Welp. Someone has to say it.... (AI thread)

[killanite]

Did you ever think that the AI only recognizes cars on the same lap?
And why would I race a computer and just sit for an entire lap?

Exactly... The AI wasn't programmed to deal with the strange experiments people pull on them... "Oh if i drive the wrong way and intercept the AI when they're coming around means it's the AI's fault not mine for trying such things"

 

[craste]

And why would I race a computer and just sit for an entire lap?

To test and confirm that the AI is poo?

 

[rkk01]

I wonder if the career mode will be totally online. Offline will be arcade but all those Sunday Cups, Manufacturer Championships, FF, FR etc etc will all be done online against real players. That, for me, would be epic.

Whatever, eff the AI. This game will be played online.

I sincerely hope NOT. That's about the only thing that would persuade me not to buy GT5.

By all means, online play HAS to be a major element of GT5, but the core GT mode should be available to all, offline. And that, of course, requires AI drivers.

How would you gain credits to unlock cars from an online only gameplay?? The standard required to, say, win Sunday Cup online would surely be expected to vary according to who was in the race. With GT mode locked to an offline competition, PD can set the appropriate benchmarks for completion of each race.

 

[GT4Ever]

Funny to see a lot of people commenting with :
"The game is still under development" or "the game aint finished yet".

While deep inside we all know the AI wont be any better in the final game. PD just doenst care about AI, they only care about graphics and driving physics.

 

[yossigab]

Did you ever think that the AI only recognizes cars on the same lap?
And why would I race a computer and just sit for an entire lap?

First - No, the AI shall recognize all the cars, always - just like a human driver will not hit a car which is bypassed by one lap. Sounds like you are saying that in long long races (where passing by one lap is common), all the "behind" cars are doomed to be hit by the faster AI cars !!! Well, if that so then this is not a "Real Driving Simulator"

Second, the example was to show how the AI handles, and thus was explained how to do it simple. If you want you can choose a 5 laps event, pass all the cars and wait on the next turn - now you are on the same lap with them and still they will bang you.

Third - again, this is just a AI test, of course you shall not do it during the race. If you want - pass all the cars with big distance (few seconds), then take a "very defensive driving" - drive 150 on a straight instead of 250 - now see how they hit you even though they have enough time to "see" you, break and go around.

 

[craste]

Fan boys stop this, stop this right now - why do you keep defending the game - we are only trying to point out things which can be improved - stop acting like your life depends on everybody thinking GT5 is the best thing since sliced bread cos it isn't.

Get over it.

I would not be surprised if the main conclusion of the reviewers to GT5 when it comes out is this:

"Too little, Too late"

Hope I'm wrong but seeing as they had to delay upon release of forza 3 it would appear PD are still reeling and have not yet caught up.

Just my two cents worth - I am entitled to an opinion so go away anybody who feels its their duty as a fanboy to have a go.

 

[IsmokeGT]

To test and confirm that the AI is poo?

Here is a huge for you too!
Now explain why waiting an entire lap is necessary to test AI when they start in front, and behind you.

I said several pages ago, AI should be improved, or at least I don't think it shouldn't be improved. You guys act like this is 1990! I have not done anything offline since I got high-speed, yet I have played GT since I was 17 and loved it until I got high-speed internet.

 

[rkk01]

:Now explain why waiting an entire lap is necessary to test AI when they start in front, and behind you.

yossigab is merely explaining that you can take your car to a point where it does not influence the race. Then let the race play out - without your influence, and watch the replays to see how the AI performs.

Pretty simple concept to get.

 

[craste]

Here is a huge for you too!
Now explain why waiting an entire lap is necessary to test AI when they start in front, and behind you.

I said several pages ago, AI should be improved, or at least I don't think it shouldn't be improved. You guys act like this is 1990! I have not done anything offline since I got high-speed, yet I have played GT since I was 17 and loved it until I got high-speed internet.

Bo hoo.

er perhaps if you brake on the starting grid then in real life you'd probably get slammed up the arse.

whereas if you drove from the start and let all the cars overtake you and then sit on the entrance to the bend so that the Ai coming around would have a massive huge amount of time to see you sitting in the distance and then think "Oh look there's a car just sitting on the track, methinks i'll drive round it instead of slamming into the back of it like a right twart"

See.

