Welp. Someone has to say it.... (AI thread)

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Sureboss
Thus the "scripted" ;) Luckily I don't encounter too many customers regarding this, I think we'd lose quite a lot if they realised how it actually worked. But then again, a video game is all about imagination, isn't it?

When you get good "AI", particularly in the more complex games, appreciate it for what it is!
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Heh, I was warned before starting my games programming course that when you start making games, you begin seeing flaws in others and picking them apart, and thus not enjoying them anymore.
I haven't found this completely the case, you just notice things and can appreciate quality better. I'm still able to disengage my analytical mind and just enjoy the game for what it is though.

/offtopic :lol:
 
Dravonic
I believe the only reason you got offended is because you think it was directed at you.
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I got offended because I know it is directed at people who are not trolls, regardless if it's me or not.

Dravonic
Saying that Kazunori pays little attention to the GT series appears to be the work of a troll when it's arguable that no other game is as detailed and ambitious as GT is.
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Enlighten me in how GT is detailed, given the fact it is missing something obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I love GT. The only game I play is GT4, moreover, it's the sole reason I bought a PS2 for.
 
Interesting thread.. I see good points in both sides. One element is that I indeed am a fanboy, so I just don't want to admit that this perfect game has faults. Then I thought to myself that I have to try and see this from an objective standpoint in order to figure out which side is right. While doing that, I came to the conclusion that the truth is somewhere in the middle, as it usually is.

The AI is far from perfect, but from my point of view it's good enough I think. Gran Turismo is so perfect in many ways that even the smallest fault feels very wrong. I agree that in many cases it feels like I'm not racing real intelligent beings, but then again I'm not. In GT5P the AI was improved, and I think that in GT5 it will be even better, but still not perfect. Other SIMS may have more dynamic AI, but then surely they will have other faults that GT does better. It's a matter of priorities.

With the level that we're in now with GT5, I guess the only things left for GT6 is AI, reverse lights and skidmarks.
 
Lucas
I got offended because I know it is directed at people who are not trolls, regardless if it's me or not.



Enlighten me in how GT is detailed, given the fact it is missing something obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I love GT. The only game I play is GT4, moreover, it's the sole reason I bought a PS2 for.
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It's missing two obvious things as far as I'm concerned. Though the reverse light's are not that obvious.

However, just because it lacks two details it's suddenly not detailed? What about all the other details? Driver animations, not only shifting but fully animated, pressing the pedals, moving the head and all done so naturally. The fully detailed dashboards and meticulously detailed cars modeled by true 3D artists. The tracks, with buildings actually measured by the field crew, not just modeled by eye by a modeler looking at a photo. Not to mention all the little details that are reproduced since real drivers might use them as braking points and thus players can also use them in GT5. There's a mark in the tarmac at Fuji that I use as a braking point. There's a camera stand at Indianapolis that I use as a brake point thanks to their attention to detail. Photo mode, menus... The game has little details everywhere that put together form an amazing game. With flaws, missing features and details, sure. Amazing not perfect.

Because it's missing an obvious and a not very obvious detail in no way makes it bland and minimalistic.
 
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Dravonic
It's missing two obvious things as far as I'm concerned. Though the reverse light's are not that obvious.
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Not that obvious? That's the first flaw I found in GT$ when I got it! Even NFS Porsche Unleashed had reverse and turning lights.
 
Ardius
Heh, I was warned before starting my games programming course that when you start making games, you begin seeing flaws in others and picking them apart, and thus not enjoying them anymore.
I haven't found this completely the case, you just notice things and can appreciate quality better. I'm still able to disengage my analytical mind and just enjoy the game for what it is though.

/offtopic :lol:
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There is an element of having to turn off yourself off to enjoy games. Tell you what though, when you get a good game (like Uncharted 2) you appreciate it for what it is. It's one of the greatest out there, yet MW2, which is a damn good game, has so many flaws, that I just can't ignore at times.

[truestory] I rarely play our game any more, and often have to load her up just to double check on things if I'm having to explain something to a customer. [/truestory] :dopey:
 
Dravonic
However, just because it lacks two details it's suddenly not detailed?
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Nope, because it lacks the basic detail of reverse lights the game is not as detailed as many people think.

Dravonic
*rest of the post*
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And amazingly, it fails to include the simplest detail one could even think of, which I have no doubt the average joe would have included in their game, no matter how crappy it is. Lack of reverse lights isn't just a missing detail, to me it's more like that. When the game is so realistic, graphically speaking (no idea physics wise), it really makes me think why such a thing wasn't included.

Anyways, you don't have to keep writing, as neither do I. Just to summarize my view on this matter, until GT gets reverse lights, it won't be a detailed simulation in my book. Nothing will change my opinion.
 
Lucas
Nope, because it lacks the basic detail of reverse lights the game is not as detailed as many people think.



