"What’s inside Newey and Vettel’s magic hat?" by Giancarlo Minardi

  • Thread starter HKS racer
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Why are people around the world booing Vettel? Perhaps it is because they intuitively sense that he is cheating?

Perhaps what is being done is technically legal, but Vettel himself is being particularly brazen in bragging about the system currently being perfected, according to the article below.

If true, it's sad. Vettel and Newey are both great figures whose storied careers would be forever tarnished, if it is all shown to be true. Spirit and intent of the rules mean a lot. So does the integrity and honor of the sport. To bring the sport into disrepute is an unforgivable offense. Ask Pete Rose. It would be entirely appropriate to exclude Vettel and Red Bull from the lists, if the accusations are shown to be correct.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns26448.html
Grandprix.com

OCTOBER 3, 2013
Red Bull to further enhance traction system

Red Bull is perfecting a "system" that is mimicking the effects of banned traction control, Germany's Auto Motor und Sport reported on Thursday.

The magazine said the complex electronic mapping system, although entirely legal, is able to put Renault's V8 engine down to just four-cylinders under certain circumstances.

"I am sure for the races to come that we will be able to enhance the system even further -- to profit even more," world champion Sebastian Vettel told F1's official website.

He told reporters: "Other people will never figure out how we've done it."

Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton on Thursday stirred the pot by admitting Vettel's traction in Singapore was not normal.

"The last time I was able to put the pedal down that quick was back in 2007 or 2008, when we had traction control," he said.
 
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Samus
A driver bragging about how good his car is? Well gosh darn it, that's a complete first.
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Bragging about their crimes is how most criminals get caught! If he actually said those things, he is a moron.

He has lost the respect of fans. He is rapidly losing the respect of other drivers by calling them lazy. Grinning like an idiot and sticking his finger up at everyone make him look a fool.
 
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Dotini
Bragging about their crimes is how most criminals get caught! If he actually said those things, he is a moron.

He has lost the respect of fans. He is rapidly losing the respect of other drivers by calling them lazy. Grinning like an idiot and sticking his finger up at everyone make him look a fool.
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Oh and what crime has he committed exactly? Everyone thinks it's legal, unless you know of any complaints from other teams I don't.

Where has he called drivers lazy?
 
Samus
Oh and what crime has he committed exactly? Everyone thinks it's legal, unless you know of any complaints from other teams I don't.

Where has he called drivers lazy?
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What, if any, infractions Vettel and/or Newey may have committed have yet to be determined. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that. The other teams have not (yet) complained, to my knowledge. It would be an admission none of them are as smart as Newey. If they knew what Newey knows, they would be doing it too!

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns26445.html
Grandprix.com

OCTOBER 3, 2013
Rosberg says Vettel risks losing rival drivers respect

Nico Rosberg has admitted he took objection in Singapore when world champion Sebastian Vettel suggested his rivals are lazy.

After dominating the floodlit grand prix, German Vettel explained Red Bull's advantage by insisting that while his team works "very hard", the others are "hanging their balls in the pool very early on Fridays".

It may have been a joke, but Mercedes' Rosberg did not laugh.

"Maybe he shouldn't be thinking about my balls," he is quoted on Thursday by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport.

"It was definitely inappropriate," added Rosberg. "My team works its ass off. And he can't possibly know how much we work compared to them.

"My boys work like crazy."

And as F1 figures puzzle over why Vettel is being booed on post-race podiums, Rosberg said comments like the one made in Singapore do him no favours.

"He is in very clear danger of losing the respect of the other drivers," he said.

McLaren's Jenson Button agrees: "It was a wrong and unfair thing for Sebastian to say."
 
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Dotini
"Maybe he shouldn't be thinking about my balls," he is quoted on Thursday by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport.
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This is why there's no need to make a HaHa Clinton-Dix joke that wouldn't have anything to do with motorsports, anyhow.
 
The Outlaw
Traction control is worth very little at this level, particularly in dry conditions when it comes to raw/1 lap pace.
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This is not GT5. There are are high-frequency grip variations no driver can modulate throttle around, but a software can do this easily.
 
