"What’s inside Newey and Vettel’s magic hat?" by Giancarlo Minardi

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Singapore, What’s inside Newey and Vettel’s magic hat?
27 settembre 2013 Di Staff Minardi

Waiting for the Korean GP, the F.1 Championship’s 14th event to take place at the beginning of October, I would like to bring back all the wonderful memories linked to my experience at the Marina Bay Street Circuit and make some remarks about the Singapore GP, which I’d like to share with you and try to find some answers.

I will start by saying that I was enthralled by the Singapore background. It was a brand new experience, which was completely different from any other experience I was used to live (the circuit opens only in the afternoon and closes at late night). I had the chance to monitor all drivers’ on-track deeds from a suite located at the end of the pit’s straight (which leads to the first chicane). The monitor I used to watch the race displayed also all drivers’ laptimes.

Since I left Singapore, I’ve been keeping in my mind the 2.5 sec advantage of Vettel over his teammate Webber and the other drivers.

INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT: By this statement It’s not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull the best way and I don’t want even to jab at anyone, I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during that three-day-event.

According to my experience, I think that a 2.5 sec advantage each lap is really too much. It’s like a three-generation- development gap, it’s a huge gap. Furthermore, the time gap between Vettel and Grosjean in FP3 and the Red Bull’s driver and Rosberg in qualifying was only few tenths. The German driver could have played cat and mouse on Saturday, anyway, something is still not clear for me.

DOUBT 1: from my suite, I chose some mainstays as a reference point in order to monitor and compare the drivers’ way of driving. My mainstays were the kerbstones located on the corner which leads to Republic Boulevard. Their function is to avoid passing on the kerb. I was impressed by Vettel’s neat way of driving on that stretch of the track. He was able to drive all that stretch without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals (also his teammate). His laptime was also remarkable in T3, which is the track’s sector with the highest concentration of corners.



DOUBT 2: on the same stretch, Sebastian was able to speed up 50 m before any other driver, Webber included. Whilst all the other drivers speeded up on the same stretch, Vettel was able to speed up before them. The thing that surprised me the most was the RB1 engine’s output sound. Besides speeding up 50 m before any other driver, the Renault engine of the German’s car grinded like no other French engines on track, neither like Mark’s. That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons.

Furthermore, that sound was only heard when Vettel chalked up his excellent performances. For example, after the safety car went off, he took a great re-start and chalked up many excellent laps, gaining a 32 sec. gap over Alonso, then he leveled off, taking precautions in the case he would have had to pit one more time. In those moments the Renault engine was more powerful than any other engines (Renault and other brands).

There are some aspects (1- Vettel’s very neat way of driving; 2-Vettel’s speedup 50 m before the other drivers; 3- the abnormal sound of the RB1’s Renault engine; 4- Vetter’s more than 2 sec. advantage over the rivals ) that make me think and I would like to have some answers. All those doubts are even more serious if we consider that Webber wasn’t able to do that, since he’s a common human being….I don’t want to blame anyone , I just would like to get into the deep of the matter.
 
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Good post HKS.:D
I always wondered why zer german wins by so much too.
Considering Webber has the same car,(different setup) he never gets close anymore.
 
Level of proof: Zero.

Italians just being Italians as usual, they're not winning so claim the other teams are cheating. Which is laughable for a start because he's saying only Seb's car has these magic illegal parts and engine. If Red Bull had these magic parts why would they not fit them to both cars to guarantee a 1-2, or close to it?

Seriously, it's nonsense without an ounce of evidence. If any of the teams actually still in F1 suspected foul play they would go to the stewards/FIA who would investigate. The fact they haven't, and the fact his car passes scrutineering every race shows that this is just nonsense.
 
Level of proof: Zero.

Italians just being Italians as usual, they're not winning so claim the other teams are cheating. Which is laughable for a start because he's saying only Seb's car has these magic illegal parts and engine. If Red Bull had these magic parts why would they not fit them to both cars to guarantee a 1-2, or close to it?

Seriously, it's nonsense without an ounce of evidence. If any of the teams actually still in F1 suspected foul play they would go to the stewards/FIA who would investigate. The fact they haven't, and the fact his car passes scrutineering every race shows that this is just nonsense.
Because if Webber has the same car he can crash Vettel out of the race.
Mark will leave RB this year and they don't exactly like each other. He has many reasons to do that, at the same time RB has many reason to boycott Webber preventing any battle for position by their drivers, expecially considering the Constructor champ is pretty much over.

Minardi is a respectable ex F1 manager not a random forum guy like you and me. He explained his point of view, you wasn't there watching the race on the circuit, you wasn't there hearing the sound, if he has zero proof your words count even less. He said he is not accusing RB he said he had doubts and he would like to get into the deep of the matter. We are not talking about Briatore, Minardi is a person known in F1 ambient for his honesty and fair play.

Oh and "Italians just being Italians" said by a non Italian person sounds like racism to me, if only a black person is somehow allowed to say "🤬" to another black person the same apply to Italians when they blame each others. You shouldn't allowed to use the word "Italians" to express something bad or even remotely related to racial discrimination.
 
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Level of proof: Zero.

