Welp. Someone has to say it.... (AI thread)

[cletus 669]

Of course good AI can be made. I can't know how good TOCA's is without playing it but I don't think anyone was trying to say that GT's AI is the best one around.

Good AI is hard to do, as you pointed out it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you still need a team dedicated to it to get it right. Unfortunately Kazunori appears not to care enough about it to hire some new guys or transfer people from another area to the AI. It's not like PD are a bunch of lazy incompetents, like some appear to be saying, because they can't get it right though. It just appears that AI is not the focus of the game.

And about having to drive in a certain way to enjoy the AI, I was referring to GT only. Due to it's AI limitations, if you don't drive properly you'll have problems with it but that doesn't necessarily apply to other games. In Shift for example, you need to drive like you're in a demolition derby because if you try to drive properly the AI will take you out regularly. In a game with good AI like TOCA, it probably doesn't matter how you drive.

I think the AI is good enough to get you through GT mode and after that you get online this time so KY probably thought well it serves it's purpose good enough so lets work on the other parts of the game this time.

 

[IsmokeGT]

If it's not in GT5 it's either a choice to poorly represent an integral part of racing or a failure of ability. I think a lot of people really haven't ever played much outside of GT and Forza and probably a lot haven't even played Forza yet are making claims based on their need to find a reason GT has poor AI.

AI is an integral part of racing?
It may have been integral in sim racing several years ago, but now it is utterly useles to me. I play GT5P every day, and I haven't raced AI in over a year. In fact, the day I got broadband is the day I said "c ya" to AI.

Again, this is not saying it shouldn't be improved, but it is going down the priority list, and is likely it won't improve very much.

Also, in the video you posted, skip to around 48 seconds. The guy passes 3 or 4 cars in one turn! The AI is just sitting on the outside waiting to be passed

 

[Dravonic]

That's the impression I get. Also pretty/fancier = longer to load, the other typical designer approach.

It's not even like there's much to be done it's a pretty basic interface, never mind hiring an expensive HCI consultant just ask any 5 year old who's seen a good interface before. I mean, really, this is systems design 101

example: I want to view a replay. 1st I need to exit back to main menu from wherever I am. Then I go into replays then I select the replay from the list then do I watch it? No then it says "replay loaded" then I need to click "exit" for some reason, the most likely I can work out is "cos it will annoy me" then it plays the replay then returns me to the main menu, just in case I wanted to watch it again or view another one. Then I swear at the telly. Really LOUD!!!!!

When making an interface prettiness and functionality are on different ends of a slider. The better it looks, the less functional it will be. The more functional it is, the worse it will look. It looks like Kazunori decided to pull that slider a lot to the prettiness side. The result is amazing but unresponsive. Would I trade it for a faster but worse-looking interface? Nope. It fit's so much with the game that it's worth waiting all that time for it to load. At least to me.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I see no reason why look and functionality can't both be improved. Improving functionality is a simple matter of working out what menu option the user is going to be likely to select, from where, and making sure there's as direct a path as possible from one to the next.

PD on the other hand seem to have gone the other way and decided that, from anywhere in the menu system, the process of going anywhere else should involve first returning to the main menu, via as many selections as possible, then drilling back down through the same amount of screens to get to the chosen option.

None of this requires a sacrifice in terms of aesthetic, simply a bit of thought.

 

[Dravonic]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I see no reason why look and functionality can't both be improved. Improving functionality is a simple matter of working out what menu option the user is going to be likely to select, from where, and making sure there's as direct a path as possible from one to the next.

PD on the other hand seem to have gone the other way and decided that, from anywhere in the menu system, the process of going anywhere else should involve first returning to the main menu, via as many selections as possible, then drilling back down through the same amount of screens to get to the chosen option.

None of this requires a sacrifice in terms of aesthetic, simply a bit of thought.

OK, you're talking about the menu paths. I thought you were talking about the long menu loading times. Sure the paths can be changed and shortcuts can be made so you need less menu screens to get somewhere.

Anyway I want to say that I do think that the menu as a whole is organized. I can easily know where everything is, since everything I need is in it's own category at the main menu. That said, I agree that it needs shortcuts since the menus take so long to load.

I did a couple of sketches to try to explain better what I mean:

This is basically how the menu is organized in prologue:

It's neatly organized but if you need to go somewhere, you have a long path to follow.

