"What’s inside Newey and Vettel’s magic hat?" by Giancarlo Minardi

  • Thread starter HKS racer
  • 148 comments
  • 9,010 views
Samus, is right even if RB are/were cheating and even if the Minardi article had some validity the reality is the FIA is at fault for not catching or not upholding their laws the best possible. We all know that the FIA has had trouble at being consistent, however, while I say this it doesn't mean that I'm saying 100% RBR cheated (though I think they do bend).
 
ALL teams bend the rules, or at least try to. The only difference is nobody cares if the car isn't fast. The Marussia could be loaded with all manner of illegal parts and loophole jumping settings, nobody cares because they aren't at the front.

If anyone (not directing at you) thinks all teams get the rulebooks out and design their car following them to the each word and diagram well, they're in for a surprise.
 
Split from the Singapore GP thread is this is not related to that.
 
Last edited:
The Minardi link was related directly in relation to Singapore and Vettel win, hence the discussion so... that is where these comments stem from (at least mine)
 
Every team cheats every race. Some more than others. Every team knows every team cheats. Any possible advantage they can gain from anything from aero to the amount of fuel measured at the end of a session, they will take. Only when a car has a clear advantage does someone complain. This is the way it works unless they themselves wish to conceal an illegality which is also helping them. This is how F1 that has and always will work.

I used to be taught by an ex-Lotus mechanic and he basically said the same as this.
 
Last edited:
Every team cheats every race. Some more than others. Every team knows every team cheats. Any possible advantage they can gain from anything from aero to the amount of fuel measured at the end of a session, they will take. Only when a car has a clear advantage does someone complain. This is the way it works unless they themselves wish to conceal an illegality which is also helping them. This is how F1 that has and always will work.

I used to be taught by an ex-Lotus mechanic and he basically said the same as this.

That's how all racing works.


Also, they claim Vettel and Red Bull are cheating because he pulled out the gap he managed to get on the restart? Did they even bother to think that the other teams were most likely conserving tires due to their strategies?
 
If anyone (not directing at you) thinks all teams get the rulebooks out and design their car following them to the each word and diagram well, they're in for a surprise.
I'm pretty sure that they do. And that includes following the rule book right down the grey areas it doesn't clearly state.

Then the rule book is rewritten for that grey area and they move on to the next. Except that generally the teams are 3 grey areas ahead of the FIA.
 
I'm pretty sure that they do. And that includes following the rule book right down the grey areas it doesn't clearly state.

Then the rule book is rewritten for that grey area and they move on to the next. Except that generally the teams are 3 grey areas ahead of the FIA.

Well yeah that's what I meant. No car leaves the factory conforming 100% clearly to the rulebook. There will always be exploits and loopholes.
 
The exploits and loopholes are in the rulebook too - or rather the limits for them are - and the teams play in the unstated areas. Then it's a competition to bitch about what grey areas your competitors are playing in while disguising your own, in a race of legal technicalities to get the rulebook rewritten to their disadvantage rather than yours.

Of course they'll always be there until there's spec racing - and we're not all that far away from it with the current ruleset, with at least the ECU and tyres being control components across the teams.

*There are also rare occasions where teams actually break the rules and do their hardest to stop anyone finding out. I say these are rare, because they probably are - being caught with an actually illegal part damages past results, whereas being found in the grey zone only potentially damages future ones - but they might be far more common than I think.
 
I'm surprised people thinking this is new, it's not. Red Bull have been pulled up in front of the FIA for "grey area" inventions (Engine Mapping, Floor holes...etc, etc, etc) constantly and get away with it.

It's like RB left FOTA because they didn't want to cut the MASSIVE spending they pour in.
 
I'm amazed anyone thinks it's limited to Red Bull. Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Toyota and Renault (as Renault and Benetton) have been pulled up in front of the FIA for "grey area" inventions (movable mass dampers, active suspension, traction control) constantly and get away with it.
 
I'm amazed anyone thinks it's limited to Red Bull. Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Toyota and Renault (as Renault and Benetton) have been pulled up in front of the FIA for "grey area" inventions (movable mass dampers, active suspension, traction control) constantly and get away with it.

I'd say it's because Red Bull happens to be the one that's winning all the time. If it was, let's say, McLaren or Ferrari that happens to be winning all the time, I think these guys would say that they're the ones that are cheating. I don't really watch F1, so I wouldn't know.
 
Only thing I see out of all the races won is, Vettel gets a good start. He pulls out a gap and he is told time and again, "okay, that is enough." Or, "back off" or "Seb, thats enough. Maintain the gap." I dont like Vettel. Only because he doesnt seem like a "Champion" in the sense that Mansel, Senna, Schumacher, Hill, even Kimi and Alonso. Personally to me he comes across as not accessible. He has no style. No class. My opinion.

