We put a freaking probe on Titan!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Danoff
  • 70 comments
  • 1,781 views
And once again, Famine's massive brain works us all :dopey:

I was gonna say something like that, but you got the numbers to back it up, I don't.

But Hydrogen is a bit odd... its not quite a metal. It is I mean, but it behaves a little differently. Its beena bi since I did my advanced chem stuff though :indiff:

But yeah, pressure is entirely the reason for lots of stuff being in a solid state.

Similar craziness exists on uranus or Neptune..... with it postulated that it rains diamonds as a result of pressure...
 
So hydrogen is actually considered a metal? I'd always heard in chem class that it was in it's own group, since it's properties are very uncommon compared to the other elements.
 
Famine
Hydrogen IS a metal.

Check your Periodic Table. Which side does Hydrogen appear on?

It's pressure that causes the solidification, not temperature. Hydrogen forms a solid at 14 Kelvin (more accurately -259.14 Celsius, since Kelvin is a measure of energy change), and a liquid at 20.3L (-252.87C) - so I don't know where 33K came from - at standard pressure (101.5kPa). However, at 1.4 million times that pressure, metallic hydrogen will form at about 3000K.

http://www-phys.llnl.gov/H_Div/GG/metalhydrofact.html
Click to expand...
But, in every Periodic table I've loked at, Hydrogen is listed as a non-metal. It is on the metal side, but is shown as a non-metal.

The website I went to listen 33K as the Critical Temperature of hydrogen, so If the core was any warmer than 33k, the hydrogen could not be in solid state.
 
The periodic table is organized by Valence electrons/protons (atomic number) and atomic mass, not by proprties and characteristics. Thats why Hydrogen and the silicon staircase is put where it is.
 
Errr...

It's also organised by properties and characteristics...

The left side of the table are metals. The right side are non-metals (to the right of that nice dividing line you refer to as the Silicon Staircase).


Check group 1... Lithium. Lithium is a soft metal, which you can cut with a knife. It reveals a shiny surface which tarnishes in air. Place it in water and it floats, then reacts violently, forming an alkali (Lithium hydroxide) and hydrogen gas, which combusts.

Next down the group is sodium. Sodium is a soft metal which you can cut with a knife. It reveals a shiny surface which tarnishes in air, even quicker than lithium's does. Place it in water and it floats, then reacts even more violently, forming an alkali (Sodium hydroxide) and hydrogen gas, which combusts.

Next down is potassium. Potassium is a very soft metal which you can cut with a knife. It reveals a shiny surface which tarnishes in air, almost instantly, in fact. Place it in water and it floats, reacts even more violently, melts due to the heat of the reaction, forming an alkali (Potassium hydroxide) and hydrogen gas, which combusts. It may, in sufficient quantities, explode in the course of this reaction.

Next down is caesium. Caesium is a very soft metal which you can cut with a knife. It reveals a shiny surface which tarnishes in air instantly. Place it in water and it floats, reacts even more violently, melts due to the heat of the reaction, forming an alkali (Caesium hydroxide) and hydrogen gas, which combusts. It will explode in the course of this reaction.

Last up is Francium. Francium does not exist in the natural world, as it has a half-life measurable in millionths of a second. However, in contact with water it will explode extremely violently (it has been postulated that 2.5g of Francium, dropped into the Pacific Ocean will explode with sufficient force to blow the Moon up).


All of the metals in group 1 have the same properties, increasing in reactivity as you move down the rows. This is why they were originally grouped together. Further, more recent physics experiments have shown that they all have a single electron in the outermost electron energy shell.

So in fact the Periodic Table IS organised by atomic number, mass number and elemental properties.

And hydrogen is still a metal - one electron in the outermost energy shell...
 
Famine
(it has been postulated that 2.5g of Francium, dropped into the Pacific Ocean will explode with sufficient force to blow the Moon up)
Click to expand...
That´s better than the Gay Bomb. 👍
 
Making enough of it - and keeping it stable - would be a fun job.

