What exactly counts as "Dive Bombing"

[Spurgy 777]

Great start ! Cleared them both before the apex, no contact and no running wide so the move was fine. Not all divebombs are bad imo. As long as you make it stick without overshooting and there is no contact all is fine. They are risky though and need the other driver to have some skill as well. It's not my prefered way to overtake someone and i only do it if i know i can trust them and brake later or if they are running close behind someone so they need to brake a little early and i can box them in.

Here is someone pulling one on me. This one was a bit to risky for my liking and required me to do some avoiding but he made it stick and there was no contact so it was legit.

You were lucky to survive that.

 

[John Crellin]

I'm referring to the people who are driving behind you, a car length or two back - you are taking a typical driving line and they are following.
You hit your brake point, not early - and they see the inside open, brake later than normal and take an inside line.

My point is that your brake point will change as the race conditions change. If im not on the same line as you (so a braking zone collision is no risk) then i dont have to respect your brake point. I only have to respect your turning. if we have different tire conditions or are slowed by a player in front of you then i can (and should) out brake you from a substantial distance away.

You have to swerve to avoid contact, and then hope to regain with a cutback, but depending on how far back they started from a cutback is impossible because you'd have to wait too long, or you try and run the corner wide with room for them to come inside and they push you wide as they were coming in too fast.

well we agree that this is an example of divebombing. But this does not describe the OP situation

 

[EERIEISSSS]

Some people are so critical of how others drive around them, but not critical of there own driving. I'd love to see him race himself, every pass would be "dirty" to the person being passed, but "clean" do the guy doing the passing.

Ahh, the good SR history checker on Kudos proves it's worth yet again and would suggest we're not all angels ay bud

 

[Shottah072]

You were lucky to survive that.

I already got warning points today. So all i will say is i kept a close eye on him in this race.

 

[Sean Renon]

Ahh, the good SR history checker on Kudos proves it's worth yet again and would suggest we're not all angels ay bud

I just found it funny that you complained 2 drivers stuck it up the inside on you, then what you did was considerably more "sticking it up the inside".

My point is that your brake point will change as the race conditions change. If im not on the same line as you (so a braking zone collision is no risk) then i dont have to respect your brake point. I only have to respect your turning. if we have different tire conditions or are slowed by a player in front of you then i can (and should) out brake you from a substantial distance away.

well we agree that this is an example of divebombing. But this does not describe the OP situation

I totally agree with you, I think we're on the same page - my comment about not wanting to close the door was specifically aimed at at the drivers who lunge inside and cause accidents.

If we're driving together, and you outbrake me, come alongside me - I will give you space on the inside. However, if you are going too fast and push me out wide, or use my car as a barrier etc I will consider that a dive.

Basically the difference is a good underbraking maneuver is totally under control - a dive bomb is not.

 

[cleanLX]

Basically the difference is a good underbraking maneuver is totally under control - a dive bomb is not.

I understand what you are getting at, but, to be clear, a dive bomb can be under total control, look at the vid @Shottah072 posted earlier (post #19)...
That was under control, hit the apex... still were it not for Shottah's defensive reaction, it would have been a mess.
That person either a., relied on Shottah to be aware and took advantage, or b., didn't care, knowing that the penalty system is flawed and would result in Shottah receiving the judgement...
So, either way, a controlled jackolantern move.

 

[demeaning pie]

I understand what you are getting at, but, to be clear, a dive bomb can be under total control, look at the vid @Shottah072 posted earlier (post #19)...
That was under control, hit the apex... still were it not for Shottah's defensive reaction, it would have been a mess.
That person either a., relied on Shottah to be aware and took advantage, or b., didn't care, knowing that the penalty system is flawed and would result in Shottah receiving the judgement...
So, either way, a controlled jackolantern move.

A block pass can turn into a mess if the driver being passed decides they are going to turn in like the passer isn't there.

