What is expected?

[Jbaffoh]

When a well-known troublemaker instigates problems in a well-established tuning garage thread from one of the most helpful, prolific and respected tuners in GTP, what is expected of the victim?

In the case of Praiano, the mods seem to deem any defensive response to be "aggressive" and "rude." I find this unacceptable. When someone comes into your territory and dumps a load of crap on your head, THAT person is the rude agressor, and any defensive response is justified.

Due to the misguided priorities of the mods, this site lost a hard-working tuner with a large following. This would not have happened if the mods had any sense of justice, or even common sense.

Since they cannot tolerate any form of criticism or disagreement, I would not be surprised if this post is deleted--just like all the posts in defense of Praiano in his now closed garage thread.

So, who agrees with the mods? Conversely, who agrees with justice and common sense?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

This is what is expected: https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/

That's all you need to know here. Everyone agreed to these terms on signing up. The moderators merely enforce the rules.

 

[Tornado]

Having not seen the deleted posts, it looks like Highlandor very much indeed went into another thread to start crap rather than actually contribute anything, but praiano was the one who immediately escalated things beyond the point of what the AUP allows and then argued with the staff when simply told to cut it out. Furthermore, praiano did so for no real reason, since it was clear that Highlandor's post got a negative reaction from pretty much everyone who frequents that thread, so praiano's ego shouldn't have even been bruised and things would have been fine had everyone simply ignored the post like praiano said he was going to do.



It sucks that someone essentially successfully trolled a member of such high standing off of the site, but there really isn't anything the staff could have done otherwise in that situation because he did break the rules.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Wow, I was not aware of this at all. So Praiano is now gone and MotorCityHami is also gone. I can understand Praiano's frustrations, he's been trolled by some of the same people for years and some of their proxies as well, it's very sad that it came to this though That's a great, great loss to this community, Hami's technical prowess was fantastic and he brought a great mix of real world knowledge and game experience to the table and Praiano, well he had to be the most prolific and widely used tuner on the site for the past 4 years.

That's a huge blow for the tuning community. 👎👎

 

[Famine]

Due to the misguided priorities of the mods, this site lost a hard-working tuner with a large following. This would not have happened if the mods had any sense of justice, or even common sense.

BOTH members were warned to ignore each other. ONE chose to react and abuse the staff.

That member has not been banned, so we've only "lost" them because they have chosen to leave.

Since they cannot tolerate any form of criticism or disagreement

I would not be surprised if this post is deleted--just like all the posts in defense of Praiano in his now closed garage thread.

Ohhhh, you mean the posts abusing the staff and repeating the phrase they'd been told not to post and all the posts quoting those posts? Yes, because they really belong in a tuning thread and indeed the site as a whole.

Just like this thread doesn't belong in the GT6 General Questions forum - but I moved it for you to the right place - you know, since I can't tolerate any form of criticism or disagreement...

Incidentally, the tuning thread is only locked because the member who started the thread said he was leaving the site and blanked the first post, and it stops it from becoming a magnet for people to make posts abusing the staff and getting themselves banned as a result in a self-fulfilling prophecy.


I'll repeat. BOTH members were warned to ignore each other. ONE chose to react and abuse the staff. And yet we still haven't removed him. He's just petulantly decided to remove his first post to deny any of his former helpfulness to this site's members. Which is clearly our fault and not his for behaving abusively, then behaving abusively and then ragequitting.

Incidentally, if you can find a moderating decision you disagree with, here's how to appeal it. Since the member in question hasn't been banned and the only moderation decisions I can find are warning two members about their conduct, deleting abusive posts and locking a defunct thread, I don't know which you'd want to appeal against.

 

[jimipitbull]

Praiano has a blog. I expect more people will subscribe to it now.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Wow, I was not aware of this at all. So Praiano is now gone and MotorCityHami is also gone due to threats of physical harm made through PSN. I can understand Praiano's frustrations, he's been trolled for years by some of the same people for years and some of their proxies as well, it's very sad that it came to this though That's a great, great loss to this community, Hami's technical prowess was fantastic and he brought a great mix of real world knowledge and game experience to the community and Praiano, well he had to be the most prolific and widely used tuner on the site for the past 4 years.

