Welp. Someone has to say it.... (AI thread)

  • Thread starter Thread starter blademask
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RedSuinit
So, what is wrong with the AI in the latest video? The fact that the guy driving took a terrible line, tried to attempt a terrible pass, at speeds that were too high. Then he tried to crowd the AI's line, and the AI did not relenquish his position. What's wrong with that? I mean really? Do you really think that in real life racing you would get away with **** like that? You're wrong. The AI was fine, and performed BEAUTIFULLY in that latest video. Anyone who complains is delusional and believes that in real life someone is just going to get out of your way when you try and make a terrible pass, and crowd their line. 👎 You all fail.
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The A.I doesn't notice his vehicle is driving on the track. Which is what the problem always was. Its a car simulation, so I don't compare it to real life. In Other car simulations, vehicles recognize theres another vehicle on the track. There is literally no disputing this. Its really that simple.

I would ask you how it performed beautifully, but I doubt you could elaborate. The cars in GT never budged, but its not because there is any thinking behind the A.I, its because its not aware theres another car on the road.
 
IsmokeGT
Whining was a strong word, but this has been brought up several times, and in numerous threads.

Concerning the other features people were vocal about:
Sound- can only be improved, it can not be replaced.
Cockpits- "
Damage- "

AI can be replaced with humans. And I am not saying it shouldn't be improved, but starting threads on a demo's lackluster AI is a little over the top in my eyes.
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Still. Is asking that A.I is aware of a player vehicle whining, complaining, trolling? Or any word you want to use to describe it. Because you just disregarded it totally, as most are doing. I'm not demanding state of the art A.I, the basic feature of seeing the player on a track has been in games since before bluray.

I started the thread because nothing has changed significantly as far as the A.I is concerned, while everything else has been significantly upgraded. And its obvious. I questioned the reasoning behind this to discuss, and some have brought up good points.

I feel like if people can use Demo's to get excited about new features, why can't they be used to highlight that one of the most recurring problems still appears to be quite evident in all of the demo's since GT4?
 
blademask
The A.I doesn't notice his vehicle is driving on the track. Which is what the problem always was. Its a car simulation, so I don't compare it to real life. In Other car simulations, vehicles recognize theres another vehicle on the track. There is literally no disputing this. Its really that simple.

I would ask you how it performed beautifully, but I doubt you could elaborate. The cars in GT never budged, but its not because there is any thinking behind the A.I, its because its not aware theres another car on the road.
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Wrong. The AI is holding it's line. The one sitting in front of the TV is the one ignoring the AI, he is STEERING INTO the AI, and pushing it of the track, the AI simply tried to hold on. That's not a problem with the AI, that's a problem with the one in front of the TV. The AI did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do. I ask again, do you really think that in real life you would be able to take that kind of line, attempt a terrible pass, attempt to SHOVE another driver off of their line, and then the other driver is just going to back off and GIVE you thier position?! That's ludicrous and CRAZY! Wake up and stop looking for things to complain about.
 
RedSuinit
The AI was fine, and performed BEAUTIFULLY in that latest video. Anyone who complains is delusional and believes that in real life someone is just going to get out of your way when you try and make a terrible pass, and crowd their line. 👎 You all fail.
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Do you want to say me that you would be acting the same like AI did in the situation caused by that player? Wouldn't you wait during his wild time maneuvers in the middle of the road and wouldn't you try to avoid him and go around him the other way? Or would you slam into him three times and thrash your own car if you were in the same situation? That would be good enough for psychiatric hospitalisation.
 
I said whining was a strong word, but I didn't say it wasn't suited. You saying I disregarded AI improvement is kind of weird considering I said I don't think it shoudn't be improved.
 
The one thing I really think should be out is that 🤬 piece of 🤬 "Next lap invalidated" thing when doing time trials. If I crashed this lap, fine, make me pay for it, but let me do another lap. The next lep is just a waste of time! And if you restart, most of the time you dont have a good launch speed so you must waste more time to get one...IT'S STUPID!!! "Next lap invalidated" My arse...:grumpy:.
 
AI will never be perfect and I don't care anymore now we are getting online modes. Can't beat player vs. player.
Prologue showed you can make an online racing game that allows close racing with minimal lag with the great graphics and physics of GT. AI cars have become effectively redundant to me.

I can understand not everyone can or wants to play online, and I agree that the AI is fairly poor overall. But honestly, I'm quite glad PD focused on other areas, because I gain more enjoyment out of pounding round empty tracks with such a great combo of physics and graphics than I do racing better AI in other games.

