What exactly counts as "Dive Bombing"

[Outspacer]

When he starts braking, it is clear that he is committed to the dive bomb and running wide end of turn 1 proves this. Just look at his entry into turn 2. More than a bit wide and definitely understeering.

What I would have preferred to see is, when he starts braking, he does so being aware that drivers ahead MAY take a sharp inside line to shut the door. Or their may be an incident to avoid. Or perhaps another opportunity for a pass. The point is, one can't credibly assert making a move so far back because there is simply too many scenarios to contend with. Thus the only sportsmanship move here is to be bit more careful under braking and give yourself (fellow drivers) some room to maneuver away from contact. Allow the corner to develop a bit more before committing to a move.

I applaud the drivers that saw this coming.

A sharp inside line?! He was certainly alongside the AMG well before interrupting any line the AMG might've reasonably taken from his position. The AMG had committed to a wide entry, leaving the door wide open.

Just unfortunate for Mr AMG that there was also a huge gap to the car in front, making this move possible (and clean rather than a divebomb). Essentially the whole situation was of his making, slowing early for the corner and bunching 3 cars within 1 sec behind him. Had the OP stayed in line it's unlikely they would've all gone through without some contact, even if just little bumps, and more likely that someone from further back would've divebombed the train (P8 was gaining and clearly thinking about it, but sensibly backed out just before the OP went for it).

There was no contact, and no loss of control. A bit of understeer after the apex is no big deal - there had been nobody alongside the OP since before the apex, so no harm was caused by running a little wider on exit, and it's a perfectly fair line anyway. We're talking about maybe a car's width off a more ideal line, good enough to still be catching those in front, make T2 apex tidily... and take another place.

Hell of a lot of differences here compared to some of the chancers I've seen at T1.

And totally different to the video you just posted - the OP got past before the apex.

 

[Shottah072]

A crucial part of the video is when they both brake at the same time. The guys in front of OP braked way early.

 

[dabz343]

A sharp inside line?! He was certainly alongside the AMG well before interrupting any line the AMG might've reasonably taken from his position. The AMG had committed to a wide entry, leaving the door wide open.

Just unfortunate for Mr AMG that there was also a huge gap to the car in front, making this move possible (and clean rather than a divebomb). Essentially the whole situation was of his making, slowing early for the corner and bunching 3 cars within 1 sec behind him. Had the OP stayed in line it's unlikely they would've all gone through without some contact, even if just little bumps, and more likely that someone from further back would've divebombed the train (P8 was gaining and clearly thinking about it, but sensibly backed out just before the OP went for it).

There was no contact, and no loss of control. A bit of understeer after the apex is no big deal - there had been nobody alongside the OP since before the apex, so no harm was caused by running a little wider on exit, and it's a perfectly fair line anyway. We're talking about maybe a car's width off a more ideal line, good enough to still be catching those in front, make T2 apex tidily... and take another place.

Hell of a lot of differences here compared to some of the chancers I've seen at T1.

And totally different to the video you just posted - the OP got past before the apex.

I have a clear understanding of lunging and why it is frowned upon.

A crucial part of the video is when they both brake at the same time. The guys in front of OP braked way early.

The vid was shared with the intention to demonstrate the principles of why lunging creates havoc.

 

[KingFrog]

So Daniel Ricciardo is bad ?

I think some are a bit to touchy when it comes to divebombing. Sure its not the nicest way to overtake but it has and always will be part of racing. As long as they beat you to the apex, there is no contact and they dont overshoot the corner like OP there is no problem.

If you hit the apex then you did not dive bomb. Dive bombing is hitting the breaks as late as possible in order to make the turn without going off track . Hitting the brakes as late as possible to hit the apex , if failed , will result in going wide , not off track . This can cause a collision , but is pretty valid . Dive bombing Will never gain you time , I mean it can give you the satisfaction of overtaking a person for a second before they overtake you due to having a superior exit speed .

 

[Outspacer]

I have a clear understanding of lunging and why it is frowned upon.

The vid was shared with the intention to demonstrate the principles of why lunging creates havoc.

TBH, you seem a very hazy on it if you think lunging (per the D61 video) includes the overtake the OP did.

Driver61 again. He's talking about overtaking opportunities that can arise at the start of a race. "Drive into the space". Mostly though from 11 mins onwards - his student's overly cautious braking results in others overtaking him, he doesn't call these out as lunges, clearly sees it as that's what happens when braking too early.



I guess the "how to overtake" video will be next in the series?