Saidur_Ali
It was for most of his stint, he pulled out like 22 seconds on the second fastest car in 10 laps on the same strategy at time. Red Bull were surprised how much of a gap he managed to pull out.
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So...how we quickly forget that Vettel saved a set of options that helped him even more (hence why it was a close call in quali). Go to F1Fanatic they have a nice excel chart there that shows the disparity in lap times for every lap of the race and you can see the gap between the fast runners. That is where I got mine but 22 seconds in ten laps seems about right especially from the angle I explain which is the first part of a new stint was 2-3 seconds faster an then peaked and went to a norm of say .5-.8 per lap so if the first 5 or 6 laps is 3 faster that is 18 and then .5 would be up to 20 so there is missing 2 seconds there. But unless you can show me the chart you are getting this from that'd help. I'm not saying F1 may have not had an advantage but I was being realistic about the time charts. People are trying to make it as if a full stint was 3 second gap each lap when it wasn't, let's not get asinine on this subject.

dsgerbc
This is not GT5. There are are high-frequency grip variations no driver can modulate throttle around, but a software can do this easily.
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^ this as well.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
So...how we quickly forget that Vettel saved a set of options that helped him even more (hence why it was a close call in quali). Go to F1Fanatic they have a nice excel chart there that shows the disparity in lap times for every lap of the race and you can see the gap between the fast runners. That is where I got mine but 22 seconds in ten laps seems about right especially from the angle I explain which is the first part of a new stint was 2-3 seconds faster an then peaked and went to a norm of say .5-.8 per lap so if the first 5 or 6 laps is 3 faster that is 18 and then .5 would be up to 20 so there is missing 2 seconds there. But unless you can show me the chart you are getting this from that'd help. I'm not saying F1 may have not had an advantage but I was being realistic about the time charts. People are trying to make it as if a full stint was 3 second gap each lap when it wasn't, let's not get asinine on this subject.
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In the video somebody posted above, Hamilton made the point that on the restart or on the first 2-3 laps, everybody is going hell for leather. Nobody is conserving fuel or tyres because track position is much more important when the pack is close together.

At both the start and the restart after the safety car, Vettel was ~2 seconds a lap faster, which is a huge gap in F1 terms (According to F1 Fanatic lap charts). I will add however, that I do not believe Red Bull are cheating. I have seen no evidence to support this theory (Unlike other times e.g. in 2010 where their front wing was clearly moving non-linearly under aerodynamic load).

EDIT: Also, both Vettel and Rosberg started the race on used option tyres. There was no difference in strategy at this point, Rosberg should have been pressuring Vettel for most of the first stint at least.
 
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Lauda gives us another piece of the puzzle!

http://www.österreich.at/nachrichten/Lauda-resigniert-vor-Vettel/117918438
"
ÖSTERREICH: Könnte an den Schummel-Vorwürfen gegen Vettel und Red Bull was dran sein?
Lauda: Nein. allerdings hatte Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen. Das haben sie getan, und dann war offenbar alles in Ordnung."

I repeat:
Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen.

I wonder what would other teams think of THAT, eh?!
 
JGreens
Lauda gives us another piece of the puzzle!

http://www.österreich.at/nachrichten/Lauda-resigniert-vor-Vettel/117918438
"
ÖSTERREICH: Könnte an den Schummel-Vorwürfen gegen Vettel und Red Bull was dran sein?
Lauda: Nein. allerdings hatte Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen. Das haben sie getan, und dann war offenbar alles in Ordnung."

I repeat:
Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen.

I wonder what would other teams think of THAT, eh?!
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Since post on GTP are suppose to be in English, and mods closed a thread the other day of a new user speaking in French (or was it Spanish?), I'd say you translate what was said and post it here. Not frantically and full of excited exclaim as if people are going to understand or use browsers that have functioning translators.

Seismica
In the video somebody posted above, Hamilton made the point that on the restart or on the first 2-3 laps, everybody is going hell for leather. Nobody is conserving fuel or tyres because track position is much more important when the pack is close together.

At both the start and the restart after the safety car, Vettel was ~2 seconds a lap faster, which is a huge gap in F1 terms (According to F1 Fanatic lap charts). I will add however, that I do not believe Red Bull are cheating. I have seen no evidence to support this theory (Unlike other times e.g. in 2010 where their front wing was clearly moving non-linearly under aerodynamic load).