And amazingly, it fails to include the simplest detail one could even think of, which I have no doubt the average joe would have included in their game, no matter how crappy it is. Lack of reverse lights isn't just a missing detail, to me it's more like that. When the game is so realistic, graphically speaking (no idea physics wise), it really makes me think why such a thing wasn't included.

Anyways, you don't have to keep writing, as neither do I. Just to summarize my view on this matter, until GT gets reverse lights, it won't be a detailed simulation in my book. Nothing will change my opinion.
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Well it doesn't claim to be a graphics simulator, does it? No, it claims to be a DRIVING simulator. Guess what, reverse lights have no affect on how a vehicle drives.
 
RedSuinit
Well it doesn't claim to be a graphics simulator, does it? No, it claims to be a DRIVING simulator. Guess what, reverse lights have no affect on how a vehicle drives.
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Neither do brake lights. Neither do scenery. Neither do car's graphics. Should GT be like that? Simple sprites driving in a white track on a black void?
 
Lucas
Nope, because it lacks the basic detail of reverse lights the game is not as detailed as many people think.



And amazingly, it fails to include the simplest detail one could even think of, which I have no doubt the average joe would have included in their game, no matter how crappy it is. Lack of reverse lights isn't just a missing detail, to me it's more like that. When the game is so realistic, graphically speaking (no idea physics wise), it really makes me think why such a thing wasn't included.

Anyways, you don't have to keep writing, as neither do I. Just to summarize my view on this matter, until GT gets reverse lights, it won't be a detailed simulation in my book. Nothing will change my opinion.
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Enlighten me how GT is not detailed, given the fact there are plenty of details. Too many to enumerate actually. Even though your opinion cannot be changed, mine can.

For now, all I can think of is: just because it lacks a detail you believe to be of extreme importance doesn't make it bland.
 
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Until GT5 is released we won't really know how bad or improved the A.I. is going to be. As far as the video releases has been with regards to the A.I. we don't really know at what stage of the developement that demo was. Plus, even in online races you have worst drivers out there compared to the A.I.

If you think you are so good then add some of the better drivers to your friends list so you will enjoy your GT experience more. But if you really want to race the A.I. then you will just have to adjust it in the options menu to your skill level and hope for the best.
 
Dravonic
Enlighten me how GT is not detailed, given the fact there are plenty of details.
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I'm almost sure I said "not as detailed as people think". Anyways, lack of reverse lights. Even the worst games have them. Obviously, there's something very wrong going on if you have those kind of graphics, but lack the most simplest thing.

Dravonic
For now, all I can think of is: just because it lacks a detail you believe to be of extreme importance doesn't make it bland.
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In general, of course. But on a game that has these kind of graphics, the lack of reverse lights is something that really stands out, or at least to me. Most of the people here don't seem to care, I have no idea why. Their reasons are not plausible at all. To me, the abscence of reverse lights makes me go "what?" whenever I see a car driving in reverse with such a beautiful scenery, plus the car as well modeled as it is. But if that doesn't make you go "what?", then I can do nothing about it. It comes from the heart, even if it sounds stupid. That's why I can't understand those who think they are not important, and you can't understand those who think they are.

I will stop here, because I know I'm not getting anywhere, nor will I get anywhere soon.
 
Lucas
Neither do brake lights. Neither do scenery. Neither do car's graphics. Should GT be like that? Simple sprites driving in a white track on a black void?
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Yor argument is still void. Yes they do strive for great graphics HOWEVER, it does not claim to be a graphics simulator, perfectly simulating (graphically) everyhting about the car. So your decision to "refuse to acknowledge GT as a graphics simulator" means absolutely nothing, because that is not a title they attempt to claim. Yet another person finding anything they can to complain about. Sometimes we as human beings can be the stupidest things on this planet.
 
RedSuinit
Yet another person finding anything they can to complain about. Sometimes we as human beings can be the stupidest things on this planet.
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I take it you are calling me stupid. No problem, I'm not saying I'm not. But I didn't have to find the lack of reverse lights to complain about them. I just had to go in reverse and "woops!". On the other hand, you seem like the kind of person trying to defend GT anyway they can. Hopefully I won't do otherwise, but I will try from now on not to post anything here, or better said, to not even enter this part of the forum, because asides from the lack of useful or interesting information, along with the usual fights that arise here, there's nothing I find entertaining, or at least funny.
 
Lucas
I take it you are calling me stupid. No problem, I'm not saying I'm not. But I didn't have to find the lack of reverse lights to complain about them. I just had to go in reverse and "woops!". On the other hand, you seem like the kind of person trying to defend GT anyway they can. Hopefully I won't do otherwise, but I will try from now on not to post anything here, or better said, to not even enter this part of the forum, because asides from the lack of useful or interesting information, along with the usual fights that arise here, there's nothing I find entertaining, or at least funny.
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You can take what I said however you want to, it was not directed at anyone. If you want to associate yourself with that, go for it. I am not defending GT anyway that I can, I was merely pointing out to you that your "reasoning" makes no sense. Sorry if you did not understand that simple implication.
 