Here have YOUR hat back

The AI in GT is crap - get used to it.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Problem in that, in real terms, AI is not possible or, at least not 16 simultaneous AI's driving convincingly at 60fps. Your console lacks the processing power. So you have cars on rubber bands, capable of outperforming the actual model, with maybe a slight touch of evasive manouvering/braking possible. Expecting anything more is dreaming. Personally I'd be happier if they dumbed the AI down a bit. Means more clock cycles available for the physics on my car.

 

[IsmokeGT]

The AI in GT is crap - get used to it.

You are missing a major link from seeing your point of view to seeing my point of view.

I dont need to get use to GT's garbage AI, I don't play offline! Get that yet?
However, you on the other hand, must get use to the garbge AI, for you need lifelike AI, for some reason. Why you can't just accept the fact that computers don't have brains, and no matter how good it is, it isn't live.

AI should be improved, after everything else is perfect.

 

[yossigab]

Problem in that, in real terms, AI is not possible or, at least not 16 simultaneous AI's driving convincingly at 60fps. Your console lacks the processing power. So you have cars on rubber bands, capable of outperforming the actual model, with maybe a slight touch of evasive manouvering/braking possible. Expecting anything more is dreaming. Personally I'd be happier if they dumbed the AI down a bit. Means more clock cycles available for the physics on my car.

I disagree that the reason is lack of memory/CPU. Because the AI in GT series is basically the same since GT2 (I never played GT1 so I can't tell).
It always looks like that each car has a "hidden" line where it's driving on, no matter what's going on the track - it will always break/accel/turn at the same spot (again for the same count lap, since it might have multiple lines to make it "interesting" between laps). And if the human is "disturbing" the AI then it will try to get back to the hidden line ASAP, rather than first challenging the driver and fight for a place - of course without hitting !!!

I'm a programmer myself (my job) and to keep the hidden line for each is also memory consuming so I don't think it's lack of memory.

For me it looks more like like lack of innovation - Good AI need some good algorithms and in-game environment awareness. Each AI car should be given with some "human" abilities (skill level, fast/slow, safe/hard) and mistakes also need to be random depends on the difficulty level.
It could be that PD are concentrating more on the game presentation and less on those kind of issues. It's easier to "draw" a line in PD labs for each event+car combination, and just load it for each event...

Although NFSS is bad game (IMO), take the demo and watch the AI, they have a "minimal" brain, obviously more than GT AI's.

 

[daan]

Here's a shameful fact:
I was playing Grand Prix Legends (PC-1998) the other day and I crash. But, the cars swereve around me and AVOID ACCIDENTS!

GT on the other hand being 10+ years older still has bad AI that do not swerve and avoid accidents.

This is shameful. PD has not bothered to put a 10+ year old technology yet crucial thing in their game.

Now, go and try that again and watch the way the AI move sideways to avoid you! Yes, they avoid you, but they do it so unrealistically and in a manner that a human driver would find impossible to do.

At least the AI in GT don't do things that you couldn't.

 

[daz1976]

Problem in that, in real terms, AI is not possible or, at least not 16 simultaneous AI's driving convincingly at 60fps. Your console lacks the processing power. So you have cars on rubber bands, capable of outperforming the actual model, with maybe a slight touch of evasive manouvering/braking possible. Expecting anything more is dreaming. Personally I'd be happier if they dumbed the AI down a bit. Means more clock cycles available for the physics on my car.

P3nT4gR4m makes a very valid point. I think we overestimate what a 60fps game can achieve, although all the GT series have suffered from having not great AI so how valid this is with GT5P and GT5 is debatable.

I don't get why people seem so sensitive to what can be described as negative opinions on certain aspects of GT. I think most of us here would be the first to say what a great series of games they have been. Isn't that why we're all here anyway?

As I mentioned earlier, I think the AI issue on GT stems from the fact that they have evolved their way through the series rather than wiping the slate clean and starting fresh at some point. Most programmers know that any weak points in a programs initial structure can only ever be tidied up at best, not made different. Maybe this is one reason for the delay...err I mean later than expected arrival of GT5 by it's fanbase. Polishing something often reveals imperfections that have been there from the start.

Daz

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

AI is always a lot harder than following a line. That's why game programmers almost always substitute a "line" for complex decision making algorithms. The amount of variables that need to be crunched to provide genuine AI prohibit it.

