Welp. Someone has to say it.... (AI thread)

  • Thread starter Thread starter blademask
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If you look at how GT4's B Spec driver is done, I think the AI back then was created like that. It does allowed for varying skills in Battle, Course and Machine knowledge

All PD need to do is expand this with a few more parameters and there you have it, AI drivers with varying skills, styles and ability
 
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+1 to post #91
 
See this is what I've been saying.. No matter how good GT5 will be there will ALWAYS be that group of people that will find something to complain about, something to pick at to think to themselves "yes, I'm happy because I've found something to complain about!". Over the years I think the AI has improved a decent bit. If you just think back to how horrible it was in GT1 and 2, when the AI cars all sounded the same and drove on rails I think GT5 Prologue is a huge improvement and as others have said if you want it to be real, then go out to a race track.

All of that said, the AI hasn't bothered me at all because if all the cars are behind you.. and you're out in front then what's the problem? ;) after all that's the idea, to be in front of them.
 
I can't believe people are complaining because the AI is following the racing line.... Do you not watch any racing?!... The racing line is the most important part of consistant fast laps and overtaking only occurs after the certain driver does about 20 laps of consistant fast times to catch up to the guy in front... And ofcorse if you're driving like the guy in the video was the AI is going to crash in you.. He's braking late and not enough and making all sorts of mistakes, If he was in a real race he'd either cause a major accident or hold up all the drivers behind him because they're too scared to go past such bad drivers for the risk of their cars..
And I can't believe you can make such a judgements from a 3 minute video.. "Oh what the hell... The AI couldn't move out of the way of the car spinning in the middle of road while the AI car is travelling at 200+ kph in a narrow road with big barriers on either side?! WHY?! ANY REAL RACING DRIVER WOULD FLY OVER THAT SH**!"
 
This is why all racing games should include 2 player split screen.All my best GT races have been against friends sitting next to me on the couch.Real poeple is the only way to get real races.
 
GT's AI was never good or decent. The AI up to GT4 are just cars driving around so you're not alone on the grid and have someone to chase around.

However, I'm happy to say that this changed with GT5P. The AI is far from great but surely is decent for a change. As far as I can tell, the AI is made with proper racing in mind. It works pretty well but only if you drive properly. If you don't, you'll be crashing into it and it will be crashing into you a lot. Much like real life, mind you. If you drive around properly but slower than the AI, it will wait like a gentleman and overtake you only in safe spots. If you stop in the middle of the road, it will crash into you as if you weren't there. I can't say I completely agree but I think I understand where PD is coming from. If you're not supposed to do something, the AI won't bother checking if you did it or not, it will just assume you didn't because you shouldn't be doing it. It works when I'm driving around seriously so I don't think there's a need to complain that the AI T-boned me when I was standing flat in the middle of the track or anything of that sort.

My only complaint about it is that it doesn't allow for some intense racing causing races to be boring most of the time. However, It's hard to tell if there's anything that can be done about it. Take shift's AI for example. It's nice for a race or two but after that it just drives you crazy with all that reckless driving and crashing. If you try to race seriously the AI will take you out, one way or another, it's just impossible to race seriously with it. I've been told about the same thing happens in Forza. It's far more dynamic but it's actually so aggressive that it will brake check, spin you around, crash, make a lot of mistakes and you'll be praying for a well behaved, GT style AI in no time.

Still, I really hope for more improvements. It certainly can be made better. I think it will because of nascar mostly, but well, it's certainly decent already so I don't feel the need to complain about it.
 
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The GT AI has been so boring to me that I only race to raise money to buy cars. If I want to have fun I stick with time trial
 
I'm with you blademask! đź‘Ť

FrancisBenjamin
you want "The REAL Thing" go race IN REAL LIFE.
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Heath_1
as others have said if you want it to be real, then go out to a race track.
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Sorry, but that's the most ridiculous retort I have heard! :boggled: The very reason we are playing this game is so that we won't have to spend copious amounts of money racing real cars. đź’ˇ

Of course no driving game has perfect AI. But then again, there are many driving games where the AI is better than in Gran Turismo. IMO, Prologue is the first game in the series where PD has, at last, tried to improve the AI. I don't think it's too much to ask for a good AI, especially considering how much effort PD are putting into this game otherwise.