This is basically what I believe you are saying you want them to do:

It becomes kinda messy but if you're in the race screen for example you can go to the options in one step instead of having to go back up to the main screen and down the options. This was somewhat present in GT4 so I think these kinds of shortcuts will be in GT5 too.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

That's my point exactly. It's also something that would take very little effort to fix. Gimme 5mins, a pen and the back of a fag packet and I'll do you an improved structure.

 

[Tornado]

AI is an integral part of racing?
It may have been integral in sim racing several years ago, but now it is utterly useles to me. I play GT5P every day, and I haven't raced AI in over a year. In fact, the day I got broadband is the day I said "c ya" to AI.

Again, this is not saying it shouldn't be improved, but it is going down the priority list, and is likely it won't improve very much.

Hey, remember this?

And to those of you who are acting as if AI isn't a big deal because you'll just play online anyways, kindly remove yourself from the thread.

You are coming into a thread that was started by someone who clearly thinks it is a big priority, expressing how it isn't a big priority for you, and then acting like it therefore shouldn't be a big priority for anyone.

 

[turbomp301]

Hey, remember this?

You are coming into a thread that was started by someone who clearly thinks it is a big priority, expressing how it isn't a big priority for you, and then acting like it therefore shouldn't be a big priority for anyone.

And because it is a big priority to him, it should be a big priority to everyone else?

Refer to post #91

 

[Tornado]

And because it is a big priority to him, it should be a big priority to everyone else?

No. But it doesn't make much sense coming into a thread started by someone who finds something important and making an argument of essentially "I don't think it is important at all," does it? It really isn't conducive to debate to say "I don't care about the problems because they don't effect me."

Refer to post #91

You mean the biggest joke of a post in the entire thread that is in no way relevant to the topic at hand in the first place? Am I suppose to infer a proper argument from "just shut up and go on a track day?"

 

[Dravonic]

And because it is a big priority to him, it should be a big priority to everyone else?

Refer to post #91

Nope but since GT was always about single player, and the single player will still be a big part of it, you'd expect PD to put more effort into the AI since it's crucial to the single player mode.

The game should work for both audiences. Or you'll be left with the FPS syndrome where most developers make a ridiculous 5 hours campaign almost entirely neglecting single player since the game is all about online.

 

[IsmokeGT]

You are coming into a thread that was started by someone who clearly thinks it is a big priority, expressing how it isn't a big priority for you, and then acting like it therefore shouldn't be a big priority for anyone.

Who made you king ruler?

I'm just letting you, and the OP, know that it is NOT a big priority for PD, and it is getting smaller and smaller. I never expressed what is anyone's priority besides myself, and my opinion PD's priorities.

One more thing, just because the OP thinks it is a big priority means I can't express my opinion, or express my opinion on what PD is (obviously) doing?

 

[TouringDevotee]

Surely they've by now learned from web browsers. How about they do whatever they do for a menu, and then add a simple drop down menu. This way you can just pick where to go from wherever you are.

The problem, I think, is that PD is into style overkill.

 

[Tornado]

Who made you king ruler?

GT5 final comes out. One of the tracks is glitched so it crashes the game. I don't drive that track, so I claim it isn't a problem.
Going through your posts in this thread, I understand that you aren't doing that, and I apologize for lashing out. But there are people in this thread who very much have been, as well as people who have been doing so with the same crutch whenever something remotely similar comes up. Don't like the structure of the career mode? Shut up and play online. Worried about lack of a split screen option? Shut up and play online. Worried about rubber-banding being held over from GT:M? Shut up and play online. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

 

[turbomp301]

Nope but since GT was always about single player, and the single player will still be a big part of it, you'd expect PD to put more effort into the AI since it's crucial to the single player mode.

The game should work for both audiences. Or you'll be left with the FPS syndrome where most developers make a ridiculous 5 hours campaign almost entirely neglecting single player since the game is all about online.

The A.I. has gotten better with every release. The A.I. will be better in GT5 than its ever been, but understand A.I. will never be perfect. The best A.I. improvemnet PD ever did, IMO, is add multiplayer to the game. Now with online multiplayer, I will always have someone to play with.


P.S. this thread ended after post #91

 

[Dravonic]

Surely they've by now learned from web browsers. How about they do whatever they do for a menu, and then add a simple drop down menu. This way you can just pick where to go from wherever you are.

The problem, I think, is that PD is into style overkill.