 

[Shottah072]

If you hit the apex then you did not dive bomb. Dive bombing is hitting the breaks as late as possible in order to make the turn without going off track . Hitting the brakes as late as possible to hit the apex , if failed , will result in going wide , not off track . This can cause a collision , but is pretty valid . Dive bombing Will never gain you time , I mean it can give you the satisfaction of overtaking a person for a second before they overtake you due to having a superior exit speed .

I think the definition of what a divebomb is divers depending on who you ask. Some will see any move from far away as a divebomb. I think yours is correct and i agree with it.

I personaly call both instances a divebomb. Only one a succesfull divebomb and the other a bad divebomb. Not sure if thats correct or even makes sense though

The vid was shared with the intention to demonstrate the principles of why lunging creates havoc.

Its a good video. And i agree most of the time it will cause havoc and is not the right way to do it. But there's a time and place for everything, even for some very aggresive moves. But you need to know and be able to reckongise when these moments happen. Only lunge when a chance to do it succesfull appears and dont make it the only move in your arsenal but keep it for those rare moments. Knowing when to be aggresive and when not is a valuable skill. And in this case it became one of those moment when the bunched up guys in front braked way early and there was plenty of room on the inside. If they were at racing speed and braked normal this would not have been one of these moments.

 

[Outspacer]

I think the definition of what a divebomb is divers depending on who you ask. Some will see any move from far away as a divebomb. I think yours is correct and i agree with it.

I personaly call both instances a divebomb. Only one a succesfull divebomb and the other a bad divebomb. Not sure if thats correct or even makes sense though

For me, a key distinction between a dive and a divebomb is that a divebomber doesn't care about what contact or havoc ensues, and is generally prepared to use contact for advantage, use other cars as brakes or to help make the turn, etc. A dive is merely an attempt to overtake by outbraking on the inside line.

 

[Shottah072]

For me, a key distinction between a dive and a divebomb is that a divebomber doesn't care about what contact or havoc ensues, and is generally prepared to use contact for advantage. A dive is merely an attempt to overtake by outbraking on the inside line.

A dive or a divebomb. Yes thats probably a better definition then mine.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Defining a divebomb as a move that’s done from “too far back” doesn’t make any sense as how far back “too far” is is completely arbitrary. Much easier and more logical to define it as a move that forces the defending driver to abandon their line in order to avoid contact. Whether that’s because they turn in and then the overtaking driver comes alongside or if the overtaking driver runs wide and misses the apex.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Honestly, I had to double-check that you were talking about the same video

Dived for a clear gap - check. Maintained control - check. Bomb - nope. Wrecking ball - nope. Running wide - hardly, still a smooth line to (and around) T2.

I'm all for gentlemanly and respectful racing, but let's not take that to such an extreme that we're not really racing any more. That there was simply an opportunity taken. Never mind P5 being upset, I bet P6 was more upset, having missed the opportunity!

It's risky for the first corner though, and you bet next time those cars in front won't stay in line and go side by side to close the gap, which usually leads to a mess in T1.

 

[war_ops_84]

Maybe this is just me being sleep deprived, but I'll let the clip do the initial bit of talking(this is me of course):



When this happened, my initial thought was, "Did I just get away a dive bomb!?" and for the past week now I've been passing it off as such...until maybe a few minutes ago. After looking back at the clip I noticed that the moment I engaged the brakes was slightly before my usual brake point which led me to think, "was that move just a normal pass or was it really a dive bomb?" Now I understand blatant lunges from a mile away, but in this instance would that move I made really count as dive bombing? Also in instances like this what do you think counts as dive bombing?

That's about as close as you can get to dive bombing without it actually being a dive bomb.

 

[SkyArkz23]

so many responses...

It's risky for the first corner though, and you bet next time those cars in front won't stay in line and go side by side to close the gap, which usually leads to a mess in T1.

Not sure if someone would want to risk that. the AMG was well aware someone (more then likely the one behind him) was going to make a move on the inside and decided to play it safe.

 

[Outspacer]

It's risky for the first corner though, and you bet next time those cars in front won't stay in line and go side by side to close the gap, which usually leads to a mess in T1.

First corner is risky, whatever you do. Let's say P6 had moved right, threatening to pass P5 - then the OP wouldn't have had clear space to move into, and would've been better off staying further left (i.e. not in line with P6) - since that's where the space would be. Of course you can only all get round T1 if everyone is thinking about finding space.