Meh, this discussion reminds me of why I don't visit this place so often anymore...:indiff:
 
The AI of Gran Turismo is missing emotions.

Driving online with GT5P has given me a new view on the game. The handling of the cars is great, the AI very poor. When racing other people you experience emotions (getting frustrated when some one blocks you) and a interaction between you and other drivers (getting nervous if some one closing the gap on you). The AI is missing al of that.

My hope is that the GT mode will be using online gameplay, competing in the sunday cup with real people not the useless AI.
 
To all who are busy making excuses for the poor AI, please go back to the TOCA series, 2 and 3 had very decent AI where it counted and they felt like they were racing. The breaking into packs was good and the feeling of being around other drivers was good. Not perfect by any means, but considering how long ago it was and how good it was, there is really no excuse for the poor AI we have seen.

I got railed plenty of times for bringing up poor AI, but honestly, all I can say is if you are still making excuses for it (yes saying the game is not out yet like it's some magical fix all - remember Forza fans defending the Forza demo and how it wasn't the final game yet? Yeah it sounds that bad) you are just in denial.
 
R1600Turbo
Here is an answer to the complainers:

If you REALLY want to race against better AI, stop playing video games and join your local track day club and do it for real. Then you won't have to worry about it any more. đź‘Ť
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We are talking about GT here, not about real racing, sweeping a rubbish or fleecing the sheeps. So let your advices for anyone who can appreciate it and let the adults talk. Thank you.

R1600Turbo
No, we just enjoy the game for what it is and don't nit-pick at every little freakin' detail.
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This is little detail? This is the core of the game and main concern of gt mode created by such incompetitive races. There could be train instead of cars, because they act like it in fact.

happycorey
No you don't need to be a music composer, but if you were a music composer you might know how to make the music still sound good regardless of the note.
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But if you hear that false note every time they play the music, you'll start to complain and expect any improvement to call the band the good one. And that's what we do.

CoolColJ
If you look at how GT4's B Spec driver is done, I think the AI back then was created like that. It does allowed for varying skills in Battle, Course and Machine knowledge

All PD need to do is expand this with a few more parameters and there you have it, AI drivers with varying skills, styles and ability
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They can't do styles into present engine, because it is based only on driving in the rails of ideal racing line, some boosting and some prescripted sand visiting repeated in the same place. This is AI which could even ZX Spectrum calculate.

Earth
Sorry, but no matter how good the programmer is the AI will still have problems. It's just impossible.
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No, it's not. It's about setting the same physics for AI players and learn them to orientate in that world. But we are perhaps wanting too much after 10 years of same PS1 stupid AI system while our console is many hundred times faster now. :sick:

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Actually, I can't believe how many people are defending that ten years old boned and obviously wrong AI or pretending that crashing into others is the one and only right thing while racing. It's like saying something is green when you can clearly see it's red. Shame to you.
 
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I'm sorry, but every conceivable defence for the A.I is completely blown out of the water when they unfailingly ram into you whilst remaining in plain sight with plenty of time for them to react. Claiming that the A.I is actually half decent if you drive like a real racer instead of a bumper smasher is odd, considering that real drivers will have some kind of threat awareness and sense of self preservation, unlike the Kamikaze GT drones. There's much more, but I'm sure it's already been mentioned throughout these pages.

If a serious improvement is on the way, the career mode should be faultless, especially considering the scope and the scale of it's features that has been promised.
 
I find myself in the middle on this as I do agree that when racing against real people at a race meet, they will expect you to have similar breaking points and speed to them and if you weave and make mistakes there is a chance you're gonna get rammed of the circuit. (will mention here that I have never raced but just using my common sense).

On the other hand I have seen footage of track days and people are all over the place sometimes do to their lack of experience or too much enthusiasm. People have to be flexible then.