A dive bomb is braking so late that there is no way the line is going to hold without the interference of another car. Out-braking someone to the apex does not instantly mean a dive bomb. If I brake 50 meters earlier than the car behind me and they fly by me on the brakes does not mean the person is dive bombing. While most of the braking points for all of the GR3 cars a very similar (as an example), skill level is not.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This thread, and others like it, illustrate quite well why online racing is so chaotic sometimes. All the definitions of divebomb except for one or two are all vague, full of inconsistencies and mostly rely on whether a pass was successful or not. When someone like @Spurgy 777 puts forth a clear, unambiguous definition that works for every single situation possible, it's basically ignored in favour of vagueness and definitions that suit an individual's driving style and preferences, but are in no way conducive to consistent and clean racing, given the general lack of situational awareness we have in sim racing compared to real life.

 

[Spurgy 777]

This thread, and others like it, illustrate quite well why online racing is so chaotic sometimes. All the definitions of divebomb except for one or two are all vague, full of inconsistencies and mostly rely on whether a pass was successful or not. When someone like @Spurgy 777 puts forth a clear, unambiguous definition that works for every single situation possible, it's basically ignored in favour of vagueness and definitions that suit an individual's driving style and preferences, but are in no way conducive to consistent and clean racing, given the general lack of situational awareness we have in sim racing compared to real life.

Hey, what do I know. And just as a side note the exact same definition would apply to real life driving too, it's just for some reason people don't care about it in real life racing unless you make contact, which seems stupid to me but maybe that's because it's more difficult to enforce IRL.

 

[cleanLX]

A block pass can turn into a mess if the driver being passed decides they are going to turn in like the passer isn't there.

Well, even a block pass you need to first be along side or have significant overlap prior turn-in, then you run a little deep and cut the inside to protect the over-under. A block pass doen't mean leave the braking so late that the car being set up needs change line to avoid a collision.

A dive bomb is braking so late that there is no way the line is going to hold without the interference of another car. Out-braking someone to the apex does not instantly mean a dive bomb. If I brake 50 meters earlier than the car behind me and they fly by me on the brakes does not mean the person is dive bombing. While most of the braking points for all of the GR3 cars a very similar (as an example), skill level is not.

If the car attempting the out-breaking is not along side prior turn in, and causes the car being overtaken to alter their line to avoid being run into/over... that's a dive bomb.
Go watch the video in post #19 of this thread. Overtaking car makes the apex, but is clearly going to run over @Shottah072, who had already turned in. Had Shottah not made a defensive reaction (changed his line to avoid carnage) to a vehicle that was clearly on line for impact there would indeed have been significant contact. Dive Bomb.
A dive bomb is not always a **** show, I think a lot of people believe if they make it, then, it's ok... not always the case.

I'm not sure if others would agree, but I generally consider a divebomb a move where you're not alongside before the turn in point and/or a move where you have to cut across the other persons line, i.e. you can't slow down for the apex and run wide. Both of those scenarios have the same consequence that the defending driver has to turn out of the corner to avoid contact, which is why a divebomb is considered a dirty overtake.

Several in this thread have reiterated this basic principal.

 

[knd]

@Sean Renon
That's not the point, Did the overtake took a wide line while cornering pushing the other cars going out of track? It's not like the they were already in the apex of the corner.

 

[demeaning pie]

Well, even a block pass you need to first be along side or have significant overlap prior turn-in, then you run a little deep and cut the inside to protect the over-under. A block pass doen't mean leave the braking so late that the car being set up needs change line to avoid a collision.

That was not my point. The point was the a dive bomb can lead to a total mess, so can a block pass. The person being passed absolutely has to change their line when being blocked passed. A "fair" block pass leaves the person being passed in a position of braking longer and deeper into the corner, and killing the drive out. A dive bomb pushes the person being passed off the track to avoid collision.

