What do you want the new physiscs to be like?
- Thread starter FiftyBelowZero
- 64 comments
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You have never driven a car in real life, have you? Please stop posting.
- 2,073
- Fezz_ST
- Fezz ST
Also this is the corner I was standing at (not my video)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-W7gi...=/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z-W7giMHj5s
And to give you an idea of the speed of the fastest cars on that corner the Exige S is doing 60 on the entry and 40 mid corner
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-W7gi...=/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z-W7giMHj5s
And to give you an idea of the speed of the fastest cars on that corner the Exige S is doing 60 on the entry and 40 mid corner
- 14,422
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
- 6,318
- West Virginia
- HBR-Roadhog
- HBR Roadhog
Most of the time when people complain about heavy understeer what is really happening is that they are driving into the corner to fast. Only on some NFS and othe arcade type games can you throw a car into a 90 degree corner at high speed and not get heavy understeer or spin out.
- 13,726
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Very much this.
Also, people don't realise just how sensitive FWD cars can be to throttle going into a corner. Lift off too hard and you'll understeer or oversteer or both, depending on the suspension setup. Get on the gas too hard and you'll probably understeer too. It's a very fine line when you're trying to be fast.
If anything, it's harder to be fast in a FWD car than your average FR thingy.
- 1,789
- The Motor City
- HAL20xx
- HAL20xx
So why are they updating the physics model in GT6? Does that mean they're making it more of an arcade racer?
- 270
- Cheshire
- Wormgod_
- RPM Bibblefish
I have thought about it but everyone else seems to have beat me to it.
Please answer my original question on why you believe GT5 has better physics than FM4, i'll get you started:
Tyre model - GT5 or FM4 with reasons why
Suspension model - GT5 or FM4 with reasons why
Aero model - GT5 or FM4 with reasons why
Damage model - GT5 or FM4 with reasons why
Let me guess GT5 just 'feels' better or has that 'magic' or is it just GT5 has more 'soul'
mykem
Premium
- 1,260
Being able to translate all the underlying physics calculation onto the player either via the controller or preferably to the FFB is every bit as important as the physics itself.
But the issue is how the translation feels to the players. I don't think there's one magic answer because simulation exists on the premise of approximation. To provide the best feel according to the developer/test driver etc. That's where real world data- having good test driver even in the case of GT, the lead designer being a proficient race driver- becomes handy. But it still will not guarantee that all end users will obtain similar satisfaction. Primarily because of how we translate our perception into what we gather is reality- semantics at its worst
Even if you've driven the best PC simulations out there: rF2, iRacing, nKP, you can feel despite some pervasive feel to the how cars feel in them- and you can tell that there's a general consensus as to how a good driving sims should feel: the feel of mass both static or inertial as well as shifting weight or g-forces, being able to feel the tire grip especially around corners and some of the mechanical play- springiness in the steering wheel resulting from the tires self-aligning tendency- there still exists a "huge gap" from one sims to the next. Some minor differences gotten lost in translation. Hence, the argument of which if these is real or realistic still pushes all the hot buttons even amongst the best.
Which makes this argument of Forza vs GT- if one feels right the other must be wrong- pretty redundant and ridiculous. I was just as guilty in the past but I guess once you've grown older you start realising that there's seldom if ever one true answer.
I'd be surprise if FM5 physics doesn't improve. The hardware dictates such improvement. GT6 will probably be a preview of the series true potential when the PS4 version comes to fruition. If there's one thing I find perplexing is that the Xbox One will probably still push the XiD protocol for its controller. That more than anything would be the limiting factor.
- 13,726
- Adelaide
- Neomone
With an FFB wheel, I totally agree with you. Good FFB can make or break how a sim is perceived. Good FFB can mask problems with physics, and bad FFB can make even the world's best sim feel like Gran Turismo 1.
With a controller, however, it's a furphy. The only feedback the controller gives is rumble. There is no really meaningful feedback being given from a controller. The only meaningful feedback is coming from the images, and the squishy bit between the players ears. With controllers, I suspect a lot of it is imagination.
- 3,589
- Netherlands
- skazz-race
- skazzracer
There are also 2 schools of thought about FFB:
1. Purely simulate the forces on the steering column.
2. Simulate steering column forces, but mix in some "seat of pants" forces which are otherwise absent (unless you have a motion platform)
Forza 3/4 is clearly a type 1 approach, and deliberately doesn't simulate the feel of the car bouncing over bumps unless that force would be felt in the steering column. GT5 clearly adds in some road feel, which for me adds to the immersion factor despite not being as "pure". PC Sims are also roughly half/half (Simbin always mixes in some road feel, rFactor doesn't, iRacing does, Nkp doesn't, etc....)
Another big difference between Forza 3/4 and GT5 is simulation of damping and power steering. To me, Forza games always feel like you are driving a modern sports car with fast and light electric steering (although FF cars clearly feel heavier which I like). GT5, on the other hand, throws in much more wheel weight and stronger centering force.
Of course there is no "right" answer, but such differences in approach mask many of the nuances of FFB in each game, at least while you adjust to them.
1. Purely simulate the forces on the steering column.
2. Simulate steering column forces, but mix in some "seat of pants" forces which are otherwise absent (unless you have a motion platform)
Forza 3/4 is clearly a type 1 approach, and deliberately doesn't simulate the feel of the car bouncing over bumps unless that force would be felt in the steering column. GT5 clearly adds in some road feel, which for me adds to the immersion factor despite not being as "pure". PC Sims are also roughly half/half (Simbin always mixes in some road feel, rFactor doesn't, iRacing does, Nkp doesn't, etc....)