That's a huge blow for the community. 👎👎

I never knew about the past dealings ( troll and proxies ), but why did it happen in the first place ? Misunderstanding or simply dislikes of each other ?

I think the huge blow is a bit exaggerated, there are many other newly established in GT6 tuners with same style that can produce easy to drive tunes and quick ( they are highly active too ) Some of them are much more friendly too ( from my experience since GT5 FITT days )

Personally, I don't fancy tunes that moves away from being realistic , as I don't enjoy driving cars that do not stay close to being a sim ( an irony to GT6 slogan ), cars that tend to fall on easy, safe quick category or hotlap quick

 

[Johnnypenso]

I never knew about the past dealings ( troll and proxies ), but why did it happen in the first place ? Misunderstanding or simply dislikes of each other ?

I think the huge blow is a bit exaggerated, there are many other newly established in GT6 tuners with same style that can produce easy to drive tunes and quick ( they are highly active too ) Some of them are much more friendly too ( from my experience since GT5 FITT days )

Personally, I don't fancy tunes that moves away from being realistic , as I don't enjoy driving cars that do not stay close to being a sim ( an irony to GT6 slogan ), cars that tend to fall on easy, safe quick category or hotlap quick

I won't speculate on the reasons for the animosity.

As to the rest of your post, you're entitled to your opinion, so I'll just say that's pretty cold:tdown:👎

 

[Jbaffoh]

I never knew about the past dealings ( troll and proxies ), but why did it happen in the first place ? Misunderstanding or simply dislikes of each other ?

I think the huge blow is a bit exaggerated, there are many other newly established in GT6 tuners with same style that can produce easy to drive tunes and quick ( they are highly active too ) Some of them are much more friendly too ( from my experience since GT5 FITT days )

Personally, I don't fancy tunes that moves away from being realistic , as I don't enjoy driving cars that do not stay close to being a sim ( an irony to GT6 slogan ), cars that tend to fall on easy, safe quick category or hotlap quick

No tunes in GT6 are realistic. Just because you approximate real life numbers does not mean you approximate real life handling characterisics.

I find it odd that some people prefer to apply real life physics to the GT6 world of artificial physics. Doesn't it make more sense to optimize for the flawed world PD gave us? After all, would you apply a Bathurst setup if you were driving on the moon? No sane person would.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I won't speculate on the reasons for the animosity.

As to the rest of your post, you're entitled to your opinion, so I'll just say that's pretty cold:tdown:👎

Sorry if my wording seems cold I just feel weird when I drive tunes that do not resemble the characteristics of the real life counterpart that the game simulate ( like MR car that drives like an AWD with almost no oversteer + slight understeer ) Again, I only stated my preference ( if only I could get closer to the level of PC sim like AC in GT6 replicas , GT7 better be improved )

No tunes in GT6 are realistic. Just because you approximate real life numbers does not mean you approximate real life handling characterisics.

I find it odd that some people prefer to apply real life physics to the GT6 world of artificial physics. Doesn't it make more sense to optimize for the flawed world PD gave us? After all, would you apply a Bathurst setup if you were driving on the moon? No sane person would.

I appreciate your line of thoughts. Perhaps you should try to drive one of my cars to see the difference ( the last few cars I posted -Elise S1, Evo X and BRZ ) . Ever tried to drive GT6 cars with correct weight distribution, realistic tire grip level and suspension + LSD setup that aims realistic experience ? You will find them like opposite end of the pole. I also built cars for online racing with the same approach as my replicas and one of my garage regulars, @danbojte has been having positive experience. Different road to same destination. One of the car also won all the 3 races it entered in FITT BTCC Rd 1 ( using adapted tune from a replica )

I don't say either one of them is correct or the best, it's a preference that is different than most people ( only a few regularly used my garage ) You and everyone else are free to enjoy what you enjoy

And if it means anything, last year when Weekly Rewind was still running, my creations several times has been featured as tune of the week ( not for being quick car or easy to drive obviously ) The last month tune of the week was also replica with comfort tire ( C5 Vette on CM tire )

 

[tankuroded]

Wow, I was not aware of this at all. So Praiano is now gone and MotorCityHami is also gone. I can understand Praiano's frustrations, he's been trolled by some of the same people for years and some of their proxies as well, it's very sad that it came to this though That's a great, great loss to this community, Hami's technical prowess was fantastic and he brought a great mix of real world knowledge and game experience to the table and Praiano, well he had to be the most prolific and widely used tuner on the site for the past 4 years.