Anyway, my point is, he's quick but, so are all the other deivers. Vettwl pushes more than is needed while other drivers seem to stay within the boundaries of what they need to do from start to finish. If Vettel was to just be turned loose, how long would his car last compared to his rivals? I sont know the answer but, I cant argue with his trophies.

RB cars are known for their downforce and drive out of corners and mid-corner speed. Its only foul play with the "dont get too close to your teammate or you'll pass him" crap.
 
After reading this entire thread, I love when people pick the team that wins the most or the one that is most consistent to come up with rumors with no proof. Also, if one person says that a team is doing a certain thing, other people will agree with out doing there own research to validate said rumor just because everyone else is doing it. It's ridiculous.
 
I'd say it's because Red Bull happens to be the one that's winning all the time. If it was, let's say, McLaren or Ferrari that happens to be winning all the time, I think these guys would say that they're the ones that are cheating. I don't really watch F1, so I wouldn't know.

No that's not the case, in 2010 McLaren had this issue with their F-duct. Last year we saw issue with the Lotus ride height tricks with the reactive suspension at the beginning of the year that were deemed fine, then the next day called illegal by the FIA. Coanda exhaust were also banned this year but used last year. It's just the cycle the FIA takes to try and have some type of BoP without saying it. I could name others from this year but I don't have time.
 
Oh I also meant to put that Lotus had their FRIC system banned this year while Merc GP didn't due to one being a moveable aero part (mechanically used) while the other wasn't. So it's obvious RBR aren't the only ones to do this stuff. Oh and RBR did have their first type of blown wheel hub banned back in Canada(2012) due to being yet again a moveable aero. I'm sure these well traversed brilliant engineers know this but try it with the hope it will pass.
 
Minardi guy's claim = what a load of:

ipyxIgPCvXT3M.jpg


RBR, a team with a proven record of being the leading edge in technology teamed with the current generations leading driver . . . wins most races. What a surprise!!

And as far as this:

our old school Minardi is not a youtube kind of guy, but I want to hear this difference as well.

Yeah what a shame no-one else got to hear any sounds from the race other than this guy [/sarcasm mode]

Now a Grand Prix is shown on 200 television networks in 200 countries and the number of viewers for a single race has topped 500 million.

That's not counting the people at the track hearing it live. Which you need to remember include all the other teams personnel who would jump at the chance to have an actual claim against RBR.

No-one else heard this engine difference I guess. But, yeah lets believe this guy's report.
 
If he makes to it five consecutive titles, then I would have to say yes.

And drivers like Senna aren't great because they haven't won five let alone five in a row? :odd:

Don't get me wrong Vettel is a good driver, and he knows how to race well when it comes down to the wire (both in a race and in a championship). However, I sometimes wonder-when comparing him to other great drivers past and present-how much of that skill is also contributed by the technological advancements in F1 (especially over the past few years with KERS and DRS). This is also considering the fact that technology in F1 in the past has often been frowned upon (i.e. Ground effect, traction control and movable aerodynamic parts)

In regards to the topic of this thread, Minardi's claims are too premature to accuse RBR of cheating-especially when he used only one race to conduct his findings.
 
Last edited:
And drivers like Senna aren't great because they haven't won five let alone five in a row? :odd:

Don't get me wrong Vettel is a good driver, and he knows how to race well when it comes down to the wire (both in a race and in a championship). However, I sometimes wonder-when comparing him to other great drivers past and present-how much of that skill is also contributed by the technological advancements in F1 (especially over the past few years with KERS and DRS). This is also considering the fact that technology in F1 in the past has often been frowned upon (i.e. Ground effect, traction control and movable aerodynamic parts)

I never said that you can't be a great driver if you win less than five titles. But if Vettel can win next year's title in a similar fashion to how he will inevitably win this year's, then it's hard to see how anyone can stop him. He'll have replicated Schumacher's feat of five consecutive titles, and in, I think, a more impressive fashion. This Red Bull is arguably harder to drive than the Schumacher's Ferraris due to lack of traction control, tires designed to wear out quickly, and a poorer reliability rate. Plus the standard of his competitors is considerably higher than Schumacher's were. In the past three seasons we've had six world champions on the grid, from 2000-2004 there were three, two of which retired after 2001.
 