EDIT: Also, both Vettel and Rosberg started the race on used option tyres. There was no difference in strategy at this point, Rosberg should have been pressuring Vettel for most of the first stint at least.
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Well like in the past you've seemed confused by my post. I'm not siding with vettel let's not get it mistaken. What I have issue with is people are making him seem like he was on the fifth dimension during this drive. I'm willing to agree that something was up and as you can see from my post I agreed with another user that technical abilities are there to make traction control. If people think the scrutineers are ultra engineers they are mistaken teams have and will be able to hide abilities until brought to light by real engineers (other teams), then it will be checked with an actual fine tooth comb. However, until evidence comes to light I don't think anyone can say it's really happening. The "evidence" thus far isn't even circumstantial and rather just a claim that is in dire need of support and the ones that automatically accepts (obviously not you Seismica) are only doing so cause they hate and want it to be real so at the end of the day they can justify their hate by saying, "he was nothing but a cheater anyways" like some say about another German.

I agree with Hamilton but, I just don't like that others are making Vettel seem like an alien on both sides. Either by saying "he had an awesome drive, go Vettel". Or "did you see that lead he pulled, it was so MASSIVE he is an obvious cheater". From the first part all I was saying is the time charts I've seen (F1Fanatic) they get to that level of a gap but people act as if the guy was pulling 2-4 seconds each lap of the entire stint and the charts just don't show it.
 
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Yeah, that's really annoying, certain people seem to think that it's now totally uncool to hate on Vettel in the least bit, so they would rather laud Vettel as supreme above all.

Middle ground people :/ discussions are easier that way.
 
FWIW, the NBC telecast late last night/early this morning had some interesting observations / speculation:

* Horner stated that F1 provides the ECU for the car, so they cannot implement any kind of faux-traction control in the ECU. If that's true, then for Red Bull have done anything of the sort, they must have done it in a computer module separate from the ECU.

* The NBC commentator speculation all centered around the aerodynamics of the car. Specifically, that Red Bull have engineered the side pods so as to suck the exhaust gas down to the bottom of the car and onto the diffuser. They suggest that this gives the most downforce benefits at 50 to 60 mph (which were prevalent in the 3rd sector in Singapore) and that it requires a specific driving style, getting on the gas sooner in order to provide exhaust gas to increase rear downforce.
 
JGreens
I repeat:
Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen.
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I'll post google translation:
AUSTRIA: Could the cheating allegations against Vettel and Red Bull be something to it? Lauda: No. However, Red Bull had before the Singapore GP software testing. because the FIA has demanded that they need to change something. They have done, and then everything was apparently fine.
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ZEROX
And the system make RBR faster? Backfired FIA plan to slow down the bull? :P
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More like FIA knew RB were cheating and told them to quietly change it before the other teams knew and raised hell about it. RB goes and makes some minor changes so the FIA can defend them if it's brought up and it's all nicely hushed up, just to be sure.
 
dsgerbc
This is not GT5.
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I never said it was.

In GT5 you never see drivers using traction control to set the very top times, as it's usually detremental to 1 lap pace. So why would I suggest that it's "worth very little when it comes to 1 lap/raw pace" (in GT5)...when it's surely not the case, or the opinion that I hold?

dsgerbc
There are are high-frequency grip variations no driver can modulate throttle around, but a software can do this easily.
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Obviously, but more importantly, it must be asked how does such "on paper" talk translate to real world/on track lap times (over 1 lap). Most everything that I've heard/read in the past has suggested that traction control is worth very little in terms of 1 lap pace (in dry conditions) in Formula 1, but does help to minimize excessive wheel spin/errors throughout longer stints which can end up having a fairly noticeable affect on tire wear and overall pace over a stint.

Here are a couple of quotes just to put a bit of back bone to my statements:

Glock: TC ban won't affect laptimes, Autosport 2008

Asked during a media dinner in Valencia, where ten of the teams started testing on Tuesday, Glock said he expected no dramatic increase in laptimes, especially over a single lap, also admitting drivers would be more prone to making mistakes on longer stints.

"I think the drop will not be much," he told a group of journalists. "I think that for the first race we will be on the same speed again, because we develop the car. It will be different in the race though.

"When you lose the rear tyre, you lose rear stability, so I think we will undoubtedly make mistakes, but for one lap it will not be such a big difference." Timo Glock - 2008

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Traction control will not change much - Schumacher, GPUpdate 2001

"Traction control will help in preventing sudden surges of engine power from causing wheel spin," explained Michael. "This means performance will be slightly more consistent and quicker, but they are very small changes."
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AtlasF1 Austria 2001 technical Preview
"The controversial systems made their Grand Prix return at the last race, in Spain, after being legalised because they could not be policed out of existence. But many teams had such problems getting to grips with the complicated electronics that many actually gave up and turned the systems off. Even McLaren admitted defeat and on his last-gasp qualifying attempt Mika Hakkinen ran without traction control and gained a front row grid spot.