 

[flamingchariot]

I tend to "glance" at corners well before the usual brake point if I'm coming up a straight fast behind two other cars for example ...(at least a few corners before I'm in a position to overtake safely) you generally get an idea if you can pass or not by the spacing as they go round a bend a prime example is Maggiore where you trail brake on the long straight and slingshot round the corner , dive bombing tends to happen when people are impatient or trying go at race pace or better in traffic. Cutting people up always ends in tears...

 

[shaunus]

So Daniel Ricciardo is bad ?

I think some are a bit to touchy when it comes to divebombing. Sure its not the nicest way to overtake but it has and always will be part of racing. As long as they beat you to the apex, there is no contact and they dont overshoot the corner like OP there is no problem.

Daniel is a shocker for Dive-bombing, but he has the talent to mostly pull it off. Not always though, every now and then it all turns to custard!

Dive-bombing is to me a pass that happens almost entirely in the braking zone, and leaves the other driver no choice but to stay out of the way or hit you.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not sure if others would agree, but I generally consider a divebomb a move where you're not alongside before the turn in point and/or a move where you have to cut across the other persons line, i.e. you can't slow down for the apex and run wide. Both of those scenarios have the same consequence that the defending driver has to turn out of the corner to avoid contact, which is why a divebomb is considered a dirty overtake.

In your example however you were alongside (just) before the turn in point and you made the apex fine and didn't run wide so I see no issue with it. It doesn't matter how far back you are as long as you're alongside before they have to commit to the corner and you can slow down for the corner it's fine.

This pretty much. I think the whole, "it worked out so it's not a divebomb" is misplaced logic and short sighted. Sim racing is not real (life) racing and you can't just copy/paste general expectations of behaviour from one to the other. This is the definition from the GTP OLR and it works well for online racing because the only thing a leading driver has to do is glance at his radar or mirrors to see if anyone is along side at the turn in point, and, if they are not, he's clear to take his own racing line through the corner unhindered. This is a clear guideline that creates a clear set of expectations that allows everyone to proceed at an orderly pace and without having to constantly watch your radar throughout the corner to make sure no one is making a move on you beyond the turn in point. The exception would be of course, a major error leading to you moving off the racing line and creating a gap for someone to attack. Braking too late and/or worn tires leading you to drift a couple of car widths from the inside curb for example.

In this case he was alongside at the turn in point so he's entitled to his side of the track and the other driver must leave room. The pass is made and everyone is off to the next corner. If it hadn't worked out, and he punted the outside driver off the track, even though he had overlap at the turn in point, it still wouldn't be a divebomb but I'm sure many of you would have said it was based on your answers. That's the problem when you don't have a clear definition, you tend to set rules based on outcomes rather than clearly defined expectations of behaviour.

 

[dabz343]

Defining a divebomb as a move that’s done from “too far back” doesn’t make any sense as how far back “too far” is is completely arbitrary. Much easier and more logical to define it as a move that forces the defending driver to abandon their line in order to avoid contact. Whether that’s because they turn in and then the overtaking driver comes alongside or if the overtaking driver runs wide and misses the apex.

When you commit to an inside outbraking maneuver in turn 1, that far back, on that course, you can't be certain where the drivers ahead will be. This combined with his inability to safely maintain an inside line through turn 1 are the reasons I call it a divebomb. Observe how he arrives at the apex, how his car understeers through the turn. He wasn't opening up to set up turn 2, he was hanging on. This should never be rewarded.

I don't believe he was completely aware of the situation and didn't give the other drivers the respect they deserve. Thus he lunged, hoping there would be space for him near the apex. Lucky there was room. Thanks to those that saw him coming. Irresistible, I know, to see that much room ahead, especially at the start of the race. But, one has to consider that in those kinds of situations, one must error on the side of caution if respectability is important.

 

[.star.]

I'd say not at all. You were aggressive but made no contact and other drivers gave plenty of room.

 

[dabz343]

TBH, you seem a very hazy on it if you think lunging (per the D61 video) includes the overtake the OP did.

Driver61 again. He's talking about overtaking opportunities that can arise at the start of a race. "Drive into the space". Mostly though from 11 mins onwards - his student's overly cautious braking results in others overtaking him, he doesn't call these out as lunges, clearly sees it as that's what happens when braking too early.



I guess the "how to overtake" video will be next in the series?

Where do I begin?

 

[Johnnypenso]

When you commit to an inside outbraking maneuver in turn 1, that far back, on that course, you can't be certain where the drivers ahead will be. This combined with his inability to safely maintain an inside line through turn 1 are the reasons I call it a divebomb. Observe how he arrives at the apex, how his car understeers through the turn. He wasn't opening up to set up turn 2, he was hanging on. This should never be rewarded.