That's a huge blow for the tuning community. 👎👎

Why did MCH left?

And also, I can tell you for sure than Praiano have not removed his tunes, so some of his tunes may exist, I think.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sorry if my wording seems cold I just feel weird when I drive tunes that do not resemble the characteristics of the real life counterpart that the game simulate ( like MR car that drives like an AWD with almost no oversteer + slight understeer ) Again, I only stated my preference ( if only I could get closer to the level of PC sim like AC in GT6 replicas , GT7 better be improved )

You did more than state your preference, you basically said that both tuners were disposable:tdown:👎. Regardless of how you feel about their tunes, that's cold.

Why did MCH left?

And also, I can tell you for sure than Praiano have not removed his tunes, so some of his tunes may exist, I think.

Hami posted about it here. There's more to it than that of course, the AUP does not allow for any more detail, but that's more than enough.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You did more than state your preference, you basically said that both tuners were disposable:tdown:👎. Regardless of how you feel about their tunes, that's cold.

Hami posted about it here. There's more to it than that of course, the AUP does not allow for any more detail, but that's more than enough.

Disposable I only wanted to say that their own choice to leave and it's impact seems to be overblown, huge blow seems to make other tuners ( not me ) less important or worth less in their contribution or achievement in GT6 tuning scene. GT6 tuning forum is not only about Hami or Praiano, for example : there's another tuning garage that is very active ( in terms of post number and number of tunes ) and produce great seasonal tunes. Another tuner also have tuning guide

Hami and Praiano was most active back in GT5, they were the dominant garage, maybe that's why most who have been through GT5 days feel attached, I can understand that. Honestly, I never use any of their tune other than one or few times testing them back in GT5 when I was FITT tester.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Disposable I only wanted to say that their own choice to leave and it's impact seems to be overblown, huge blow seems to make other tuners ( not me ) less important or worth less in their contribution or achievement in GT6 tuning scene. GT6 tuning forum is not only about Hami or Praiano, for example : there's another tuning garage that is very active ( in terms of post number and number of tunes ) and produce great seasonal tunes. Another tuner also have tuning guide

Hami and Praiano was most active back in GT5, they were the dominant garage, maybe that's why most who have been through GT5 days feel attached, I can understand that. Honestly, I never use any of their tune other than one or few times testing them back in GT5 when I was FITT tester.

You basically said that they won't be missed because lots of tuners can create the same tunes and they are more friendly. I think your personal bias is creeping in and you're missing the forest for the trees to be so dismissive of their contributions to the overall tuning community. They made hundreds of tunes, helped hundreds, maybe thousands of people, generated in excess of 15,000 posts, founding and instrumental members of F.I.T.T. which is responsible for dozens upon dozens upon dozens of tuning contests and many valuable discussions into the tuning process. They each did tens of thousands of miles of testing and were not afraid to post results, not afraid to throw their tunes up against the best the GT community had to offer.

To approach this from the angle of devaluing other prolific and skilled tuners (and doubling down on that with the above quote no less) because I have great respect for these two gentlemen and think it's a loss to the community is in a word, absurd.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You basically said that they won't be missed because lots of tuners can create the same tunes and they are more friendly. I think your personal bias is creeping in and you're missing the forest for the trees to be so dismissive of their contributions to the overall tuning community. They made hundreds of tunes, helped hundreds, maybe thousands of people, generated in excess of 15,000 posts, founding and instrumental members of F.I.T.T. which is responsible for dozens upon dozens upon dozens of tuning contests and many valuable discussions into the tuning process. They each did tens of thousands of miles of testing and were not afraid to post results, not afraid to throw their tunes up against the best the GT community had to offer.