Italians just being Italians as usual, they're not winning so claim the other teams are cheating. Which is laughable for a start because he's saying only Seb's car has these magic illegal parts and engine. If Red Bull had these magic parts why would they not fit them to both cars to guarantee a 1-2, or close to it?

Seriously, it's nonsense without an ounce of evidence. If any of the teams actually still in F1 suspected foul play they would go to the stewards/FIA who would investigate. The fact they haven't, and the fact his car passes scrutineering every race shows that this is just nonsense.

Exactly my thoughts. I'm not best pleased that Vettel won so dominantly as it sets the scene for the closing stage of the championship i.e. a boring procession where only second place is up for grabs realistically. But these allegations of cheating are absurd.

Firstly, once Webber cleared traffic he was nearly two seconds faster than Kimi and Alonso. If it wasn't for the engine failure, he would have been right on Alonso's gearbox at the end of the race. It's clear that they have the same equipment and that Vettel is simply faster in qualifying which gives him a huge advantage. I've watched similar situations between Button and Hamilton when they were at Mclaren. They both start in traffic? They're neck and neck throughout the race. Lewis qualified pole? Button is 1+ second a lap off his pace - it isn't a coincidence, it just shows how hugely important qualifying is. It just so happens that qualifying is Vettel's speciality (And Hamilton's, to refer back to his success relative to teammates).

Secondly, traction control systems are banned. Any software ran on the ECU has to be approved by the FIA. Attempts at working around this to get a traction control effect (By using extreme engine maps and the blown diffuser) have been restricted. If RBR have managed to pull the wool over everybodies eyes, i'd be impressed.

All the observations about the corrections show is that the Red Bull has both very good downforce, a perfect balance and that Vettel has great car control with a car that is on the limit. Whilst it has to be commended how fast Vettel can drive, it's clear that the Red Bull is an easier car to drive on the limit than their closest competitors. When you put an alien driver in a car like that he's going to be hard to catch.

The fact Vettel was able to maintain this pace throughout the race is a product of both the clean air he enjoyed, and the exceptional tyre wear rates on the Red Bull. It also helped that Rosberg was conserving his tyres and holding the field up, which made the gap look even bigger.

There is no foul play here, just a really fast car with an annoyingly fast driver at the wheel. I hope the regulation changes mix things up a bit.
 
I mean the thing is constructed well, but others are right it doesn't prove anything also a clip to compare sounds would have been nice.
 
Seismica I would agree with your post if we were talking about a 0.6 / 0.8 sec difference each lap wich is still a LOT in F1, but 2,5 sec is borderline ridiculous. All this stuff Minardi is saying will never be proven but it surely will keep arousing suspicion, expecially on the rattle engine noise part.
also a clip to compare sounds would have been nice.
Yes. Unfortunately our old school Minardi is not a youtube kind of guy, but I want to hear this difference as well.
 
Because if Webber has the same car he can crash Vettel out of the race.
Mark will leave RB this year and they don't exactly like each other. He has many reasons to do that, at the same time RB has many reason to boycott Webber preventing any battle for position by their drivers, expecially considering the Constructor champ is pretty much over.

What a load of nonsense.

Minardi is a respectable ex F1 manager not a random forum guy like you and me. He explained his point of view, you wasn't there watching the race on the circuit, you wasn't there hearing the sound, if he has zero proof your words count even less. He said he is not accusing RB he said he had doubts and he would like to get into the deep of the matter. We are not talking about Briatore, Minardi is a person known in F1 ambient for his honesty and fair play.

That might all be true, all I'm saying is it's pointless, anyone can come up with theories, the car passes scrutineering and all tests, it's legal. If any teams thought otherwise they would challenge it, look at all the things Red Bull have been tested on in the past. Yet where are the calls from teams about Vettel's car being illegal? Nowhere.

Vettel's pace was searing in Singapore but there are no real suggestions of cheating and importantly, no evidence.

Oh and "Italians just being Italians" said by a non Italian person sounds like racism to me, if only a black person is somehow allowed to say "🤬" to another black person the same apply to Italians when they blame each others. You shouldn't allowed to use the word "Italians" to express something bad or even remotely related to racial discrimination.

Italian isn't a race and I made a perfectly valid observation based on the past.
 
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What 2.5 second gap is this?

They're referring to the gap Vettel pulled out on many laps in the race, 1.5 - 2.5 seconds over whoever was in second. What is worth also pointing out though is that it wasn't 2.5 seconds over the entire field, rather just the person in second, mostly Rosberg and Alonso. It also wasn't every lap as some people like to suggest.
 
They're referring to the gap Vettel pulled out on many laps in the race, 1.5 - 2.5 seconds over whoever was in second. What is worth also pointing out though is that it wasn't 2.5 seconds over the entire field, rather just the person in second, mostly Rosberg and Alonso. It also wasn't every lap as some people like to suggest.

Yeah it was mainly at the start of new stints then it was more like .5 after he peaked off.
 
What if...

Vettel might turn out to be the greatest driver we have seen so far in a F1 car?