AI in games is incredibly frustrating and complicated, I'm not surprised that PD have really seemed to avoid really fixing it. Or maybe they have been trying to fix it for ages to a realistic level but never quite getting it to the quality they want? Whatever, I've yet to play a game with the "amazing" AI people seem to want, I have played games with better AI but it wasn't so brilliant I felt it was better than human opponents ever.
I remember people raving about Ferrari Challenge's AI :lol: the same AI that 100% of the time would cut to the inside and heavily braked when you approached, which meant you either unavoidably shunted them or easily overtook them on the outside. F1:CE also had AI that will regularly cut you up and spin you off in the wrong corners.

CarBastard
The one thing I really think should be out is that 🤬 piece of 🤬 "Next lap invalidated" thing when doing time trials. If I crashed this lap, fine, make me pay for it, but let me do another lap. The next lep is just a waste of time! And if you restart, most of the time you dont have a good launch speed so you must waste more time to get one...IT'S STUPID!!! "Next lap invalidated" My arse...:grumpy:.
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Its an extremely strong way of stopping people cheating by taking a shortcut or some other method and getting a bigger speed boost into the next lap despite a penalty on the previous one. I think its fair enough, its not difficult to run more than 1 clean lap in a row.
For GT Academy its necessary to ensure there is 0% cheating.
 
RedBaron
Do you want to say me that you would be acting the same like AI did in the situation caused by that player? Wouldn't you wait during his wild time maneuvers in the middle of the road and wouldn't you try to avoid him and go around him the other way? Or would you slam into him three times and thrash your own car if you were in the same situation? That would be good enough for psychiatric hospitalisation.
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I would do the same thing as the AI, I would HOLD MY LINE. The AI didn't crash into him, he crashed into the AI. So what, he drives like a maniac and I just GIVE him my position? In racing THAT would get you fired. Sorry.
 
RedSuinit
Wrong. The AI is holding it's line. The one sitting in front of the TV is the one ignoring the AI, he is STEERING INTO the AI, and pushing it of the track, the AI simply tried to hold on. That's not a problem with the AI, that's a problem with the one in front of the TV. The AI did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do. I ask again, do you really think that in real life you would be able to take that kind of line, attempt a terrible pass, attempt to SHOVE another driver off of their line, and then the other driver is just going to back off and GIVE you thier position?! That's ludicrous and CRAZY! Wake up and stop looking for things to complain about.
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Fine the A.I can hold its line, but in real life not all drivers take the same line. The A.I could at least brake, which is something simple that a real driver would do. The A.I also goes right back to the line despite you being there, basically colliding with the player. This is all evident in the game play video.

Again this type of driving is inexcusable, driving is just as much defensive as it is trying to get the best time.
 
It can't be denied that GT's A.I. is terrible. Yes, I agree that if you drive properly and overtake without bashing into other cars it makes the game more challenging. But, A.I. drivers will consistently draft into my rear bumper on tracks like Fuji or Test Course in GT4, when they could've easily overtaken me. Also, the A.I. is even worse in high-powered cars like GTPs or F1 cars, it isn't even challenging to beat them. Mind you, when I play the game I don't use any driving aids.

I know that PD has their hands full dealing with cutting-edge graphics, ultra-realistic car dynamics, and perfect track models; but they should not skimp on A.I.
 
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GMTN
Fine the A.I can hold its line, but in real life not all drivers take the same line. The A.I could at least brake, which is something simple that a real driver would do. The A.I also goes right back to the line despite you being there, basically colliding with the player. This is all evident in the game play video.

Again this type of driving is inexcusable, driving is just as much defensive as it is trying to get the best time.
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HE CAM INTO THE AI! Watch the video again. He is in a constant state of pushing against the AI and even drives him into the grass. THAT is what kind of driving is inexcusable. In a real life situation a penalty woud NOT have been called against that AI, but rather against the wreckless imbicile who is sitting in front of that television set making terrible overtaking and line decisions.
 
RedSuinit
Wrong. The AI is holding it's line. The one sitting in front of the TV is the one ignoring the AI, he is STEERING INTO the AI, and pushing it of the track, the AI simply tried to hold on. That's not a problem with the AI, that's a problem with the one in front of the TV. The AI did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do. I ask again, do you really think that in real life you would be able to take that kind of line, attempt a terrible pass, attempt to SHOVE another driver off of their line, and then the other driver is just going to back off and GIVE you thier position?! That's ludicrous and CRAZY! Wake up and stop looking for things to complain about.
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There is no difference in the performance of the vehicles in the last video, that separates the A.I from GT4. You're just saying i'm wrong. Compared to other car simulations, no GT5 demo/prologue has illustrated that the A.I is aware of the player vehicle. Which is a fact.