Aside from the car in front of you spinning out and giving the position away, the block pass is the safest and most efficient way to pass someone outside of the draft pass. The problem is, you have a group of wanna be racers that have zero idea how to react to a block pass. Then there is the group of racers who think every corner is a passing opportunity.

GTS is great for ease of access racing. The problem it faces is the severity of the bugs, the lack of fair punishment for recklessness, and a very anemic single player mode. Since my G29 took a dump and I upgraded to Fanatec, I haven't been back to GTS. I've found a Tuesday night league on IRacing and it's superior in every way. I'm racing against like minded individuals who know how to race and we have race direction and stewards. Plus I get to race in VR so there is that plus too. The problem with IRacing for the general population is it does not have the ease of access that GTS has and the up front cost is vastly more expensive. The point of the off topic rant is that people are trying to make GTS into something it cannot be. The prediction that the racing will get better after a few months when the "kiddies" get bored has not happened. The game breaking bugs for the die hard fan has ruined sport mode and FIA races and you roll the dice in lobbies on who you are playing against.

 

[cleanLX]

That was not my point. The point was the a dive bomb can lead to a total mess, so can a block pass. The person being passed absolutely has to change their line when being blocked passed. A "fair" block pass leaves the person being passed in a position of braking longer and deeper into the corner, and killing the drive out. A dive bomb pushes the person being passed off the track to avoid collision.

I think we are saying the same thing, and, semantics, but, a block pass does not require the car being passed to "change" thier line, as much as it does force them to take a line they would rather not take... aka, along side prior turn in, so, no required, to "change/react/avoid" rather wait to turn in...
Pretty sure we are saying the same thing, and I only want to clarify (I think I'm clarifying, hope I'm no confusing) is for the benifit of the community in understanding/learning.

Aside from the car in front of you spinning out and giving the position away, the block pass is the safest and most efficient way to pass someone outside of the draft pass. The problem is, you have a group of wanna be racers that have zero idea how to react to a block pass. Then there is the group of racers who think every corner is a passing opportunity.

100%

GTS is great for ease of access racing. The problem it faces is the severity of the bugs, the lack of fair punishment for recklessness, and a very anemic single player mode. Since my G29 took a dump and I upgraded to Fanatec, I haven't been back to GTS. I've found a Tuesday night league on IRacing and it's superior in every way. I'm racing against like minded individuals who know how to race and we have race direction and stewards. Plus I get to race in VR so there is that plus too. The problem with IRacing for the general population is it does not have the ease of access that GTS has and the up front cost is vastly more expensive. The point of the off topic rant is that people are trying to make GTS into something it cannot be. The prediction that the racing will get better after a few months when the "kiddies" get bored has not happened. The game breaking bugs for the die hard fan has ruined sport mode and FIA races and you roll the dice in lobbies on who you are playing against.

I think I would really like IRacing... PC only right?

 

[demeaning pie]

I think I would really like IRacing... PC only right?

Correct, it is PC only. The IRacing lobbies when you first get started can be a handful much like GTS, and the progression system is similar to GTS (or where GTS got the idea). The key is finding a league. The league I am in runs one race a week (Tuesday), with a 2 hour FP1 on Monday and a 3 hour FP2 Tuesday, 15 min qualifying and then a 45 minute race. You can PM me if you would like more info, I'll be more than happy to chat about it.

 

[Macboyilija]

I cannot say if OP made a dive bomb. I can only say that if its not a dive bomb, its because he was lucky. He had no control of the car when braking and was just plain luck that his car did not hit another car. You can clearly here the tyres saying he is not in controle.

Its difficult for me to hear people say it is risky. It is way more than just risky. I am not talking about the definition of dive bomb. I dont care about that word. But to me what OP is doing is against every kind of sportmanship this particular first corner after the start.