Lucas
I'm almost sure I said "not as detailed as people think". Anyways, lack of reverse lights. Even the worst games have them. Obviously, there's something very wrong going on if you have those kind of graphics, but lack the most simplest thing.



In general, of course. But on a game that has these kind of graphics, the lack of reverse lights is something that really stands out, or at least to me. Most of the people here don't seem to care, I have no idea why. Their reasons are not plausible at all. To me, the abscence of reverse lights makes me go "what?" whenever I see a car driving in reverse with such a beautiful scenery, plus the car as well modeled as it is. But if that doesn't make you go "what?", then I can do nothing about it. It comes from the heart, even if it sounds stupid. That's why I can't understand those who think they are not important, and you can't understand those who think they are.

I will stop here, because I know I'm not getting anywhere, nor will I get anywhere soon.
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Well you asked me to enlighten you on how GT is detailed and when I tried to you didn't agree, so I assumed you don't think it is. Anyways, lack of reverse lights. You're missing something here. Because GT has such advanced graphics it's not that easy to put reverse lights in the cars (although that's not true for GT4 and below. It would be a lot simpler to put reverse lights on them). Notice how the brake and head lights lit up as they do in the real cars. When it comes to GT5, unlike the average joe's, it's not just lighting up a fake light that looks pretty much the same on every car. It's serious work. And when you consider doing it for about a thousand cars, it becomes a time demanding task. Sure that's no excuse and I'm not trying to come up with an excuse for PD. I'm just trying to let you know it's not that simple as you're making it out to be.

Moving on, people are different indeed. For example, your sig strikes me as really odd. I much prefer more cars then skid marks and reverse lights. It doesn't mean we can't share our views on the matter though. While I can understand that you don't like this detail not present in GT games, I can't agree that GT as a whole is lacking in detail. It's certainly missing some important ones but to say it's a letdown in the detail area is far fetched to me. You may have never said it, but that's what I feel you're trying to say.

Anyway, I think I got it. Even though the game is full of details, since it's lacking one of great importance to you, you feel it's a letdown in the detail department. Since I don't care about reverse lights, and little things like reflections on the steering wheel logo look awesome to me, I think it delivers in details.

Well I don't know about you, but I think I got somewhere.
 
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Simulate:
To have or take on the appearance, form, or sound of; imitate.

If you don't have reverse lights, how are you appearing like you are reversing?
 
NissanSkylineN1
Simulate:
To have or take on the appearance, form, or sound of; imitate.

If you don't have reverse lights, how are you appearing like you are reversing?
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By moving at the direction the back of the car is facing?

Your car doesn't reverse if the reverse lights aren't working?
 
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RedSuinit
Your argument is still void. Yes they do strive for great graphics HOWEVER, it does not claim to be a graphics simulator, perfectly simulating (graphically) everything about the car. So your decision to "refuse to acknowledge GT as a graphics simulator" means absolutely nothing, because that is not a title they attempt to claim. Yet another person finding anything they can to complain about. Sometimes we as human beings can be the stupidest things on this planet.
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They do claim it as the "Real Driving Simulator" though, last I checked if a car is driving in reverse the reverse lights are on and if that person spins the tires there are lines left on the pavement.
 
Justin
They do claim it as the "Real Driving Simulator" though, last I checked if a car is driving in reverse the reverse lights are on and if that person spins the tires there are lines left on the pavement.
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But, do either of those things have an affect on the way that the car DRIVES. If the answer is no, (and guess what, it IS) then it has no significance in a driving simulator, resulting in your argument meaning absolutely nothing.

NissanSkylineN1
How would you like it if all of the reverse lights were gone in life? Insurance companies would surely go bankrupt.
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I didn't have working reverse lights in my Ford Escort ZX2 for YEARS. My record is clean.
 
Toronado
Why have we dedicated 30 posts to back up lights in a thread about AI?
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One subject leads to another and another...

It's natural really. We just have to go back soon enough not to cause any serious case of thread derailing.
 
Because SOMEONE is so stubborn that he thinks that reverse lights should not be in GT5, even though he has been out proven, he cannot admit it. Here, i'll post a poll. Let's see who is more wrong.
 
NissanSkylineN1
Because SOMEONE is so stubborn that he thinks that reverse lights should not be in GT5, even though he has been out proven, he cannot admit it. Here, i'll post a poll. Let's see who is more wrong.
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If you're talking about me you got it wrong. I think reverse lights should be in. I just don't think it's a big problem not having them.
 

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