It brought into question the overall usefulness of the systems, but it is clear that in preventing wheelspin their job is more important in race-length tyre wear reduction than reducing sector times on a single flying lap. However, in Barcelona many teams were not running their systems to full specification for fear that the chanced of system failure were so great that it was not worth the risk for the amount it would actually gain." - Will Gray, Atlas F1 Technical editor
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The Outlaw
I never said it was.
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So make a logical conclusion from what you just wrote. TC-like device on RB would let Vettel push much harder in the first few laps at the expense of the same wear as on MGP w/o TC-like function. This does not mean that Rosberg could not have been able to keep up with Vettel, he just could not afford to.
 
It's a possibility in my eyes....but it's just as possible that it may be simply down to superior downforce production at low speeds, related to some trickery with exhaust blowing (which has been their ace for some time now).

It's also worth mentioning that Vettel only did 1 lap in Q3 at Singapore and saved a set of options for the race. I think the results from qualy also made things seem a bit closer than they really were going into the race. Not to forget how often we've seen MGP qualify extremely well, only to see them fall a mile back (literally) from Red Bull, while losing out to other cars at the end of a race which they had happened to comfortably qualify ahead of.

Just those 2 points alone among the other factors to consider in the race at Singapore, deter me from suddenly buying into the idea that Red Bull must be using a traction control system (especially with the relatively poor evidence that has been spewing around IMO).
 
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Meh, it could be downforce, but it would be
a) boring
b) would not explain weird sound RBs were making early on throttle.

The idea of harvesting KERS on throttle seems cooler.
 
dsgerbc
Meh, it could be downforce, but it would be
a) boring

The idea of harvesting KERS on throttle seems cooler.
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Exactly, we and the media need something outside of the spectrum to create a hoopla over :lol: That's what humans do...over complicate anything possible to try and create more satisfaction lol.

dsgerbc
b) would not explain weird sound RBs were making early on throttle.
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This is another point that I don't buy into. Newey's cars have been making strange noises (related to exhaust blowing) for some time now. Simply because some are now suggesting a new/strange noise while on throttle, doesn't dismiss the plausibility that this is just another attempt/development to increase exhaust gases, but rather a traction control conspiracy.
 
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Yes. Because I knew the outcome in advance, I did not bother watching either of the last two Grand Prix. And I have been a devoted fan since 1961.

So hat's off to Newey and his boffins. But it has to end before the sport is ruined. Either the technology, if it is deemed beneficial to motoring and motorsport in general, must be released into the world, or it must be immediately banned for the good of the sport.

The fans around the world are wholly justified in booing the cheating little prick.
 
Dotini
Yes. Because I knew the outcome in advance, I did not bother watching either of the last two Grand Prix. And I have been a devoted fan since 1961.

So hat's off to Newey and his boffins. But it has to end before the sport is ruined. Either the technology, if it is deemed beneficial to motoring and motorsport in general, must be released into the world, or it must be immediately banned for the good of the sport.

The fans around the world are wholly justified in booing the cheating little prick.
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Cheat is a pretty strong word when you have no evidence.
 
Not the most tech-minded person here... but i;ve read about the 4-cylinder thing. In all honesty, finding a loop hole in the rules and exploiting it does not mark you out as a "prick". There is a reason why pretty much every car for the last 20 years in F1 has had Ross Brawn or Adrian Newey at the helm of it - they are the best innovators. Put them in the best team with best driver(s), and you have an almost supreme package.

For instance, did anyone accuse Ferrari and especially Michael Schumacher of cheating in the early 00's?
 
Gary Anderson had a good column about this.

I mean, not that anyone cares. Cheating or traction control is way more interesting, so of course that's the way that the media and internet speculation is going, regardless of actual evidence. Cause, you know, stuff like that isn't important. Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
 
HighSeasHoMastr
Gary Anderson had a good column about this.

I mean, not that anyone cares. Cheating or traction control is way more interesting, so of course that's the way that the media and internet speculation is going, regardless of actual evidence. Cause, you know, stuff like that isn't important. Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
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Thing is fans, or in this case non-fans, will believe what they want to believe. If ten people report that they think it's legal they'll ignore it, if there are a couple of articles that suggest they're cheating that's the one they'll believe. Not much you can do about that.

Even when teams (not just Red Bull) have been cleared of wrongdoing in the past that isn't enough for some fans, they still believe the team were cheating. It's just how it is.
 

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