Checking up on it, there's an isotope which lives for 22 minutes... Criminey!

"Francium occurs as a result of a disintegration of actinium. Francium is found in uranium minerals, and can be made artificially by bombarding thorium with protons. It is the most unstable of the first 101 elements. The longest lived isotope, 223Fr, a daughter of 227Ac, has a half-life of 22 minutes. This is the only isotope of francium occurring in nature, but at most there is only 20-30 g of the element present in the earth's crust at any one time. No weighable quantity of the element has been prepared or isolated. There are about 20 known isotopes."
 
Famine

And hydrogen is still a metal - one electron in the outermost energy shell...
Click to expand...
But what makes you say 1 valence electron makes an element a metal? There are exceptions to the organization of the periodic table. Hydrogen may be in the Alkali Metal family, but that doesn't make it an Alkali metal. Plus, I've seen periodic tables where Hydrogen is next to Helium with the other non-metals. My Chemistry book even has it on both the left and right side. It can't be both a meatl and non-metal...
 
There are also about 7 different periodic tables of elements, and the years in which they were made also has a lot to do with it, considering that breaktroughs in science are happening every day. And wouldn't it be expected that since the periodic table is organized by atomic number that the elements in a particular column would have similar characteristics? That doesn't mean they're arranged according to reactivity or physical/chemcical properties.
 
Event Horizon
But what makes you say 1 valence electron makes an element a metal? There are exceptions to the organization of the periodic table. Hydrogen may be in the Alkali Metal family, but that doesn't make it an Alkali metal. Plus, I've seen periodic tables where Hydrogen is next to Helium with the other non-metals. My Chemistry book even has it on both the left and right side. It can't be both a meatl and non-metal...
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with Famine and say Hydrogen is a metal, it conducts electricity ( a bit of a give away for metals ;)) in its solid state, and will even do this as a liquid in the form of H+ ions. Don't drop the toaster in the bath :lol:...I do tell people that pure water won't conduct, that it has to be ionised, but I've yet to try that one out with a large voltage ;) ( Break down voltage is about 50v for water )

Having said that...I'm not sure about 1 electron in the outer shell being the definition of a metal, as a lot of the transition elements have two, and they are for sure metals...take my favourite Titanium 2,8,10,2

Anyway...well done for landing a probe in a short turn around mission. NASA have taken some huge knocks recently and our own poor Beagle together have not done well for space exploration.

The main attraction from Titan is its organic seas...very interesting...are we going to fing complex organic molecules :)
 
PublicSecrecy
There are also about 7 different periodic tables of elements, and the years in which they were made also has a lot to do with it, considering that breaktroughs in science are happening every day. And wouldn't it be expected that since the periodic table is organized by atomic number that the elements in a particular column would have similar characteristics? That doesn't mean they're arranged according to reactivity or physical/chemcical properties.
Click to expand...
All things were taken into account when organizing the periodic table. Boiling/Melting point, reactivity, atomic size, electronegativity, etc. This is fact. However, all these properties are related to electron configuration and the nucleic contents. Obviously, the fathers of the table couldn't know everything about every element, so some trends turned out to be coincidence, but when they made it, they were able to predict elements that weren't yet discovered at its creation. They knew a fair deal about these trends. With all of this, one can assume that the periodic table is arranged by properties. (Atomic number and mass are properties, too, you know.)

But there are always exceptions, like in the case of Hydrogen not being a metal. One obvious exception is that there are multiple exceptions to the trend of increasing average atomic mass. Look at Copper (Cu) and Zinc (Zn). Zn, despite having a larger atomic number, has a smaller average atomic mass.
 
Seeing as how Famine's a scientist (like, a real one), I think he knows what he's talking about…
 
Sage
Seeing as how Famine's a scientist (like, a real one), I think he knows what he's talking about…
Click to expand...
You never know. I found a site with exactly what Famine said in the exact words... He must just be a lazy scientist.