I agree. PD appears to have a policy of "If we can't make it look good, it won't make it into the game". I believe that's one of the reasons it took so long for them to implement damage. I believe that they won't do anything to the menus that would make them look worse, even if it's helpful to the user.

 

[IsmokeGT]

@ Toronado- Thanks. 👍 I agree with you, also.

 

[Tornado]

P.S. this thread ended after post #91

See post 249.

 

[NLxAROSA]

It's neatly organized but if you need to go somewhere, you have a long path to follow.

Yes, and apparently, PD does know how to use shortcuts, because if you accidentally hit the exit button next to the tuning button in an arcade race: BLAM, back to the main menu. No warning, nothing. Of course, if that happens, you will have to follow the hard way back in.

 

[Dravonic]

The A.I. has gotten better with every release. The A.I. will be better in GT5 than its ever been, but understand A.I. will never be perfect. The best A.I. improvemnet PD ever did, IMO, is add multiplayer to the game. Now with online multiplayer, I will always have someone to play with.


P.S. this thread ended after post #91

You're misinterpreting me. Probably because you stopped reading it after post #91

The AI certainly is evolving, and it will not be perfect, not anytime soon. What I'm saying is, having seen better AI in other games, I want GT to have an AI as good as those or even better. I think it is decent already. Works good enough for me. However, when it comes to GT, I expect the best and the AI is far from it.

It doesn't bother me too much because since GT5P I made a jump to online and I couldn't be happier with it. Still, it would be nice to have epic AI.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, and apparently, PD does know how to use shortcuts, because if you accidentally hit the exit button next to the tuning button in an arcade race: BLAM, back to the main menu. No warning, nothing. Of course, if that happens, you will have to follow the hard way back in.

I remember GT2 has menu shortcuts parlayed over the top of the screen. Every time I play it, I would always hit the Game Status one on accident at least once.

 

[IsmokeGT]

I remember GT2...

How?! I played GT2 some, but I played GT3, and GT4... a LOT, yet I can't seem to remember anything about the menu's, or any details at all. I remember the cars, the tracks, and the experience... no details though. I envy such a memory!

 

[Tornado]

^ I have it on my PSP. I was actually playing it just a couple days ago.

 

[IsmokeGT]

^ I have it on my PSP. I was actually playing it just a couple days ago.

I'll toss on the for a while.

 

[blademask]

eh.. what the heck is going on now :\

 

[TouringDevotee]

I know what I want to feel from the AI and it is covered by one word.

E . x . c . i . t . e . m . e . n . t



Edit: They really need to work on having the AI do some major overtaking of one another in the corners.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Not a case of internet rage? Well...

I believe you actually already made a reverse light to a game right? I claim it's hard by my own experience with Maya. Specially since this is not raytraced, automatically made by a program, light like the sort I can use in Maya. They need to come up with some neat tricks to make it look like it's lit when in fact it's brightening up some areas of different textures or something of the sort. I figure it can be done in some hours so it's not exactly improving-the-AI hard but it certainly is considerable work. Even more so if you compare it to the work by other games that are not worried if the lights look anywhere near like they do in the real cars.

By "fake light" I meant lights that don't look in the game like they look in the real cars. The light can be considered "fake" for many other reasons, much like a word can have more than one meaning. The other meanings are just not what I was saying.

By "It's serious work" I meant that making the reverse lights is not just playing around with some engine settings for a minute or two and BAM, there it is (pun partially intended). I really don't know how you misunderstood that.

Making the reverse lights is a time demanding task no matter what. You can give up work on something else and use that time to do it, but you will still spend valuable man-hours on it. Anyway, I much prefer epic car models over skid marks and reverse lights.

Also, from where I stand, there are many details that bring GT alive. Maybe not alive and kicking, but alive surely.

No, I haven't done reverse lights into a game, nor A.I. bots... I haven't driven a Dodge Viper either, but I know it's fast regardless.

I get your point tho, however I think other games have done it decently and the lights look 'fake' anyway IMO, also what's the difference between headlights, which are already in GT5 and reverse lights? It's on or off, easy.
Also about cars VS lights and tire marks, those would just need to be programmed once, while a new car has to be made basically from scratch each time, so I'd rather lose one car and get proper effects, but ok each to their own, I guess.
Disagree about the 'aliveness' too, especially from what I've seen in GT5, cars 👍 , environment, interaction 👎

 

[Stonemonkey]

Probably not much difference in putting in reverse lights as brake lights.