You can blame the player all you want to excuse the phenomenon behind the A.I's behavior, but Its the same old GT A.I problem, to where the vehicles don't know you're on a track with them, which is why they ram into you, or wont slow down if your ramming them off the track, they just simply aren't aware. You can try to personify the gallarado's driver all you want, but its no different than the way the A.I performed in GT4. GT's A.I doesn't react to you taking their position at all. They don't defend it. It would have to do that first before we could really compare it to real life.
 
blademask
There is no difference in the performance of the vehicles in the last video, that separates the A.I from GT4. You're just saying i'm wrong. Compared to other car simulations, no GT5 demo/prologue has illustrated that the A.I is aware of the player vehicle. Which is a fact.

You can blame the player all you want to excuse the phenomenon behind the A.I's behavior, but Its the same old GT A.I problem, to where the vehicles don't know you're on a track with them, which is why they ram into you, or wont slow down if your ramming them off the track, they just simply aren't aware. You can try to personify the gallarado's driver all you want, but its no different than the way the A.I performed in GT4. GT's A.I doesn't react to you taking their position at all. They don't defend it. It would have to do that first before we could really compare it to real life.
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Wrong again.



I can go find more if you so desire.
 
RedSuinit
I would do the same thing as the AI, I would HOLD MY LINE. The AI didn't crash into him, he crashed into the AI. So what, he drives like a maniac and I just GIVE him my position? In racing THAT would get you fired. Sorry.
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I can only hope then that damage in GT5 will stop racers like you and that player on the first try.
 
RedBaron
I can only hope then that damage in GT5 will stop racers like you and that player on the first try.
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Why, because I would do the right thing and hold my line, and not just give over my position because someon ELSE is being wreckless. Your logic is very flawed.

blademask
I already said GT5p slows in my first post. I own GT5p and know right now if your vehicle is stopped, they will ram you.
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Wouldn't slowing down be a recognition of the car on the track?

Your logic makes no sense.
 
The reason PD got away with bad AI before was the fact of no damage. Damage is now present so I think the full release of the game will have improved AI.
 
RedSuinit
Why, because I would do the right thing and hold my line, and not just give over my position because someon ELSE is being wreckless. Your logic is very flawed.
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Flawed seems to be correct name for logic of yours. Racing is not crashing and you should avoid it in every situation, no matter who caused it and how angry are you. To avoid crashes as possible is only one of many things you should have in your mind if you want to finish the race. Not talking about winning which is really only wishful thinking if the pole is full of those players ending with broken radiator and overheated engine because they think they don't give the position now.

AI had very simple task in that situation, just wait for the crazy to do the things, do some steering and disappear in the right moment, seeing that desperate guy rotating such a little in the mirror. But it failed again.

In fact, there are people in the industry which can do good AI, good car sounds and wonderful scenery. But GT is patching it with good ol' friends. And we will be darning it million times after the game will be released. There are guys that don't care. But I do.
 
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RedSuinit
Why, because I would do the right thing and hold my line, and not just give over my position because someon ELSE is being wreckless. Your logic is very flawed.



Wouldn't slowing down be a recognition of the car on the track?

Your logic makes no sense.
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I was wrong to say that its literally no different as a whole in responding to your comment, but the action of a vehicle holding its line is no different. GT's A.I has always had blinders on to the rest of the world. As I said in my first post. GT5p shows vehicles slowing. So its not a real revelation here. Slowing =/= A.I fighting for lines.

A.I vehicles don't fight for position, and they don't fight you as well. If you're in their way, it doesn't matter. If you're sneaking up behind them, it wont change their behavior at all. Which is different than other sims out. GT's A.I is the worst feature in the game, its not a bar for A.I in the simulation world, and hardly makes it close the the bar, by other simulation standards. This is has been the same for a decade.

You really should read the op.
 
The AI in Prologue is ok. As long as you stay on the racing line and try do drive clean they will avoid contact in most cases.

Even real life is not perfect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxrDaA0P_bI

So are DTM Drivers unaware of the other drivers in the race?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaIth1PJOPY

...probably...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMQsMs8s-D4

BTCC Drivers seem to be unable to brake when the **** hits the fan aswell.

People are complaining about GT5 all the time, although it is not even released! Its allways the same, AI, sound, Skylines and skidmarks. We have discussed this over and over again and still new threads are being started for no reason.
Just name a game with better AI and i will definately find videos that show how the AI is unable to avoid a crash.
I do care for AI, because Iam going to play Singleplayer most of the time and Iam fine with what I saw in the videos from GC to TGS to CES and what i experienced in Prologue.
 