I did a quick googling myself and found some interesting info about metallic hydrogen. It's never been made before, due to the extreme conditions required for its existance. I've decided to believe this: It is not a metal. It only displays metallic properties when under extreme pressure and low temperatures. It's not really a metal. It's metal-like at these extremes.

But what I'm confused about is that when they got close to achieving its metallic form, the Hydrogen was at 100K. They'd never get it to be a solid with just additional pressure. They think that with another 100 gigapascals or so, they'd be able to get it into its metal state. Unless it's colder than 33K, it cannot exist in its solid state. Period
 
Event Horizon
You never know. I found a site with exactly what Famine said in the exact words... He must just be a lazy scientist.

I did a quick googling myself and found some interesting info about metallic hydrogen. It's never been made before, due to the extreme conditions required for its existance. I've decided to believe this: It is not a metal. It only displays metallic properties when under extreme pressure and low temperatures. It's not really a metal. It's metal-like at these extremes.

But what I'm confused about is that when they got close to achieving its metallic form, the Hydrogen was at 100K. They'd never get it to be a solid with just additional pressure. They think that with another 100 gigapascals or so, they'd be able to get it into its metal state. Unless it's colder than 33K, it cannot exist in its solid state. Period
Click to expand...

What is your definition of a metal? Freely looses electrons, conducts electricity...*cough* H+

Or do you mean "shiny thing"
 
Event Horizon
Unless it's colder than 33K, it cannot exist in its solid state. Period
Click to expand...
Why can't you get it through your head that it can, that's just the temperature it needs at Standard pressure, with additional pressure (say the pressure you get at the core of a planet) it is forced to go to it's solid state, at almost any temperature.

Remember, atoms, like people, are lazy. They will do the thing that requires the least energy, and under huge amounts of pressure, it's much easier for it to be in a solid state.

Blake
 
Blake
Why can't you get it through your head that it can, that's just the temperature it needs at Standard pressure, with additional pressure (say the pressure you get at the core of a planet) it is forced to go to it's solid state, at almost any temperature.

Remember, atoms, like people, are lazy. They will do the thing that requires the least energy, and under huge amounts of pressure, it's much easier for it to be in a solid state.

Blake
Click to expand...
It's proven that when a substance is at a higher temperature than its critical temperature, it cannot be in its solid state, no matter how much pressure is applied. That is the definition of critical temperature.
 
This is getting interesting. I'll have to dig up texts on chemistry... I have no idea where they are at the moment. My reference tool for particle physics didn't provide any help off hand, so I'll need some more serious reference tools :p
 
lmao look at the advertisements!
[Edit] (since it changes every refresh)
-oxygen books
-atmospheric pressure books
- distant planets
-free GT4
 
Oxygen $21.95 Wholesale
Oxygen Elements direct to you today Hydroxygen. Detoxify and oxygenate.

Global Health Trax
Threllac Candida Defense & all GHT Prods Wholesale - 60 days Guarantee

Oxygen Elements
Oxygen Elements for sale. aff Check out the deals now!

Threelac - Wholesale
Buy Threelac, Oxygen Elements Plus at Wholesale. Get other products

:indiff:

I'm going to have to follow suite and dig up my chem books, I'll be back with some ammunition in a little while.

Blake
 
Event Horizon
But what makes you say 1 valence electron makes an element a metal? There are exceptions to the organization of the periodic table. Hydrogen may be in the Alkali Metal family, but that doesn't make it an Alkali metal. Plus, I've seen periodic tables where Hydrogen is next to Helium with the other non-metals. My Chemistry book even has it on both the left and right side. It can't be both a meatl and non-metal...
Click to expand...

All elements with a single electron in the outermost energy shell are metals.

That's not the same thing as all metals have a single electron in the outermost energy shell, Tacet... :D

Newlands originally arranged his Periodic Table by elemental properties. He noted a "periodic repetition" of properties but included a few non-elements and didn't think to leave any gaps. Mendeleev's table left gaps, allowing for undiscovered elements - even predicting their properties - melting point, boiling point, state at STP - based on other elements in their group.