I don't believe he was completely aware of the situation and didn't give the other drivers the respect they deserve. Thus he lunged, hoping there would be space for him near the apex. Lucky there was room. Thanks to those that saw him coming. Irresistible, I know, to see that much room ahead, especially at the start of the race. But, one has to consider that in those kinds of situations, one must error on the side of caution if respectability is important.

I'd say distance back is completely irrelevant. All that matters is where the two cars are at the turn in point. If there is significant overlap, both are entitled to their side of the track. If not, the lead driver gets to choose his own line through the corner and the other must not hinder them or make contact in any way. It's a general rule that works for every corner on every track in every game and allows behind drivers to take advantage of those ahead that brake too early and make mistakes, but also the safety of the ahead driver to know that once a certain point is passed, they no longer have to watch their mirrors or the radar and can negotiate the corner with full awareness. Too far back, lunging, divebombing etc. are all meaningless phrases until concrete and specific definitions are applied that work in all situations.

 

[Spurgy 777]

When you commit to an inside outbraking maneuver in turn 1, that far back, on that course, you can't be certain where the drivers ahead will be.

Of course you can, people drive for the most part very predictably so there is no reason a move like his can't be accurately judged, hell even the huge number of idiot drivers on the roads are surprisingly predictable even when they're doing stupid things.

This combined with his inability to safely maintain an inside line through turn 1 are the reasons I call it a divebomb. Observe how he arrives at the apex, how his car understeers through the turn. He wasn't opening up to set up turn 2, he was hanging on. This should never be rewarded.

Seemed perfectly fine to me, the car was easily slowed down for T2 and he didn't run wide. Had a defending driver taken an outside line (obviously assuming the OP had got alongside them before the turn in point) then they would of had room to stay on the outside line and take the inside for T2.

I don't believe he was completely aware of the situation and didn't give the other drivers the respect they deserve. Thus he lunged, hoping there would be space for him near the apex. Lucky there was room. Thanks to those that saw him coming. Irresistible, I know, to see that much room ahead, especially at the start of the race. But, one has to consider that in those kinds of situations, one must error on the side of caution if respectability is important.

This is a different issue entirely. No one should go for any overtake when they're not completely aware of the situation and relying on luck to avoid contact, so had he just lunged and hoped for the best I would agree that that is a bad move. However I've not seen anything to suggest that was the case and that he didn't judge the move, maybe @SkyArkz23 can clarify.

Regardless though, the ability, or lack there of to judge an overtake accurately is completely irrelevant to defining whether a move is or isn't a divebomb as even the simplest of overtakes can be messed up by lack of awareness. You seem to be confusing whether or not this move was a divebomb with whether or not this move was... I'm not sure if clean is the right word as it was clean, but good race craft? If it's the case that this lunge was based on hope then I would agree with you that it wasn't a great move with regards to race craft, but as far as divebombing is concerned it doesn't meet any of the conditions for the most logical definition of a divebomb as far as I can tell.

 

[Outspacer]

Where do I begin?

Well let's change tack a little because it's clear we don't agree on the OP's overtake.

What does a 'respectful' overtake up the inside into a corner look like, from your point of view? Can you define it?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

First corner is risky, whatever you do. Let's say P6 had moved right, threatening to pass P5 - then the OP wouldn't have had clear space to move into, and would've been better off staying further left (i.e. not in line with P6) - since that's where the space would be. Of course you can only all get round T1 if everyone is thinking about finding space.

It's a bit like the prisoner's dilemma. P1 works if everyone plays it safe. Yet if someone takes the opportunity things can easily go wrong. It went fine here as the other cars were paying attention to what happened behind, yet I've seen dozens of occasions where it became a mess. You brake a bit earlier for T1 and you have options. You commit to brake late and your fate is in the hands of the other cars with a whole field coming down on any possible accident.

Anyway usually cars are 2 wide going into that corner, kinda amazed they weren't there

 

[Outspacer]

It's a bit like the prisoner's dilemma. P1 works if everyone plays it safe. Yet if someone takes the opportunity things can easily go wrong. It went fine here as the other cars were paying attention to what happened behind, yet I've seen dozens of occasions where it became a mess. You brake a bit earlier for T1 and you have options. You commit to brake late and your fate is in the hands of the other cars with a whole field coming down on any possible accident.