The biggest reason for me is that it is the first corner in opening round. Lets say in round 2 or 3 and you are noticing that people before you are constantly braking to early: of course then go for it. But the very first round ? Didnt we all agree that races are not won the first corner ? And what if he was a little late and hit the guy in front of him. Would it still be just risky ? So are we result-oriented when talking about sportmanship ?

I thought we all were so happy here that in sport mode people were showing respect to each other the first corner, maybe even the first round. At least I was making posts like that. Was I wrong ? I just hate it when I am faster than the one in front of me, but lifting the gas since that is the first corner or section, but behind me they are filling all the gaps that are not there. Its just a matter of respect.

A race is not a hotlap. So not only brake earlier, but brake much much earlier. At least the first corner. Because that is what the people in front of you are probably doing as well. At least, you dont know if they are not. So if you dont know than you are just going for gaps that are not there.

You just got very lucky. So I think you should have not slept so well

 

[JulesDennis]

Correct, it is PC only. The IRacing lobbies when you first get started can be a handful much like GTS, and the progression system is similar to GTS (or where GTS got the idea). The key is finding a league. The league I am in runs one race a week (Tuesday), with a 2 hour FP1 on Monday and a 3 hour FP2 Tuesday, 15 min qualifying and then a 45 minute race. You can PM me if you would like more info, I'll be more than happy to chat about it.

Actually even when you have made progress you can find the "GTS" mentality in iRacing too.But there two points that make a difference:
A. Every race has full damage on.That means that if you wreck its the end of your race.People usually try not to wreck.
b. Even more important:any driver can report another for doing something stupid.It does not even matter if its a mistake or intentionall.You submit a "protest" against another driver and they review it.Then they take action if needed (suspension or ban).

 

[Macboyilija]

One thing I forgot to say: one of the reasons why I lift the gas even when I think I am faster than the guy in front of me the first corner is that he is driving in front of me after the start which means he is faster than me because he qualified before me. So who am I to think that I am faster than him trying to take him the first corner ?

That makes me help brake earlier than necessary. After some corners I can see the difference between a fast qualifier and a fast race pace. The one does not mean the other. And than I take my chances.

But observation before luck. That is sportmanship to my understanding.

 

[LennyB]

Taking a dive really means you cannot possibly overtake and make it stick, you might hit your fellow racer or not, might go off the track, but in the end who does not know what a dive maneuver is?

If you cannot overtake, or even realistically think you can and go deep anyway, you are diving. I peek my nose up in there though all the time, just to take a look. I know how to avoid contact especially if someone has a committed line and speed.

Suzuka comes to mind right off, there are a few places there where you can dive and pass, just to be overtaken on exit.

Etiquette is not so hard once you feel comfortable with the game's physics, to me it's perfectly fine to dive if you can keep control of your car.

 

[demeaning pie]

Actually even when you have made progress you can find the "GTS" mentality in iRacing too.But there two points that make a difference:
A. Every race has full damage on.That means that if you wreck its the end of your race.People usually try not to wreck.
b. Even more important:any driver can report another for doing something stupid.It does not even matter if its a mistake or intentionall.You submit a "protest" against another driver and they review it.Then they take action if needed (suspension or ban).

The GTS mentality is not as great in iRacing. Yes, you still get some overly ambitious racers, but I expect that in every game (we are all for the most part, a bunch of wannabe pro racers) The big difference I also believe is that it costs significantly more to race in iRacing than it does in GTS however, the quality of race experience I have had in iRacing is also significantly greater than GTS. I did the math last night in how much I have spent on my rig so far, I almost had a heart attack. It's a good thing my wife doesn't know how much it costs

I like the damage model and I like the fact that cars don't ghost out. Carnage is carnage and while it sucks getting wrapped up in it, it is part of racing.

GTS is great for quick, short races. I haven't done a race in iRacing that has been under 10 laps. Between free practice, qualifying and race you need a good hour (much more if you are running an unfamiliar car or track). League races you need even longer just to find the right set up. iRacing takes more dedicated time to play, which can be a turn off for most casual players.