I think the issue I have is that we do still seem to have and evolved version of the AI from previous versions rather than a revolved one...hold on..revolution not evolution is what I mean! Sorry got a headache so my brain is in an odd gear! :ouch:

For me, too many games stretching right back to Geoff Crammond's GP series had very effective AI so I see no reason to have to defend something that has already been achieved to a certain degree in other games years ago.

I sold my Xbox 360 after being disappointed with aspects of Forza 3 and got a PS3 again in anticipation of GT5 so I'm as eager to get on playing it as most are on here, but yes the AI for me is probably something that should have been sorted by now. Including the especially annoying super quick car that seems to be on rails with Nitrous that always seems to hunt me down eventually. But then again maybe I should just be quicker :nervous:

Daz
 
NoxNoctis Umbra
Besides , sure its not PERFECT, but its really decent.. besides if AI was perfect, I would never win a race. Because on average I am always 3 seconds slower then top drivers.
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I guess that "perfection" in the context would mean an AI that would behave like rela-life drivers and that could actually "see" your car on track and avoid it if, for example, you spin out of a corner.

I completely agree with the opening post. AI it has been an issue and we could only hope that it'll get worked out on GT5, once it comes out. However, based on the videos seen on the last months we have no reasons to be too optimistic about it.

And this is not bashing GT...
 
This thread is full of people complaining about the AI in a game which isn't released. Claiming to prove their problems from videos, which are not the final build.

The AI in GT has always had it's problems, for the most part it works. In prologue I specificly remeber things like; cars following behind mine to get slipstream, cars moving around me to overtake, cars stopping after spinning out to let others by. If those things have been implemented don't you think the final build will hold more?

Even if it doesn't improve, do you really need to debate it. It's FACT the AI isn't perfect. Let's move on. Maybe we could talk about trees, reverse lights or skidmarks? :dopey:
 
As has already been mentioned - As long as you stay on the racing line and try do drive clean they will avoid contact in most cases.
However there are instances where it is still far from perfect - In GT5P I can be driving perfectly coming into and around 100R @ Fuji and one of the AI always seems to run wide @ turn 5, it then attempts to join the track without thought and crash into me every time :dopey:
 
I think debating everything to do with the GT series is the point of forums like this. I do agree that some threads can get convoluted with repetition and nonsensical posts, but ultimately that's why I come here, to debate and discuss.

In the end if I think a thread is of no interest to me I don't read it or contribute to it.

Anyway about those skidmarks...:sly:

Daz
 
There a lot of these threads at the moment - speculation on content and quality, interpretation of what's been seen and not seen, commentary on whether elements could, should or need to be improved, and of course, inevitable arguments over the validity of opposing views, whining and bickering. All perfectly natural given the level of expectation and length of wait.

For many of my comments - be it simulation level, physics, graphics, and now AI, I have made reference to my gaming origins - PC combat sims. Mainly, but not exclusively flight sims. I see this as a valid comparison, because all of these functions rely on mathematic algorithms and processing power, and for the PC sim world, the mathematics of physics models have been of a very good standard for 15 or 20 years.

AI has been more patchy - after all it is behaviour modelling, and can't easily fall back on hard and fast physical laws. However, there is no reason why AI cannot be very well modelled to provide convincing adversaries, whether that be for racing or combat. IF the will is there the AI can be coded and modelled.

In combat sims the AI will decide whether to be offensive or defensive, depending on their mission objectives and in some cases, how favourable the outcomes look. In unfavourable circumstances, some will choose not to engage, bug-out and choose to fight another day. Others will use complex evasive manouvres. Some will use teamwork, with pairs or fours splitting up so one element will decoy you, whilst the second element engages.... We are talking about AI that WILL outsmart you, with a whole repertoire of actions and the decision making that goes with them. (and we are going back to Falcon 3 [1991] and EF2000 [1995], ms-dos and 66 megHz 486 series PCs)

Am I off topic - NO, I don't think so. I am merely trying to point out that AI can be done very well if it is regarded as a priority. Despite the "Real Driving Simulator" marketing talk, simulation does not appear to be a priority for PD.

They do however, make a very good driving racing game with an encyclopaedic car collection to make car lovers drool - and that is where I think their priorities are. It is also the reason why I am a fan of GT, and the only reason I bought a PS2 and PS3.