Anyway usually cars are 2 wide going into that corner, kinda amazed they weren't there

Well that is key, typically it's a mess there at T1 for multiple reasons, but in this case it was pretty orderly. Any less committed and it could well have ended up with the AMG alongside round the apex and towards T2, which probably wouldn't have helped either of them, and easily turned it into the more typical mess. So, truisms that typically apply, don't always apply

 

[SkyArkz23]

This is a different issue entirely. No one should go for any overtake when they're not completely aware of the situation and relying on luck to avoid contact, so had he just lunged and hoped for the best I would agree that that is a bad move. However I've not seen anything to suggest that was the case and that he didn't judge the move, maybe @SkyArkz23 can clarify.

I did indeed judge the move. I took advantage of the fact that the BMW showed no intent on passing and the AMG was too cautious. not to mention by the time I hit the apex there was already a less than 0.104 second gap between us.

edit: also it seems the BMW wound up running wide anyways

 

[manion]

Had someone dive bomb me last night in an fia race on nurburgring at turn 3 gave him room and held the inside into next corner we were side by side and he just turned into me. Luckily he only hurt his own race and I ended up beating him by a couple of seconds.

 

[Bruunz]

@SkyArkz23 I'm going to ask a few questions that you can answer (you don't have to provide your answers) then form an opinion if it was dive bomb or not;

Did you have any control of the car to alter your line once the move was initiated?
Did you know that there would be room for you at the apex when you initiated the move?
If you were 2 or 3 positions ahead, would you have expectation that someone 2 or 3 places behind would be there?

Was it a great move? Yes, it was beautiful and clean (and probably very lucky).
I think whether or not the it was a dive bomb lies in the mentality of the move taken.

Were you a dumb bomb rolled out the back of a plane and along for the ride or were you a guided missile with the ability to update your trajectory?

Edit - Typos

 

[dabz343]

Seemed perfectly fine to me, the car was easily slowed down for T2 and he didn't run wide. Had a defending driver taken an outside line (obviously assuming the OP had got alongside them before the turn in point) then they would of had room to stay on the outside line and take the inside for T2.

I believe he has trouble making turn 1. He sides past the apex under full brake. This is one of the main reasons why his move is a divebomb.


This is a different issue entirely. No one should go for any overtake when they're not completely aware of the situation and relying on luck to avoid contact, so had he just lunged and hoped for the best I would agree that that is a bad move. However I've not seen anything to suggest that was the case and that he didn't judge the move, maybe @SkyArkz23 can clarify.

My point is, it's very difficult to judge what's going to happen in front when you have 2-3 cars ahead of you , especially that turn. He can decide all he wants ahead of time, that doesn't make it a legit move. If for some reason the M6 in P3 were to also brake early, for multiple reasons, the OP had no chance to alter his line because he was struggling to slow down for turn 1. I assume this is why the OP initiated this post. He had second thoughts and I applaud him for taking a second look.

Regardless though, the ability, or lack there of to judge an overtake accurately is completely irrelevant to defining whether a move is or isn't a divebomb as even the simplest of overtakes can be messed up by lack of awareness. You seem to be confusing whether or not this move was a divebomb with whether or not this move was... I'm not sure if clean is the right word as it was clean, but good race craft? If it's the case that this lunge was based on hope then I would agree with you that it wasn't a great move with regards to race craft, but as far as divebombing is concerned it doesn't meet any of the conditions for the most logical definition of a divebomb as far as I can tell.[/QUOTE]

Anyone that takes an aggressive inside line to out brake the car(s) ahead has really one important criteria to determine whether it is a dive, lunge - does he arrive at the apex with some reasonable sense of car control. If he is understeering under heavy braking, I'm afraid that is not good racecraft.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

My opinion is if you can hit the apex super tightly then you're fine by me. All these -how far alongside the defending car you car is- rules are a bit too much for what is just a game. If the car in front turns into you...maybe it's your fault, maybe it's their fault. The reality is, given your speed it's going to be the most insignificant of collisions in the grand scheme of things. No one's race is ruined and be more cautious the next time.

 

[dabz343]

I'd say distance back is completely irrelevant. All that matters is where the two cars are at the turn in point. If there is significant overlap, both are entitled to their side of the track. If not, the lead driver gets to choose his own line through the corner and the other must not hinder them or make contact in any way. It's a general rule that works for every corner on every track in every game and allows behind drivers to take advantage of those ahead that brake too early and make mistakes, but also the safety of the ahead driver to know that once a certain point is passed, they no longer have to watch their mirrors or the radar and can negotiate the corner with full awareness. Too far back, lunging, divebombing etc. are all meaningless phrases until concrete and specific definitions are applied that work in all situations.

Respect every driver around you by maintaining car control.