Maybe he has an edge over other people reading the track lines, finding more time than anyone else? He is seriously talented, and now he has a couple of years F1 racing under his belt, and now we are seeing possibly the greatest driver ever.

Possibly/maybe of course.
 
Powerful words.

What if....The tyres weren't changed after Hungary?
What if... Newey left to other motorsport teams?
What if... Kimi went to Red Bull next year?
What if...

What if... You would shut up from time to time?
 
So three or four isn't enough...five is what it has to be? Sometimes the things I read on here hurt my head.

At this point I wouldn't definitively say that he's the greatest F1 to have ever lived, but if he can dominate and win the title again next year, then it would be hard to see who could stop him.
 
At this point I wouldn't definitively say that he's the greatest F1 to have ever lived, but if he can dominate and win the title again next year, then it would be hard to see who could stop him.

It's somewhat incorrect to judge a driver solely on the number of championships he has won. Although it is an important aspect to look at you have to see how hard they were earned. I will take nothing away from his 2010 & 2012 championships however, with the 2011 RB so dominant, even some of the pay drivers could of won the championship in that car. The way that it is going, this year is no different.
 
with the 2011 RB so dominant, even some of the pay drivers could of won the championship in that car.

Firstly, it's could have. Not of. The words could and of rarely appear together in the English language and even when they do, the meaning is completely different.

Secondly, what do you think of Webber? He was 134 points behind Vettel by the end of 2011. Are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Max Chilton and Pastor Maldonado would have done better? Too many people are quick to put Vettel's success down to the car but they rarely comment on Webber. If Vettel is merely an average driver in an amazing car like some seem to suggest, that must make Webber the second coming of Jean-Denis Deletraz.
 
Secondly, what do you think of Webber? He was 134 points behind Vettel by the end of 2011. Are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Max Chilton and Pastor Maldonado would have done better? Too many people are quick to put Vettel's success down to the car but they rarely comment on Webber. If Vettel is merely an average driver in an amazing car like some seem to suggest, that must make Webber the second coming of Jean-Denis Deletraz.

Webber's 2011 was really poor probably the worst of his career he didn't adapt well to the pirelli tyres.

I don't think Vettel is an average driver I would definitely classify him as a great driver however I don't think he is the greatest driver of all time just because wins 5 world championships which was suggested earlier.
 
What a load of nonsense.
Yeah exactly like this

And the countless times Webber had problems because of the team.

That might all be true, all I'm saying is it's pointless, anyone can come up with theories, the car passes scrutineering and all tests, it's legal. If any teams thought otherwise they would challenge it, look at all the things Red Bull have been tested on in the past. Yet where are the calls from teams about Vettel's car being illegal? Nowhere.

Vettel's pace was searing in Singapore but there are no real suggestions of cheating and importantly, no evidence.
He can't prove it but he expressed a valid point based on what he saw and heard. RedBull was already found to be using illegal parts in Monaco GP 2012 but he FIA didn't punished them they only said "not use those things anymore".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...e-Red-Bull-car-illegal-changes-Canada-GP.html
http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/80373.html

And look at this video, suspictious skidmarks at Montereal
http://jalopnik.com/has-red-bull-figured-out-how-to-cheat-f1s-traction-con-514107361
the discussion made a lot of noise around the world
https://www.google.it/#q=red+bull+using+traction+control

Italian isn't a race and I made a perfectly valid observation based on the past.
Territorial discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination. You used "Italians" word as dispregative and that's not acceptable. It's like saying "germans being germans" meaning they are all nazi killers bacause of the past. I repeat, NOT acceptable.

For your information recently some supporters of an italian football team have been involved in territorial discrimination, their team was sued and forced to close that stadium sector.http://scholarsandrogues.com/2013/09/26/italian-football-sanctions-ac-milan-over-fan-insensitivity/
 
Yeah exactly like this

And the countless times Webber had problems because of the team.


What, are you suggesting they do stuff like that on purpose? You must be crazy.


He can't prove it but he expressed a valid point based on what he saw and heard. RedBull was already found to be using illegal parts in Monaco GP 2012 but he FIA didn't punished them they only said "not use those things anymore".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...e-Red-Bull-car-illegal-changes-Canada-GP.html
http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport/story/80373.html

Yes and would you like to know why? Because the car already passed scrutineering, ergo it's the FIA's fault not claiming it illegal straight away. You can't say it's legal, pass the car then change your mind and punish them. It wouldn't fly.

And look at this video, suspictious skidmarks at Montereal
http://jalopnik.com/has-red-bull-figured-out-how-to-cheat-f1s-traction-con-514107361
the discussion made a lot of noise around the world
https://www.google.it/#q=red+bull+using+traction+control

A lot of noise amongst people who hate Red Bull, maybe. Experts on the subject, actual engineers in F1, came up with perfectly reasonable explanations. Also once again, no F1 teams actually made a fuss about it. Why? Because they likely also knew what caused it and it wasn't traction control.

Territorial discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination. You used "Italians" word as dispregative and that's not acceptable. It's like saying "germans being germans" meaning they are all nazi killers bacause of the past. I repeat, NOT acceptable.

No, thats not the same at all, unless I was commenting on an article about Germans mass murdering jews.
 
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