 

[Devedander]

Of course good AI can be made. I can't know how good TOCA's is without playing it but I don't think anyone was trying to say that GT's AI is the best one around.

Really everyone who enjoys racing games and especially those who take their racing games seriously should give toca a try. Its gotta be cheap for consoles and probably there are free demos for PC? Its honestly about the most exciting, natural feeling racing AI I have ever been up against.

If you get the chance to try it, seriously do... I think you will be surprised and it will give you some good perspective with which to view how racing games are progressing.

AI is an integral part of racing?
It may have been integral in sim racing several years ago, but now it is utterly useles to me. I play GT5P every day, and I haven't raced AI in over a year. In fact, the day I got broadband is the day I said "c ya" to AI.

Again, this is not saying it shouldn't be improved, but it is going down the priority list, and is likely it won't improve very much.

Also, in the video you posted, skip to around 48 seconds. The guy passes 3 or 4 cars in one turn! The AI is just sitting on the outside waiting to be passed

If you look I didnt say AI is an integral part of racing, I said they are not simulating an integral part of racing . The integral part is competent opponent drivers and the simulating part is using AI instead of actual people.

Congratulations that you don't play against AI and it doesn't effect you.

If I like to just ram cars into stuff and never really race thus making a solid physics engine worthless to me, would that make a bad physics engine not an issue?

You dont change Ismoke... always popping in to add something useless to the conversation

Then again I guess I dont exactly change either

 

[myke6699]

Yes, and apparently, PD does know how to use shortcuts, because if you accidentally hit the exit button next to the tuning button in an arcade race: BLAM, back to the main menu. No warning, nothing. Of course, if that happens, you will have to follow the hard way back in.

I prefer that over what's in NFS for example. To exit to main menu during a race: You press (O) to exit>Do you want to exit" Y?/N=you press Y>"You will lose your current race etc. Are you sure?" Y/N= you press Y>Race Menu>You press Exit>"Do you want to exit" Y?/N=you press Y>"You will lose your current race etc. Are you sure?" Y/N= you press Y> finally you're back on the main menu. And that's just for quick race, non-career mode.

I remember in GT4's GT Mode, you do have to go through few YES/NO before you finally be able to leave a race as precautionary measures.

Playing GT4, though, can really test my patience at times especially at the beginning. Example: having picked a car for a race series, I'd then find out that it's the wrong car. Went back to my garage, only to find out that I didn't have the car at all. Then jumped to the country where I thought I might be able to find a car that meets the requirement except there was no such car. Finally found the car, back at the race menu but then had to go back to the manufacturer to get the appropriate tires.

I think it's quite intentional on PD's part to make the whole process more deliberate or methodical but as frustrating as it may had been at first, it never felt as clunky as NFS or that other console sim.

 

[yossigab]

AI is an integral part of racing?
It may have been integral in sim racing several years ago, but now it is utterly useles to me. I play GT5P every day, and I haven't raced AI in over a year. In fact, the day I got broadband is the day I said "c ya" to AI.

Again, this is not saying it shouldn't be improved, but it is going down the priority list, and is likely it won't improve very much.

Also, in the video you posted, skip to around 48 seconds. The guy passes 3 or 4 cars in one turn! The AI is just sitting on the outside waiting to be passed

Back to the AI issue...
(I do think that menu/options thread is needed for those discussions).

IsmokeGT - you said that around 48 seconds the AI is on the outside and waiting to be passed - Well, that is the whole point of a GOOD AI. For me (and others) a Good AI meabs it imitating human-driver and not driving like a computer. And just like human will drive with mistakes (some will do more, some other less) then the AI shall act similar, and sometimes in a race you will be able to pass the AI not because you have more power under the hood, but because he made a mistake on that particular turn, and you took it better & faster. And it also means that in the previous try of that race (or the next one if you like), the same AI didn't do the same mistake at the same place because it is random and not pre-programmed.

And the number of mistakes (and their types) should be depends on the skill level you choose to race.

BTW - I think that some people here confusing the term "GOOD AI" with "HARD AI".
A GOOD AI means that it drives similar to human. It doesn't mean (at least not necessarily) that it's hard to be pass - this depends on the level (as mentioned above).

A HARD AI means that it's hard to be pass, but not not necessarily drive like human. In GT5P the AI is hard (especially the Sx events), but not Good...