The protest feature is nice, even though I will probably never use it. I could have over the weekend (swerve blocking), but I just don't care enough to do it. The league that I race in is a different story though.

 

[JulesDennis]

The GTS mentality is not as great in iRacing. Yes, you still get some overly ambitious racers, but I expect that in every game (we are all for the most part, a bunch of wannabe pro racers) The big difference I also believe is that it costs significantly more to race in iRacing than it does in GTS however, the quality of race experience I have had in iRacing is also significantly greater than GTS. I did the math last night in how much I have spent on my rig so far, I almost had a heart attack. It's a good thing my wife doesn't know how much it costs

I like the damage model and I like the fact that cars don't ghost out. Carnage is carnage and while it sucks getting wrapped up in it, it is part of racing.

GTS is great for quick, short races. I haven't done a race in iRacing that has been under 10 laps. Between free practice, qualifying and race you need a good hour (much more if you are running an unfamiliar car or track). League races you need even longer just to find the right set up. iRacing takes more dedicated time to play, which can be a turn off for most casual players.

The protest feature is nice, even though I will probably never use it. I could have over the weekend (swerve blocking), but I just don't care enough to do it. The league that I race in is a different story though.

I agree 100% with you mate.I just wanted to point out that even in better iracing/srating strength lobbies there are people that do drive "dirty" or too aggressive or whatever.Still there is a system within the sim to deal with those,something that GTS does not have.
I mean some people in iRacing dont even "forgive" simple mistakes and protest every single one of those (does not matter if you are new into the sim,still gonna -propably- get protested if you miss the brakes and destroy someone in front of you).

 

[polizei]

That was not my point. The point was the a dive bomb can lead to a total mess, so can a block pass. The person being passed absolutely has to change their line when being blocked passed. A "fair" block pass leaves the person being passed in a position of braking longer and deeper into the corner, and killing the drive out. A dive bomb pushes the person being passed off the track to avoid collision.

Aside from the car in front of you spinning out and giving the position away, the block pass is the safest and most efficient way to pass someone outside of the draft pass. The problem is, you have a group of wanna be racers that have zero idea how to react to a block pass. Then there is the group of racers who think every corner is a passing opportunity.

GTS is great for ease of access racing. The problem it faces is the severity of the bugs, the lack of fair punishment for recklessness, and a very anemic single player mode. Since my G29 took a dump and I upgraded to Fanatec, I haven't been back to GTS. I've found a Tuesday night league on IRacing and it's superior in every way. I'm racing against like minded individuals who know how to race and we have race direction and stewards. Plus I get to race in VR so there is that plus too. The problem with IRacing for the general population is it does not have the ease of access that GTS has and the up front cost is vastly more expensive. The point of the off topic rant is that people are trying to make GTS into something it cannot be. The prediction that the racing will get better after a few months when the "kiddies" get bored has not happened. The game breaking bugs for the die hard fan has ruined sport mode and FIA races and you roll the dice in lobbies on who you are playing against.

I agree with everything but the last sentiment on lobbies. IF you have friends to.play with you can start your own lobbies and police it as needed. Thats where I do the majority of my racing because sport gets boring and I much prefer racing with 5-6 people I know and a few randoms that race clean than 12 randoms I dont know all trying to kill me in the first corner. But everything else you said I agree with. I just think too many people are getting wrapped up in their ratings and rankings and missing out on having fun.

 

[PSN:And-War]

Great start ! Cleared them both before the apex, no contact and no running wide so the move was fine. Not all divebombs are bad imo. As long as you make it stick without overshooting and there is no contact all is fine. They are risky though and need the other driver to have some skill as well. It's not my prefered way to overtake someone and i only do it if i know i can trust them and brake later or if they are running close behind someone so they need to brake a little early and i can box them in.

Here is someone pulling one on me. This one was a bit to risky for my liking and required me to do some avoiding but he made it stick and there was no contact so it was legit.