RedBaron
I can only hope then that damage in GT5 will stop racers like you and that player on the first try.
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Hey, I'm with you, but what makes you confident about damage in online mode?
I mean there would be huge performance issues, surely?
GT5TT demo can't even hold it's framerate with one (!) car on track. :dunce:




Edit: They could make it mechanical damage only, that would save resources, like in GT2 maybe? :dopey:
 
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^^^Those examples are a little flawed - especially the BTCC one which is a wet track - if the driver slams the brakes on he is just going to be a passenger and anyone on the grass can do little too.

All 3 examples had people across the entire track when it is impossible for the cars behind to avoid them. Though the 2nd DTM one was a simple concertina effect. I think this really proves both points, they aren't really what people are referring to with the AI but it does show that not everything is avoidable contact. I think most people don't like the blind spots the AI appear to have and the lack of conciousness, but these are difficult things to model well.
 
Custer85
The AI in Prologue is ok. As long as you stay on the racing line and try do drive clean they will avoid contact in most cases.

Even real life is not perfect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxrDaA0P_bI

So are DTM Drivers unaware of the other drivers in the race?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaIth1PJOPY

...probably...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMQsMs8s-D4

BTCC Drivers seem to be unable to brake when the **** hits the fan aswell.

People are complaining about GT5 all the time, although it is not even released! Its allways the same, AI, sound, Skylines and skidmarks. We have discussed this over and over again and still new threads are being started for no reason.
Just name a game with better AI and i will definately find videos that show how the AI is unable to avoid a crash.
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Unable to avoid a crash is different than not responding to it at all. Again, there are GT apologists who will find every way to excuse it. Which is fine, But you know, and I know GT's A.I is poor by simulation standards. Name any real simulation, or the top ones Polled here on GTplanet for example. Theres your answer.

All A.I has glitches, but at the base, GT's A.I hasn't received undeniable night and day improvement that the rest of the series features have. More so the question was asked why do people think its this way, blame the apologists for jumping into defense mode. Theres been only 1 person that had a lucid response, and its valid. There is always the option to not respond. I feel that I went out of my way to explain the issue with the A.I in the op, and its relationship to the series. Not just "ITS A PS2 game HahahahH LOLWHUT".
 
Custer85
The AI in Prologue is ok. As long as you stay on the racing line and try do drive clean they will avoid contact in most cases.

Even real life is not perfect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxrDaA0P_bI

So are DTM Drivers unaware of the other drivers in the race?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaIth1PJOPY

...probably...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMQsMs8s-D4

BTCC Drivers seem to be unable to brake when the **** hits the fan aswell.

People are complaining about GT5 all the time, although it is not even released! Its allways the same, AI, sound, Skylines and skidmarks. We have discussed this over and over again and still new threads are being started for no reason.
Just name a game with better AI and i will definately find videos that show how the AI is unable to avoid a crash.
I do care for AI, because Iam going to play Singleplayer most of the time and Iam fine with what I saw in the videos from GC to TGS to CES and what i experienced in Prologue.
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Fixed.. fixed.. and fixed
 
Ardius
^^^Those examples are a little flawed - especially the BTCC one which is a wet track - if the driver slams the brakes on he is just going to be a passenger and anyone on the grass can do little too.

All 3 examples had people across the entire track when it is impossible for the cars behind to avoid them. Though the 2nd DTM one was a simple concertina effect.
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Its easy to find excuses for those crashes, but when the AI in GT5 Prologue misses its braking point its flawed, I see.
The AI is perfectly fine as long as you stay on the ideal line or at least somewhere on the track with a certain speed. As soon as the player behaves awkeward, or makes a mistake, the AI has to cope with the new situation and that will sometimes result in a crash.

Driving on the ideal line as long as possible is nothing I would complain about, as long as the AI is concerned. Driving through corners side by side with one AI car is possible aswell, but as soon as you add a 3rd car, the AI will most likely do something stupid. The AI is not perfect, but its good enough in my book.

@magicalgin:
Thanks! I don't know how to use the youtubefunction properly, just clicking "youtube" and inserting the URL doesn't seem to work for me.
 
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Custer85
Its easy to find excuses for those crashes, but when the AI in GT5 Prologue misses its braking point its flawed, I see.
The AI is perfectly fine as long as you stay on the ideal line or at least somewhere on the track with a certain speed. As soon as the player behaves awkeward, or makes a mistake, the AI has to cope with the new situation and that will sometimes result in a crash.
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I am not one of those who is arguing the point against AI, but I do think you have missed the point other people are making.
 
but c'mon when I stop on daytona on the straight the AI crashes without any try to break in you. Is that smart? well no...
 
DonZonda
but c'mon when I stop on daytona on the straight the AI crashes without any try to break in you. Is that smart? well no...
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Is what smart? You stopping or them hitting you.
 

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