The fact that something is a metal also doesn't mean it's a solid, EH. Mercury, for instance... However, solid hydrogen HAS been postulated as forming the core of Jupiter. What other conditions this suggests are not currently available to me - or of interest at the moment. Nonetheless, hydrogen IS a metal and will metallise at 1.4 GigaPascals and 3000K in a laboratory.


And lastly, anything anyone's found on the internet which uses the exact same words as you've found written by me will have been contained between quote marks here. The Francium part, for a start.
 
Famine
All elements with a single electron in the outermost energy shell are metals.

That's not the same thing as all metals have a single electron in the outermost energy shell, Tacet... :D
Click to expand...
Well that does make more sense.

Looks like it landed on a flat area.
_40725701_titan220.jpg

Pic taken from 8km up.
_40725697_probe300.jpg
 
Tacet, that black and white picture shows a shoreline of what they think is a lake of liquid methane.

The probe is dead at this point, but it certainly did send back some really cool pictures (and data that I don't understand). I think the probe was only supposed to last a few hours or something - and it lasted longer than they expected. Cassini is still hanging out around Saturn taking data though.

The mars rovers are still going too. They've been on Mars for over a year now and they're still rolling around checking stuff out.
 
Dead! Poor thing.

Those pics were from saturday, the lanscape one from 8km shows a shoreline with the consistency of "creme brulee" :lol:

"The loss of the data channel has resulted in about 350 images being returned by the probe instead of over 700. "

"The European Space Agency said it would launch an enquiry into the loss of one of two information channels during transmission of the probe's data.

But overall the mission has been a resounding success, scientists agreed."


At least it did actually land, the boulders in the first shot are thought to be ice blocks.
 
Famine
All elements with a single electron in the outermost energy shell are metals.

That's not the same thing as all metals have a single electron in the outermost energy shell, Tacet... :D

Newlands originally arranged his Periodic Table by elemental properties. He noted a "periodic repetition" of properties but included a few non-elements and didn't think to leave any gaps. Mendeleev's table left gaps, allowing for undiscovered elements - even predicting their properties - melting point, boiling point, state at STP - based on other elements in their group.


The fact that something is a metal also doesn't mean it's a solid, EH. Mercury, for instance... However, solid hydrogen HAS been postulated as forming the core of Jupiter. What other conditions this suggests are not currently available to me - or of interest at the moment. Nonetheless, hydrogen IS a metal and will metallise at 1.4 GigaPascals and 3000K in a laboratory.


And lastly, anything anyone's found on the internet which uses the exact same words as you've found written by me will have been contained between quote marks here. The Francium part, for a start.
Click to expand...

I guess it's just hard for me to go against everything I have been taught about hydrogen and metals to say hydrogen is a metal. It has more non-metal than metal properties (such as a very low boiling and melting point) and I've never heard it referred to as a metal. I just don't think that one of the definitions of a metal should be that it has 1 electron in the outermost energy level. That's just too general.
 
Hydrogen is a metal. Oxygen is a gas. H2O = water. What happens when another metal is combined with oxygen? What happens when Hydrogen is combined with another gas?
 
PublicSecrecy
Hydrogen is a metal. Oxygen is a gas. H2O = water. What happens when another metal is combined with oxygen? What happens when Hydrogen is combined with another gas?
Click to expand...
Oxygen can be a liquid or a solid or a gas. It is a non-metal. :)

When Hydrogen pairs with a non-metal, it most of the time forms an Ionic Compound, which, when dissolved in water, is an acid.
 
hmm...

so what is Carbolic Acid?
.................Sulfuric Acid?
.................Hydrochloric Acid?

So, oxygen is only a gas when combined with other elements to form a gas molecule? What is oxygen on its own then?

[Edit] All of which is to be considered under 8lb's of pressure and 21 degrees centegrate. [Edit]
 

Latest Posts

Back