Another big difference between Forza 3/4 and GT5 is simulation of damping and power steering. To me, Forza games always feel like you are driving a modern sports car with fast and light electric steering (although FF cars clearly feel heavier which I like). GT5, on the other hand, throws in much more wheel weight and stronger centering force.
Of course there is no "right" answer, but such differences in approach mask many of the nuances of FFB in each game, at least while you adjust to them.
CAMAROBOY69
Premium
- 18,567
- Michigan
- CAMAROBOY69
I think the physics in Forza 4 are dang near perfect. The only physics that need to be tweaked are the drag racing physics. Other than that, F4 is as good as it gets for physics on a console. IMO.
- 888
- Mill Creek, WA
- HighSeasHoMastr
- HighSeasHoMastr
Rollover physics are aweful in FM4
Hit a 3 inch tall curb at 70MPH in a 911 RSR- roll 5 times. Seems legit.
There's room for improvement in other areas too (looking at you, aero model) so I would be hugely disappointed if its just FM4 physics again 👎
FM4 is the best there is on console right now, but it's hardly the best it could be.
I completely disagree, although I agree that FM4 is almost as good as it gets on a console. Certainly the best thing around in the past couple years.
I'd like to see them work on oversteer and low-speed physics; there's plenty of work to be done with steering, suspension modelling, and more. With "simulation" steering on a controller you can whip cars around like feather dusters. I don't care if I'm actually steering faster than anyone could with a wheel, the physics engine should not allow that. It should spin me out of control after a handful of swings. It's broken movement, with implications on every other maneuver in the game; it just isn't quite so apparent all the time.
When I play Forza, it still feels like a game instead of a sim. T10 has come really close...they just need to take things to the next level.
- 13,726
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Rollover physics are aweful in FM4
Hit a 3 inch tall curb at 70MPH in a 911 RSR- roll 5 times. Seems legit.
I agree. The biggest thing for me about FM physics is the way they handle curbs in general. You either have very, very low grip or they launch you.
I'm not sure whether this is a suspension thing or a tyre load thing. Probably a bit of both. I've been meaning to sit down for a while and see if the effect can be tuned out, which would sort of narrow down the cause. But it's too much fun racing and I never seem to find the time.
- 169
- 14,422
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
I think you mean that you agree lol. Read what he quoted, he agrees with curbs causing ridiculous roll overs.
- 2,038
- TX
- whitemanLS1
I think everyone needs to reread, ReverenceSatans is saying it's very possible for a large steep curb/corner bump to flip a car at the correct angle if not corrected properly by the driver. Like the large bumps at Le Mans at Tertre Rouge or the huge curbs on the Nordschleife at Bergwerk. Are those curbs and bumps to actual real life specs, I have no clue.
Those are the only two places i flipped a car in FM4 and i was coming in way to fast both occasions.
- 888
- Mill Creek, WA
- HighSeasHoMastr
- HighSeasHoMastr
So a 911 race car (or honestly a 911 in general) has a high CoG? Yeahuh.
But honestly, it really doesn't seem to matter. Most cars in FM4 will roll if they get two wheels more than a couple inches off the ground, and it's crap. I love how you can watch the rollovers happening in real time, and it's like slow motion: the car will get air under one side, and when you expect it to slam back down to the ground, it just keeps going up and up and up and over!
I agree that some curbs in some cars at some speeds should be able to cause rollovers. What's ridiculous is that most curbs in most cars at most speeds will roll you. See: Maple Valley, Sunset Infield, Infineon, Nurburgring, Le Mans, Rally di Positano. I have rolled cars at all those tracks.
Now, the 'Ring, sure, but hardly every curb there is realistically capable of rolling a car, and the one I roll off of the most is in the first chicane at the end of the front straight, and that curb is almost flat!
Bottom line: Curbs in FM4 are waaaaay to flip-happy.
- 3,200
- Murcie LP710
This has been my major gripe with many racing games. You choose which shifting option you want to shift with and it applies to ALL vehicles regardless of transmission options or settings.
This is what I want to see from developers, not just T10. Optional extras, different transmission options for different vehicles and that should be how you have to drive them, or even transmission conversions.
- 13,726
- Adelaide
- Neomone
The thing is...in RL, any car with a high CoG probably has softer suspension and more suspension travel. So the cars most susceptible to rolling from hitting a big bump are also best set up to deal with it.
I'm not saying that it's impossible in reality, just that the way FM4 deals with the situation is overblown. They're at 11, and I need them at about a 3, if I might paraphrase. You'd need to hit a really big curb really hard and just the right angle to have any chance of even getting up on two wheels.
When you think that it needs enough force to lift at least half the car's weight (probably 500kg or more) a metre or more into the air, you start to realise just how difficult it would actually be.
I'm not saying that it's impossible in reality, just that the way FM4 deals with the situation is overblown. They're at 11, and I need them at about a 3, if I might paraphrase. You'd need to hit a really big curb really hard and just the right angle to have any chance of even getting up on two wheels.
When you think that it needs enough force to lift at least half the car's weight (probably 500kg or more) a metre or more into the air, you start to realise just how difficult it would actually be.
- 454
- Australia
I started to write all these things that needed improvement regarding physics......then it dawned on me that the easy solution would be to just make the physics exactly like LFS! Job done!.....And maybe add some of GT4s high speed twitchiness..... and a smidgen of Enthusia's suspension control (when hitting curbs).....and....and....and.....going by fm4 , fm5 should turn out alright
Proper mapping of Automatic transmission converter slip and turbo surge/lag would also be cool
Proper mapping of Automatic transmission converter slip and turbo surge/lag would also be cool
- 4,329
Real-life driving physics. There, simple enough.
On manual with clutch: why are standard controller users even using this option?
On manual with clutch: why are standard controller users even using this option?