They're referring to the gap Vettel pulled out on many laps in the race, 1.5 - 2.5 seconds over whoever was in second. What is worth also pointing out though is that it wasn't 2.5 seconds over the entire field, rather just the person in second, mostly Rosberg and Alonso. It also wasn't every lap as some people like to suggest.
Rosberg at time was following similar strategy to Vettel. It was amazing to see Vettel go longer on tyres and average 2 seconds a lap on at the time was potentially second fastest car on track. Rosberg first flying lap on new tyres was slower than Vettel's last lap on his medium tyre stint. The gap was even bigger to the teams behind. Massa was example on about 7 lap newer tyres and on super softs, but was on average about over 2.2 seconds a lap slower. Vettel was not even pushing in his final stint and was still way faster than anyone else, the advantage could have been much larger as he was on new super softs and lower fuel but was averaging the same lap times as his previous stint.

Yeah it was mainly at the start of new stints then it was more like .5 after he peaked off.
It was for most of his stint, he pulled out like 22 seconds on the second fastest car in 10 laps on the same strategy at time. Red Bull were surprised how much of a gap he managed to pull out.


What if...

Vettel might turn out to be the greatest driver we have seen so far in a F1 car?

Maybe he has an edge over other people reading the track lines, finding more time than anyone else? He is seriously talented, and now he has a couple of years F1 racing under his belt, and now we are seeing possibly the greatest driver ever.

Possibly/maybe of course.
I saw side by side video of both Rosberg and Vettel's fastest Q3 lap. Rosberg had benefit of two flying laps and track improved conditions but anyway racing line of Rosberg was much better. What was amazing to see though how much better Red Bull traction was out of corners. Rosberg had the better line, was already on power and did not brake mid-corner but Vettel did and still Vettel managed better exit speed due to managing to go full throttle very quick. Red Bull have found something big since after Hungary break, their supposed weak tracks they were super strong at, and on track they suit, they were dominant with Vettel.
 
I hate watching F1 just because of Red Bull. If anything is ruining the sport its Red Bull..
. for me at least. Its almost like a monopoly of companies. No matter how many regulations you throw at it; it won't fall.
 
Here's an interesting article (from earlier this month) I found while searching google. Can't say the validity of such claims, so take it for what it's worth:

Red Bull Racing using Thermoplastic Floors?
Source: http://www.racedepartment.com/2013/09/red-bull-racing-using-thermoplastic-floors/

The Dutch Formula 1 magazine recently discussed thermoplastic floors being used on the RB9 of Red Bull Racing. For me this raises the question whether or not Red Bull Racing are using an illegal flexible floor.

Thermoplastics are plastics that are tough, but above a certain temperature get weak and then distort. By adding carbon fibre wires to strengthen in the distortion you would be able to integrate programming without anyone touching it.

Philip Palmer, then a student at the TU Delft, conceived in 2006 one way you can do this. Suppose you have an airplane wing with wire heating wires, consisting of pre-programmed memory material. When you send an electric current through that heating wires, the memory material is activated, so you get the wing in a form. Palmer figured this out for an aircraft, but why would you not also apply it in F1?

Meanwhile, at Red Bull. Technical Director Adrian Newey and his friends have fixed years of dubbing how they could apply thermoplastics in their car. Then all of a sudden there is an eureka moment, the realization that you don’t need electricity at all for the deformation of the material because you have the heat of exhaust gases. And the good thing is: there is no human hand, so there are no rules broken. That is the reason that in Germany a part of the floor of the Red Bull was not made of carbon fibre, but made from a thermoplastic material.

Highly accidental that particular floor area gets covered with glowing hot exhaust gases, on its way backwards to the diffuser to seal the sides, aided by aerodynamic winglets and other aids. Those flows must not make too sharp curves, because only then they will continue to stick to the bodywork surface, they will flow laminar and won’t cause air swirls. The warmer the thermoplastic material of the floor area, the weaker it gets and the more the floor bends down. This creates a cavity, which makes smooth curves for the exhaust gases.

There could be a permanent cavity in the cars floor, but that is excluded by the rules and is therefore not an option. The technical regulations state that the car floor on the sides (the step plane) must be exactly 50 millimeter higher than the reference plane in the middle of the car. If the vehicle floor is 48 or 49 millimeter higher than the reference plane, then its lower than allowed. But this clever cavity of Red Bull is only present if there are hot exhaust gases flowing over it, so only when the car is driving. And if a car is driving you can’t measure it. This cavity disappears again when the car is parked at the technical inspection. Actually it is so an illegal flexible floor, which cannot be proofed illegal, because it is not detectable as the car is stopped.

So the FIA have to watch out. On a certain point there will be more cars with a body work that deform when it get’s warm. Maybe this happens already: the riddles around the flexible front wings and car floors are never quite resolved.