I see every reason to praise them for what they are very, very, good at, but no reason not to highlight those areas that could, and in many cases, should, be improved - especially seeing as they choose to market the brand under that Real Driving Simulator tag.
 
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Anyway about those skidmarks...:sly:
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I was thinking the same thing, what if an AI player reversed made skid marks in reverse - On the GT4 ring into a 2D tree...and didn't receive damage?

Oh snap. :ouch:
 
I wonder if the career mode will be totally online. Offline will be arcade but all those Sunday Cups, Manufacturer Championships, FF, FR etc etc will all be done online against real players. That, for me, would be epic.
 
ADEuk
I wonder if the career mode will be totally online. Offline will be arcade but all those Sunday Cups, Manufacturer Championships, FF, FR etc etc will all be done online against real players. That, for me, would be epic.
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đź‘Ť I would enjoy that much better than racing AI, no matter how good it is.

"I think the background behind it is the advancements in technology. But the driving force and necessity for that change is really the times we live in and that the lifestyles of the people playing games have changed over the years." Kaz said to USA Today.

I don't know about you guys, but this statement seems to point toward online racing as being PD's biggest priority right now. Technology advancements are to do with broadband internet, and how it is getting more and more accessible. And the change in lifesytle seems to indicate a less demanding GT mode. If this postulate proves to be correct, I would say PD has gone the exact way with GT5 that I would have wanted, and expected them to.
 
I read the whole thread since it is pretty long and repeating itself any time.

Anyhow, I also agree that AI in GT series is very poor, although GT5P is improved a bit since previous GT's it still way back from other games (mostly PC sims).

If you want to understand what is a poor AI - go into one of the events under GT5P, let all the cars start the race. Now drive slowly into some turn and break at the "line" in that turn (you can also do it in straight line, but in turns it's easier). Now just wait for the AI to go for a full lap until they will get to this point - and just start count the number of cars that hitting & smashing your car....
This is POOR AI.

Now, if you have kind of a modern PC - download the GTR Evolution Demo (free) and do a similar thing (just pick up car+track) - just watch how all the cars breaks differently and go around your car.
This is GOOD AI.

In general - A good AI for me is when I'm watching a reply it is hard to define what is human driver and what is AI driver - the AI should DO mistakes like human (of course it depends on the difficulty level), and shall NOT go to the sand on each race at the same spot. All those who say that AI in GT can also try this in GT5P:
Pick up some event (Sx are good choice for this). Start the event but don't drive your car, just let it move by itself (or drive quickly to the side), let the game do 1-2 laps, then quit and watch the replay - watch the other cars on the replay and look for some place where you see a car sliding on the sand (your car shall NOT be even near...). After you found 1-2 places like this restart the same race again and do the same thing - watch the replay and trail the same car as in the previous replay - now see how it drives the same and slide the same on the sand - a GOOD AI won't drive like this since every lap will be different !!!

P.S. I'm a big fan of GT series and bought PS3 just recently - mostly for GT5.
 
R1600Turbo
No, we just enjoy the game for what it is and don't nit-pick at every little freakin' detail.
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AI is not a detail. Some of the things I complain about, like reverse lights, are not a detail. It's something that should have been there since day one. And I'm amazed that we didn't got those in GT4. I guess the problem is that some details are just plain obvious, and that's where PD should focus.

To me, AI isn't that much of a concern, because if I get GT5, I will be damn sure to do whatever I can to play it online, and problem solved. Sure, I have to race through the game to complete it, but I have been doing that in GT2 and GT4, so it's not a big problem.
 
yossigab
If you want to understand what is a poor AI - go into one of the events under GT5P, let all the cars start the race. Now drive slowly into some turn and break at the "line" in that turn (you can also do it in straight line, but in turns it's easier). Now just wait for the AI to go for a full lap until they will get to this point - and just start count the number of cars that hitting & smashing your car....
This is POOR AI.
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Did you ever think that the AI only recognizes cars on the same lap?
And why would I race a computer and just sit for an entire lap? :confused:
 

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