To approach this from the angle of devaluing other prolific and skilled tuners (and doubling down on that with the above quote no less) because I have great respect for these two gentlemen and think it's a loss to the community is in a word, absurd.

I admit I never been close to both of them since GT5 days and I never put them any higher than other tuners in terms of respect ( they are all the same to me ). What you said about them also can said to other tuners from GT5 and GT6 that has been missing for months ( also was here since FITT established ) , and yet, nobody ever mention them ( The boys form Clueless Over the Hill Outlaws )

I think we should think about why they make such drastic action to close garage and leaving their followers. I am just one man, my view don't mean much for them who have won the respect of many Once again, sorry if I offend anyone.

 

[Jbaffoh]

This is what is expected: https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/

That's all you need to know here. Everyone agreed to these terms on signing up. The moderators merely enforce the rules.

No, the mods SELECTIVELY enforce the rules, and some mods interpret them differently than others. Some stretch the definition of "aggression" and "rudeness" to include the mildest things you might hear in a kindergarten or church, let alone on prime time TV. Some must wilt if they leave the safety of their computer screens and venture into the real world.

And to make things worse, they treat productive assets to the site on the same footing as habitual trolls. Should a victim appropriately rebuke a troll, then he's chastised. When people come to the defense of the victim, their comments are deleted and threads are closed to avoid further questioning of or embarrassment to the mods.

Meanwhile, good people who generate and attract thousands of comments and make the game more enjoyable for most, are left unsupported and leave to avoid the targeted harassment.

In the end, the trolls survive to cause trouble for others.

Bye Hami, Praiano, JogoAsobi, ET, and the rest.

 

[Exorcet]

And to make things worse, they treat productive assets to the site on the same footing as habitual trolls. Should a victim appropriately rebuke a troll, then he's chastised. When people come to the defense of the victim, their comments are deleted and threads are closed to avoid further questioning of or embarrassment to the mods.

This isn't your site. What's appropriate is dictated by the AUP and Admins. Praiano did not make an appropriate response, and from what I've seen he was given nothing but fair warning for doing so.

So in short:

When someone comes into your territory and dumps a load of crap on your head, THAT person is the rude agressor, and any defensive response is justified.

is not true because the rules of the site apply at all times. I'm not an active member of the tuning forums, but I know of the member in question and his contributions and I think it's unfortunate that he decided to go. I don't know how people are blaming mods though.

 

[PJTierney]

So Praiano is now gone and MotorCityHami is also gone.

Not good, both of them were quite helpful with their tunes and responses to questions. I'm still learning what makes a GT6 car quick and they were a good resource for that.

 

[Francois B]

My question is who is next?

The guys that left, are not 10 minute tuners. The time, effort, passion etc. spent by them, gets nullified, when a person (read: troll) walks away with a TKO, with some help from the corner.

 

[Northstar]

In the end, the trolls survive to cause trouble for others.

It seems you are correct on this one...

This whole thing reminds me of this Chapelle's Show skit (sorry, this was the best quality I could find).

Language Warning.... Duh!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

No, the mods SELECTIVELY enforce the rules

"Selective" is an odd choice of words for a situation where both members were given equal warning about violating the AUP. It could be considered "selective" that the member in question still has not received an infraction despite being abusive towards a member of staff. But I'm guessing that's not what you mean.

Some stretch the definition of "aggression" and "rudeness" to include the mildest things you might hear in a kindergarten or church, let alone on prime time TV. Some must wilt if they leave the safety of their computer screens and venture into the real world.

Kindergarteners swearing is something I don't have much experience with. Not that it matters what you (nor I, nor any other member other than Jordan) personally deem acceptable: the AUP isn't negotiable. As members of staff, we enforce it when we see situations that require it. Or more accurately in this case, simply remind people of it.

And to make things worse, they treat productive assets to the site on the same footing as habitual trolls.

The same rules apply to every member, so in that sense, correct. Being a contributor to the site does not exempt anybody.

Should a victim appropriately rebuke a troll, then he's chastised.

If it's AUP-breaking, it isn't appropriate, simple as.