I saw side by side video of both Rosberg and Vettel's fastest Q3 lap. Rosberg had benefit of two flying laps and track improved conditions but anyway racing line of Rosberg was much better. What was amazing to see though how much better Red Bull traction was out of corners. Rosberg had the better line, was already on power and did not brake mid-corner but Vettel did and still Vettel managed better exit speed due to managing to go full throttle very quick. Red Bull have found something big since after Hungary break, their supposed weak tracks they were super strong at, and on track they suit, they were dominant with Vettel.

Yea the RB9's traction out of the low speed corners was out of this world at Singapore :drool: The low speed (say from 40-90mph) downforce production at the rear of the car looked to be 2x that of say the Ferrari in my eyes, while looking incredibly planted when coming off the inner curbing abrubtly (which tends to noticeably upset the cars balance).

All I can say is that I can't wait until next years regs...hopefully Red Bull's diffuser blowing advantage will be largely negated (assuming that's where most of their advantage lies) with the new exhaust layout. Personally I feel as though Red Bull may have now found something new with their suspension design that has put them even further ahead now. In a way it wouldn't come as a suprise if Newey has now moved on to developments (like mechanical/suspension design) that might have more relevance for the future regs, while taking the focus off trying to further fine tune the Coanda/side pod shape, etc.
 
Last edited:
Yea the RB9's traction out of the low speed corners was out of this world at Singapore :drool: The low speed (say from 40-90mph) downforce production at the rear of the car looked to be 2x that of say the Ferrari in my eyes, while looking incredibly planted when coming off the inner curbing abrubtly (which tends to noticeably upset the cars balance).

I remember a certain corner where every other car looked squirrely but the RB9 was so planted (very slow left hander not long after the new opened up left hander), not even the slightest twitch.
 
I never said that you can't be a great driver if you win less than five titles. But if Vettel can win next year's title in a similar fashion to how he will inevitably win this year's, then it's hard to see how anyone can stop him. He'll have replicated Schumacher's feat of five consecutive titles, and in, I think, a more impressive fashion.

You're getting a bit ahead of yourself here-how do you know that he will instantly dominate with the new engine next year?

This Red Bull is arguably harder to drive than the Schumacher's Ferraris due to lack of traction control, tires designed to wear out quickly, and a poorer reliability rate.

More or less they're equal. Having to carry only one tank of fuel is also a tactical challenge, but the Red Bull's aerodynamics as well as the KERS and DRS matches the old F1 in terms of speed.

Plus the standard of his competitors is considerably higher than Schumacher's were. In the past three seasons we've had six world champions on the grid, from 2000-2004 there were three, two of which retired after 2001.

No offence but those other 5 world champions-even his teammate-aren't showing their 'standards' well this year (and the same can be said for the 2nd half of the season last year), whether or not it's due to the cars they drive or (less likely) their skill is outmatched.
 
The two articles that were posted by HKS and Outlaw are interesting reads. I wouldn't be at all surprised if RBR were called to have their car investigated and something illegal was found on it, but like always they'll get a slap on the wrist. Lots of teams have run illegal devices over the years and practically got away with it so it's nothing new.
 
I'm amazed anyone thinks it's limited to Red Bull. Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Toyota and Renault (as Renault and Benetton) have been pulled up in front of the FIA for "grey area" inventions (movable mass dampers, active suspension, traction control) constantly and get away with it.

I don't know what happened but you have no right to open a thread with my name and use a thread name like that. I didn't do that. I posted on Singapore thread in it was perfectly on topic since it was about Singapore GP. If you don't like some stuff either delete it or open your own thread and move all the posts there. You shouldn't try to make fun of users creating threads with their account. I wasn't expecting that. What I see here is an overreaction, on a post made by an ex F1 manager Gancarlo Minardi.

Therefore I kindly ask to change thread name or close this one and open a new one, since I didn't open a thread with a name like this.
Thank you.



I have another post:
After the assumption made by Giancarlo Minardi with Red Bull using some sort of traction control, journalists and insiders are trying to give an explanation to the overwhelming superiority shown by Sebastian Vettel in Singapore.

According to several sources, behind the dominance of the German there wouldn't be a hidden traction control but rather the use of mappings that would simulate the behavior of blown diffusers before the ban imposed by the FIA ​​in that area of the cars.
"Rather than a traction control would appear more likely a sort of ad hoc mapping and legal to recreate discharges blown," said the journalist James Allen.
According to Toto Wolff Mercedes will be hard to beat Vettel in the next races: "Under these conditions, Sebastian could win all the remaining races of the season."
source
http://f1grandprix.motorionline.com...he-ricreano-leffetto-degli-scarichi-soffiati/
 
Back