I would say that was a perfect overtake

 

[demeaning pie]

I agree with everything but the last sentiment on lobbies. IF you have friends to.play with you can start your own lobbies and police it as needed. Thats where I do the majority of my racing because sport gets boring and I much prefer racing with 5-6 people I know and a few randoms that race clean than 12 randoms I dont know all trying to kill me in the first corner. But everything else you said I agree with. I just think too many people are getting wrapped up in their ratings and rankings and missing out on having fun.

I completely agree with you. The lobbies are the better place to find quality races if you have the friends to do it with. The problem usually comes down to competition if your friends are not all on the same skill level. I know that in a straight up race, 4 of my friends are faster than me and will finish in front of me unless they screw up (it's why we race right ). I race for the competition, I want to be better than those around me, which is the appeal of the sport mode and FIA races.

My main gripe with sport mode or FIA is that any swinging Richard can get in a 500 HP car and go race. Yes, you are "grouped" with people of your skill level, but it's equal to putting a 16 year old with an inhibition problem in a 370Z as their first car. Start people off in a Clio cup car or something similar and let them earn the right to race a GR3/GR1 car online. While that wouldn't solve every problem, the competition would probably be a lot better and a lot safer at the higher grade level cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I would say that was a perfect overtake

Perfect overtake? At 1:14 you mean? That's a classic divebomb. There was absolutely no overlap at the turn in point, the following car came from way back and the only reason there was no contact was because the lead car swerved to avoid him. It's moves like this that cause the most carnage online.

 

[John Crellin]

Perfect overtake? At 1:14 you mean? That's a classic divebomb. There was absolutely no overlap at the turn in point, the following car came from way back and the only reason there was no contact was because the lead car swerved to avoid him. It's moves like this that cause the most carnage online.

I dont really agree. Most of the carnage online is much more blatant than that. That was just a "cheeky" move. Could have ended in disaster if there was less awareness on the lead drivers part. But that was really just an aggressive maneuver that should be a bit frowned upon. A divebomb? sure, but only a divebomb in the semantic sense not in the spirit of the term. I wouldnt have been angry if this happened to me. In fact id be pumped about the competitive (and contact-free) racing around me

 

[polizei]

I completely agree with you. The lobbies are the better place to find quality races if you have the friends to do it with. The problem usually comes down to competition if your friends are not all on the same skill level. I know that in a straight up race, 4 of my friends are faster than me and will finish in front of me unless they screw up (it's why we race right ). I race for the competition, I want to be better than those around me, which is the appeal of the sport mode and FIA races.

My main gripe with sport mode or FIA is that any swinging Richard can get in a 500 HP car and go race. Yes, you are "grouped" with people of your skill level, but it's equal to putting a 16 year old with an inhibition problem in a 370Z as their first car. Start people off in a Clio cup car or something similar and let them earn the right to race a GR3/GR1 car online. While that wouldn't solve every problem, the competition would probably be a lot better and a lot safer at the higher grade level cars.

My group of friends have a wide range of skills but to accommodate them we will change boost from off to weak to strong depending on our whims. Winning a race w boost isn't as satisfying as boost off bit it does make for some incredibly close racing.

 

[demeaning pie]

My group of friends have a wide range of skills but to accommodate them we will change boost from off to weak to strong depending on our whims. Winning a race w boost isn't as satisfying as boost off bit it does make for some incredibly close racing.

That's good stuff. It wouldn't work in my group, the 🤬 talking would be endless

 

[polizei]

That's good stuff. It wouldn't work in my group, the 🤬 talking would be endless

Yeah there's one or two guys that take it too seriously and we have to ask them to chill out or kick them if they can't be gracious in defeat OR winning.

And then there's some guys that want to narrate every moment of every lap like they are Jeremy Clarkson and OMG, no one wants to hear it hahaha

 

[Riptide]

Wrong thread.