When people come to the defense of the victim, their comments are deleted and threads are closed to avoid further questioning of or embarrassment to the mods.

If it's AUP-breaking, yes, it will be deleted. You've already been told why the thread was closed: the OP deemed fit to remove it's primary use.

Meanwhile, good people who generate and attract thousands of comments and make the game more enjoyable for most, are left unsupported and leave to avoid the targeted harassment.

Personally, I'd consider a member of staff giving a verbal warning - and therefore, a chance to cool off before things could escalate - instead of immediately tacking on points to be a form of support.

 

[mistersafeway]

So somebody leaves after a moderator politely warns them and another person and it's the moderator's fault!?

 

[Lizard]

So somebody leaves after a moderator politely warns them and another person and it's the moderator's fault!?

Basically yes.

Person is abusive.
Moderator is kind to them.
They leave in a hissy fit after insulting said moderator.
Moderator is hounded by people saying he was unfair.



You can't win sometimes.

 

[photonrider]

Was it a loss?
I rarely use tunes. If ever. But it is sad to lose friends.

Yet, one person doesn't make the whole site. And this, too, shall pass.

However - from the little I saw of the hissy fit, I have no option (factoring my trust in the staff, after long years of experience with their MO) to know that they acted in the best interests of all members. Not just one or a few.

A slap on the wrist shouldn't have been taken so sulkily, however important, or invulnerable, anyone feels that they are.

 

[VBR]

When a race event I used to run became over run with trolls, I immediately posted to all members not to feed the trolls, that is; to stop posting & arguing with them. I then bought Premium membership so that I could lock the tread down, next I contacted the mods & left things in their capable hands. The situation was eventually dealt with using both justice & common sense, to the satisfaction of all concerned (except for the trolls that is, one of whom got banned). I guess if I had responded in kind & got deeply involved in a slagging match, I might've experienced a different outcome for myself.

And the moral of the story is: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!! Just report them to the mods, it's their job to deal with them according to whatever procedure Jordan's put in place.


👍

 

[joeledward]

This is probably going to get me into strife, and sorry nowcontrol for being off topic.
I understand that @@praiano63 was only warned by Mods and he did break AUP.
But his loss effects many thousands of people worldwide. It also effects GTplanet directly ( many thousands of people come here just for his tunes ) As this site is a business that relies on advertising less people visiting = less ads seen. ( I know I will get the lecture about "We know how our site operates and we don't need you to tell us that" " And if you don't like it then don't visit it")
I also know that Mods have to remain impartial and can't be seen to show any favouritism to any individual and have to be mindful that the site needs to be clean and free of bickering , swearing and flame wars and that" they are only doing their job"
Whilst I am also aware that @@praiano63 has by his own choice decided to leave and that no mod is at fault here, where in AUP does it say that Mods and admin can not try and retain one of the most productive and well thought after members? One whom is held in such high esteem by members world wide. One who is relied upon by so many world wide to get results and progress in this great game.
Surely the human element must come into play and mods and admin could show some humility and common sense and try and get this most respected and productive member of back on here.
I am not having a go at Admin or Mods you do a great job but people make mistakes don't let him go so easily we all lose out
Once again sorry to Admin and Mods I mean no disrespect I am just shocked that this has happened.


Edit - I originally posted this on the 630pp bathurst thread and the OP kindly gave me the link to here

 

[Beeblebrox237]

No, the mods SELECTIVELY enforce the rules, and some mods interpret them differently than others. Some stretch the definition of "aggression" and "rudeness" to include the mildest things you might hear in a kindergarten or church, let alone on prime time TV. Some must wilt if they leave the safety of their computer screens and venture into the real world.

And to make things worse, they treat productive assets to the site on the same footing as habitual trolls. Should a victim appropriately rebuke a troll, then he's chastised. When people come to the defense of the victim, their comments are deleted and threads are closed to avoid further questioning of or embarrassment to the mods.

Meanwhile, good people who generate and attract thousands of comments and make the game more enjoyable for most, are left unsupported and leave to avoid the targeted harassment.

In the end, the trolls survive to cause trouble for others.