 

[greenlightning]

How about "B"-spec Bob?

I believe that "B"-spec driver is generally better than the "A.I." and does not appear to run exact same line every time / lap ( however fairly consitant ). Meaning perhaps if A.I. had some of the "B" - spec programing that they might appear better.

Do agree that main thing with the A.I. is that needs to have groups of A.I. will different skill levels. Meaning that in a race the A.I. do not drive all at the same pace or on the exact same racing line. Some may be agressive and brake to late or take turns to fast and occasionally wipe out. Others may be cautiuos but consistent. Basically if you have a group of A.I. will programming code that varries from one A.I. driver to the next it would be more interesting.

 

[Mad Matt]

At least the AI in GT don't do things that you couldn't.

Well, I see you're point but they do. The AI cars seem to have an inertia that my car doesn't (when pushing and shoving) and they seem to be able to generate traction on the grass that I can't.

I appreciate that some people will play more on-line, but there will be lots who play a lot off-line and I suspect on-line play will decrease after a few months as people struggle to find "decent/fair" competition.

I hope they've made improvements to the AI as I prefer off-line play but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[CodeRedR51]

This is little detail? This is the core of the game and main concern of gt mode created by such incompetitive races. There could be train instead of cars, because they act like it in fact.

For you. Obviously you don't know how to drive around them so it's a big problem in your eyes. I've had many great races with the AI and think they happen to be just fine the way they are.

Fan boys stop this, stop this right now - why do you keep defending the game - we are only trying to point out things which can be improved - stop acting like your life depends on everybody thinking GT5 is the best thing since sliced bread cos it isn't.

No, we're just happy with the game the way it is. You complainers have nothing better to do than point out every little problem. (No reverse lights - OMG!)

 

[paulpg87]

Funny to see a lot of people commenting with :
"The game is still under development" or "the game aint finished yet".

While deep inside we all know the AI wont be any better in the final game. PD just doenst care about AI, they only care about graphics and driving physics.

👍

 

[Dravonic]

I read the whole thread since it is pretty long and repeating itself any time.

Anyhow, I also agree that AI in GT series is very poor, although GT5P is improved a bit since previous GT's it still way back from other games (mostly PC sims).

If you want to understand what is a poor AI - go into one of the events under GT5P, let all the cars start the race. Now drive slowly into some turn and break at the "line" in that turn (you can also do it in straight line, but in turns it's easier). Now just wait for the AI to go for a full lap until they will get to this point - and just start count the number of cars that hitting & smashing your car....
This is POOR AI.

Now, if you have kind of a modern PC - download the GTR Evolution Demo (free) and do a similar thing (just pick up car+track) - just watch how all the cars breaks differently and go around your car.
This is GOOD AI.

In general - A good AI for me is when I'm watching a reply it is hard to define what is human driver and what is AI driver - the AI should DO mistakes like human (of course it depends on the difficulty level), and shall NOT go to the sand on each race at the same spot. All those who say that AI in GT can also try this in GT5P:
Pick up some event (Sx are good choice for this). Start the event but don't drive your car, just let it move by itself (or drive quickly to the side), let the game do 1-2 laps, then quit and watch the replay - watch the other cars on the replay and look for some place where you see a car sliding on the sand (your car shall NOT be even near...). After you found 1-2 places like this restart the same race again and do the same thing - watch the replay and trail the same car as in the previous replay - now see how it drives the same and slide the same on the sand - a GOOD AI won't drive like this since every lap will be different !!!

P.S. I'm a big fan of GT series and bought PS3 just recently - mostly for GT5.

I understand what you mean, and I agree that it's really bad. But ruling if the AI is good or not on that alone? You're going too far. The AI works decently if you drive like you're supposed to. Since you're driving the right way nearly all the time what would you prefer? Shift AI that ram you off the track all the freaking time but dodge you if you stop in the middle of the track? Or GT AI that behaves nicely (perhaps too nicely) but T-bone you if you stop in the middle of the road?

The AI obviously doesn't check for extreme cases, like you trying to block it without enough room or stopping in the middle of the track, but that doesn't matter if you drive properly.

I'm not saying I don't want it to be improved, I really do. It surely can be made better and for GT if it's not epic, it's not good enough but I think most people here are downplaying GT's AI more than they should.

