you leave it alone? people seem to be enjoying the discussion... so who cares if its technically in the right spot.... something ill never understand about this site. some peeps are just too ocd i suppose.
 
In australia they hit kangaroos on purpose though.

wtf really? i mean thats bad not only for the kangaroos but for the cars too. i mean if you want to kill a kangaroo use a 10 cent 106 round instead of a 1000 fender....
 
wtf really? i mean thats bad not only for the kangaroos but for the cars too. i mean if you want to kill a kangaroo use a 10 cent 106 round instead of a 1000 fender....

That's what the bull bars are for. That, and smashing hippies.

Oh, as far is the sound concerned... Viper V10. Yeah.
 
After the Turboengines got banned in F1 in the year 88, big manufacturers like Honda und Ferrari have decided use a V12 engine, while -correct me if im wrong- Renault used a V10.

Ok, the Mclaren cars were rocket ships and Ferrari was pretty equal to them in 90, but it changed in 92, when the Williams Renault cars with their V10 engines started to dominate.
And yes, even the Benettons powerd by a V8 cosworth/ford engine were superior the V12 Mclaren-Honda and the Ferraris. And in 95, Benetton dropped the Ford engine for the V10 Renault. In 96, Ferrari dropped the V12 for a V10 engine.

Maybe it was all due to the F1 regs, but I think that there must be a reason why all teams started to stick with the V10 engines.
 
Everyone seems to be assuming that the V12 has more displacement than the V10.

If both engines have the same displacement, the V12 will breathe better and be able to rev higher (since the cylinders of a V12 are smaller for a given displacement than those of a V10, the pistons and connecting rods will be lighter, as will the valves, this means the mass will be more easily controlled and theoretical redline will be higher since there be less strain on the reciprocating components). The ability to rev higher and the better breathing will allow more top-end power, but will generally reduce low-end torque.

Now, the V12 will have slightly more internal friction, but overall the ability to rev higher will ultimately increase the power if all else is equal between the two engines.

You are correct that the V10 is cheaper (by virtue of having fewer parts), but it's actually slightly less efficient in terms of HP. Weight is up in the air because while the V10 has fewer pieces, the individual pieces of the V12, while more numerous, are also lighter on a per-piece basis. All else being equal, the V12 would probably weigh very slightly more, but I doubt it would be enough to really make much practical difference.

Yes! Finally. To elaborate on your "breathes better" remark, the reason is the total valve area can be much higher for a given displacement. Assuming the same bore is used, the valve area goes up by 20% for a given combustion chamber design. Using the same stroke, the valve area will be roughly the same, so there is no immediate drawback there (except maybe extra flow losses in the cylinder head, per cylinder.)

Another thing is that stroke-determined torque can be the same in comparable V10s and V12s, but the reciprocating mass per cylinder is still lower in the V12 (given the bore must be smaller to meet the same displacement) so the engine can still (potentially) rev higher. The better breathing could also improve mid-range torque, for the same stroke.

The biggest problem with V12s, especially at higher rpm (F1), is the internal friction - it robs power as to the square of the engine speed - because a V12 has a higher total bearing area and piston ring length than the equivalent V10. Longer camshafts can cause timing problems, too, as the shaft "winds up" - although that's less applicable to F1 these days. Straight sixes have tended to drive their cam shafts from the middle, rather than an end, to compensate. This obviously adds servicing complications.


A note on balance: V12s do have excellent balance - although all V engines have a rocking couple from side-to-side due to the cylinder offsets in the engine, and a slight "barrel roll" due to the bank angle. V10s have another rocking couple inherited from the straight 5, which is end-to-end, like a three cylinder - hence the need for a balance shaft.

All engines have higher order vibrations due to the non-sinusoidal motion of the pistons and rods (crank and slider).
The three 120° crank offsets in a V12 produce a vibration at 6 times the crank frequency and at (2 / 10 000) times the magnitude of a single.
The five 144° offsets in the V10 crank (non-split pin) produces a vibration at ten times the crank frequency and at (7.5 / 10 000) times the magnitude of a single.
By comparison, a straight four has a vibration at twice the crank frequency and (4 / 10) times the magnitude of a single, so it is still very noticeable - hence the need for a balance shaft with higher displacements.

The magnitude comparisons are calculated for the same individual piston mass, i.e. the total piston mass increases with cylinder count and corresponds to engines with the same bore and stroke dimensions.

I'm not really seeing why this thread is actually in the GT5 section as opposed to our Automotive section, so unless somebody can provide a valid reason, it will either be closed or moved over there...

All V12s are pretty badly reproduced, sonically, in GT5 whilst the V10s are fairly well represented in this regard - I can't think of much else, though.
 
engine sizes do not do not matter wieght and power balance from the car is important but whats really hilarious is that american v8s are bigger than some v12s that are made but engine cylinders in some does not matter its the way you get power by v10 has a advantage due to its versitility and lightwieght but v12s have more capablilties than a v10 and its better at getting a lot more power also you can get more torque if you place the cylinders and pistons different
 
@Griffith, good post. And I agree with the sound thing in GT5 (to keep it on topic). The only two V10's I have are the LP560-4 and the LFA but they both sound spot on. Although I have to say the LP640 doesn't sound too bad and the Zonda R sounds incredible.

As for Formula 1 regulations, it is more a cost and environmental thing than anything else. Power is all but capped these days, (unlike the days when I4 turbo's were putting out up to 1500hp in qualifying trim!) so the engine configuration doesn't matter so much. While I miss the scream of the Ferrari V12, the turbo 4's will still sound incredible. 700hp coming out of any engine sounds incredible.

To prove my point, have a listen to this year's WRC cars. They only put out around 300hp from a 1.6 litre but listen to that thing! Love the backfire 👍

 
mod... just imagine the title was v10 vs v12 in gt5... now can you leave it alone? people seem to be enjoying the discussion... so who cares if its technically in the right spot.... something ill never understand about this site. some peeps are just too ocd i suppose.

Because the vast majority of this discussion isn't actually about GT5, but about the real life differences between the two engine layouts? I enjoy the discussion as well, but there's a reason we have numerous sub-forums here. The opposite of laziness is not automatically OCD.

Speaking of the former, a little more Shift key wouldn't go amiss.
 
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