Bye Hami, Praiano, JogoAsobi, ET, and the rest.

In over four years of membership here I have never felt that the mods have been unfair. They enforce the rules equally, and if you don't like the rules then that's your problem, not theirs.

You're blaming the actions of an individual member on the moderating staff when in fact the staff were very polite and tolerant. Praiano got angry, he broke the rules, and when warned about it he realised that he didn't want to adhere to the AUP so he left. The mods had very little part in his leaving. Everyone on this site agreed to the AUP when they signed up; if they can't keep to the terms they themselves agreed to then they don't belong here.

If you have a problem with the moderators' action I suggest you take it up with Jordan.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

No, the mods SELECTIVELY enforce the rules, and some mods interpret them differently than others. Some stretch the definition of "aggression" and "rudeness" to include the mildest things you might hear in a kindergarten or church, let alone on prime time TV. Some must wilt if they leave the safety of their computer screens and venture into the real world.

And to make things worse, they treat productive assets to the site on the same footing as habitual trolls. Should a victim appropriately rebuke a troll, then he's chastised. When people come to the defense of the victim, their comments are deleted and threads are closed to avoid further questioning of or embarrassment to the mods.

Meanwhile, good people who generate and attract thousands of comments and make the game more enjoyable for most, are left unsupported and leave to avoid the targeted harassment.

In the end, the trolls survive to cause trouble for others.

Bye Hami, Praiano, JogoAsobi, ET, and the rest.

This is probably going to get me into strife, and sorry nowcontrol for being off topic.
I understand that @@praiano63 was only warned by Mods and he did break AUP.
But his loss effects many thousands of people worldwide. It also effects GTplanet directly ( many thousands of people come here just for his tunes ) As this site is a business that relies on advertising less people visiting = less ads seen. ( I know I will get the lecture about "We know how our site operates and we don't need you to tell us that" " And if you don't like it then don't visit it")
I also know that Mods have to remain impartial and can't be seen to show any favouritism to any individual and have to be mindful that the site needs to be clean and free of bickering , swearing and flame wars and that" they are only doing their job"
Whilst I am also aware that @@praiano63 has by his own choice decided to leave and that no mod is at fault here, where in AUP does it say that Mods and admin can not try and retain one of the most productive and well thought after members? One whom is held in such high esteem by members world wide. One who is relied upon by so many world wide to get results and progress in this great game.
Surely the human element must come into play and mods and admin could show some humility and common sense and try and get this most respected and productive member of back on here.
I am not having a go at Admin or Mods you do a great job but people make mistakes don't let him go so easily we all lose out
Once again sorry to Admin and Mods I mean no disrespect I am just shocked that this has happened.


Edit - I originally posted this on the 630pp bathurst thread and the OP kindly gave me the link to here

Or, you know, Priano could just grow up and learn to not post the first reaction that enters his head.

This situation could be compared to two children fighting in the school playground. One of them feels entitled to special treatment just because he's popular, so when the teacher calmly tries to break the fight up he loses it and storms off. All of the kids (with the emphasis in this analogy on 'kids') fail to look at the situation objectively. They completely ignore the fact that what he did was wrong, and go on to whine endlessly.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

And someone thought my earlier post was cold

 

[niky]

We cannot be there to hold everyone's hands at all times.

Yes, we all see the reports. And we understand that there are people who are quite... irritating... but if they do not commit an abuse that is covered by the AUP, then there's little we can do but suggest they find a more constructive use of their time.

Take a look at some of the downright nasty people it took us forever to kick off, because they didn't fall afoul of the AUP often enough.

-

If you see a post that's problematic or that you think is problematic, report it. If we find anything against the AUP, we'll warn that person off or give them a ticket. Even if we don't do anything publicly, we've seen it, and that person will be watched.

-


Also, again, Praiano was not given an infraction. He was just told to stop fighting. A few years ago, when I was a very active participant in the GT4 section, I received an infraction for a (gloriously long) rant punctuated with a swear word. I deserved that infraction, and accepted it. Wasn't the end of the world. I accepted my mistake and moved on.

-

I suggest everyone here do the same.