 

[C.D]

Besides , sure its not PERFECT, but its really decent..

Scripted AI that hardly ever changes between races is decent? Really?

n cars following each other in line is "decent AI"? Oh yeah?

Did they brainwash you or what?

I don't friggin care either way as long as they get the online right (GT has always been about Time Trial'ing for me anyway), however saying that the GT series has had at any point in its history "decent AI" is such an asinine statement.

They just don't care about AI, let's leave it at that.

 

[kingcars]

For those who want to see what AI really needs to be like, look no further:

I've had many intense side by side battles with the AI in this game and it's really enjoyable to play. It's far from perfect, but it's worlds better than any other racing game I've played.

 

[IsmokeGT]

They just don't care about AI, let's leave it at that.

I think it is fair to say that, as long as you also say they put the care they don't have for AI into other areas. I think for the general public that wants to race real people (because that is a ton more fun than racing computers), the amount of care being put into those other areas is better spent there, than on a feature that is doing nothing but getting more useless.

I draw this conclusion from my experience, and friends experience with online racing, as well as Kaz's comments on technology changing the game's feel.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think it is fair to say that, as long as you also say they put the care they don't have for AI into other areas. I think for the general public that wants to race real people (because that is a ton more fun than racing computers), the amount of care being put into those other areas is better spent there, than on a feature that is doing nothing but getting more useless.

I draw this conclusion from my experience, and friends experience with online racing, as well as Kaz's comments on technology changing the game's feel.

+1

In previous versions of the game I'd always complete it, get some cash together for cars and then spend the rest of the time either hotlapping or playing split screen 1v1 with a mate. At no point was the AI anything other than moving scenery for me and the majority of the time was spent without it even there.

With Prologue everything changed. Racing against real people is where it's at. If the AI in the full-game is even one-tenth as smart as any AI that has come before it, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I'll only be winning each AI race the once anyway.

 

[Kryz11]

Scripted AI that hardly ever changes between races is decent? Really?

n cars following each other in line is "decent AI"? Oh yeah?

Did they brainwash you or what?

I don't friggin care either way as long as they get the online right (GT has always been about Time Trial'ing for me anyway), however saying that the GT series has had at any point in its history "decent AI" is such an asinine statement.

They just don't care about AI, let's leave it at that.

In my book its decent AI, in your book is not.. So why am I brain Washed? It's my damn opinion. In real life race, everyone fallows the race line, if you dont, you loose time.

 

[ForzaGT]

How come near the end that AI car hit him and just kept going? After the driver recovered I see on the map the AI car which hit him was like miles away??

 

[Sureboss]

Scripted AI that hardly ever changes between races is decent? Really?

n cars following each other in line is "decent AI"? Oh yeah?

Did they brainwash you or what?

I don't friggin care either way as long as they get the online right (GT has always been about Time Trial'ing for me anyway), however saying that the GT series has had at any point in its history "decent AI" is such an asinine statement.

They just don't care about AI, let's leave it at that.

AI in most computer games is "scripted".

AI is the most difficult thing in this industry to get right, you can spend for ever tweaking it to find the right settings. To get AI "right" (well, it'll never be human) in a racing game is the biggest challenge any racing dev faces.

 

[Spagetti69]

I don't own prologue but could someone confirm if the AI overtake each other or do the order they finish in base on the order they start. The reason I mention this is because in a series of races you would know before the race is over what order they will be in. Kinda unrealistic IMHO.

 

[Dravonic]

I don't own prologue but could someone confirm if the AI overtake each other or do the order they finish in base on the order they start. The reason I mention this is because in a series of races you would know before the race is over what order they will be in. Kinda unrealistic IMHO.

They do overtake each other. Not regularly but it happens.

 

[Ardius]

AI in most computer games is "scripted".

AI is the most difficult thing in this industry to get right, you can spend for ever tweaking it to find the right settings. To get AI "right" (well, it'll never be human) in a racing game is the biggest challenge any racing dev faces.

Being pedantic, technically video game "AI" is not true AI. Its just programming objects to react a certain way in certain situations in order to give the illusion of intelligence. Of course, we could argue how we define intelligence but its certainly not the most complicated form of AI.

But I agree, even "simple" AI is extremely complex and very difficult to get right, no surprises that PD cop out in this area especially if they are intending to push the online side more (which appears to be the case).