What is good handling?
- Thread starter ///M-Spec
- 70 comments
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- 347
I dunno, a rally car on dirt won't grip/handle as good as an auto-x car on pavement. However the rally cars all have to deal with the same traction issues so it's fair and they have relative handling.
- 1,397
yeah but in this case the reference was in grip = good numbers, while not necessarily being a great handling car.
ive listed some cars (older cars mostly) whose grip levels arent very high, but whose handling is great.
ive listed some cars (older cars mostly) whose grip levels arent very high, but whose handling is great.
- 24,249
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
You don't need any grip to handle well, all you need is a balanced chassis with plenty of 'communication' through the wheel. Fat tyres on a lot of modern cars hide the fact that the chassis are duffers. Handling and grip are completely different. Top Gear (british TV programme) last night had a test of the new 'Viper' - Clarkson said the car had plenty of grip, but the chassis was s**t - therefore the car didn't handle - case in point.
- 6,977
- old-guy64
For me, good handling is a car that goes where it's pointed with no nasty suprises. For instance, my old Escort had good handling to a point. However, when it didn't like the set it had taken it would "step in" suddenly on left hand sweepers.
The best handling car I've ever driven: A toss up between a friend's 1982 Camaro, and my mother's old M-Bz 280 Sedan. For the quick and sharp the Camaro was quite stable, and controllable. It was also forgiving of the heavy-handedness of a then 18-19 year old "Ricky Racer" wannabee.
The Benzie, though old (1974) was quite solid, and I've never enjoyed driving thru the Napa Valley more than when I did it in that car.
Most recently, I drove a '96 Probe GT that was a suprisingly good handling little car. The pedals were a bit close together for my liking. It was also a test-drive and I didn't push the car really hard. If the CEL hadn't have come on, I might have been able to persuade my wife that it would be a good "winter rat" for me being a FF car and all. But I might have had to share it with my kids.
The best handling car I've ever driven: A toss up between a friend's 1982 Camaro, and my mother's old M-Bz 280 Sedan. For the quick and sharp the Camaro was quite stable, and controllable. It was also forgiving of the heavy-handedness of a then 18-19 year old "Ricky Racer" wannabee.
The Benzie, though old (1974) was quite solid, and I've never enjoyed driving thru the Napa Valley more than when I did it in that car.
Most recently, I drove a '96 Probe GT that was a suprisingly good handling little car. The pedals were a bit close together for my liking. It was also a test-drive and I didn't push the car really hard. If the CEL hadn't have come on, I might have been able to persuade my wife that it would be a good "winter rat" for me being a FF car and all. But I might have had to share it with my kids.
- 1,397
i just drove brand new (2000miles on the odo) rental buick regal 1500 miles 2 weekends ago. it went where i pointed it, but there was no way it was anywhere near a good handling car. the steering didnt load up as i turned, so i got the same resistance/ feedback from the wheel at full lock as i did at center. very eerie.
it soaked up the bumps ok, but the front end kept wallowing even after the bump had been passed.
it braked very quickly and strongly with little fade (didnt have to test it repeatedly thankfully) but all that braking motion was in the first inch of pedal travel. barely touching the pedal elicited near panic stop braking forces.
this vehicle was capable in everyway, but needed some final honing in certain areas; more brake pedal travel with graduated force, more damping control (bound more than rebound,) more feedback from the steering wheel as you turn.
of course i normally drive a 300E which is a very highly composed car in everything except 9/10s and 10/10s driving. but even my 1976 BMW 2002 is a far better "resolved" car when it comes to steering, braking and handling than the buick.
it soaked up the bumps ok, but the front end kept wallowing even after the bump had been passed.
it braked very quickly and strongly with little fade (didnt have to test it repeatedly thankfully) but all that braking motion was in the first inch of pedal travel. barely touching the pedal elicited near panic stop braking forces.
this vehicle was capable in everyway, but needed some final honing in certain areas; more brake pedal travel with graduated force, more damping control (bound more than rebound,) more feedback from the steering wheel as you turn.
of course i normally drive a 300E which is a very highly composed car in everything except 9/10s and 10/10s driving. but even my 1976 BMW 2002 is a far better "resolved" car when it comes to steering, braking and handling than the buick.
- 347
I dissagree. A car can't handle better than it's grip can allow it. The Viper handles good because it's chassis is able to work at full potential because it gets a very good amount of grip. Same goes for the Ford GT, if it didn't have 2 feet wide of contact patch in the back it would be more prone to oversteer, which, regardless of how the chassis is set up, means it wouldn't handle as good. Grip and handling are different things but they are very much associated. Handling is nothing without grip.
- 347
Interestingly enough, I'm told that 3rd generation f-bodies (Camaro/Firebird) handle better than the 4th generation by several people.Gil
I wonder if that's true, the 4th gens are lighter though.
- 24,249
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
Drifting Thunda
I'm sorry, but thats just plain bollex - The original Lotus Elan is often considered (by professional road testers and even F1 engineering gods) to be the finest handling car ever - and the Elan runs on skinny 60's cross-plys!!! - any tyre wider or more modern may give the car more grip, but will upset the handling balance.
Giving a car more grip only raises its potential cornering speed - this isn't 'handling' by any stretch of the imagination.
You read so many road tests these days on new cars where the tester comments on how buying the factory optional bigger wheels (New Mini, BMW M3, Boxter etc) ruins the cars handling.
- 24,249
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
///M-Spec
Not true, Clarkson didn't say he hated the Viper - he loved it, he just said it handled like crap. If he hates US cars so much he probably wouldn't have bought a new Ford GT.
- 347
How would a more modern or beefier tire upset the handling balance?TheCracker
Cornering speed has a hefty lot to do with handling, that's a lie. A higher cornering speed would mean less understeer which would mean better handling.
Bigger WHEELS upset the cars handling and linear acceleration because it's often a few lbs. more unsprung weight and... that's it. Try putting better tires on the standard wheel. One guy who autocrosses his car can attest to the improvements. The stock tire is a 215, and he put 255s on the stock wheel to compliment his suspension and chassis mods and the tires have helped greatly. If you have wider tires the car will be less prone to leave neutrality in cornering, which, if you ask me, translates to better handling in that aspect. I see the difference in grip and handling, I'm just saying the two things help each other.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
TheCracker
As I said, "unless it was originally designed by a Brit". The original GT40 was a joint Anglo-American project.
I've read numerous Clarkson articles (we get TopGear here) where he makes dismissive generalizations of Americans and American cars. In fact, in the article where he first drives the GT in Detroit, he takes several cheap shots at American culture and people. But then again, he also makes fun of Germans and Italians every chance he gets, so I guess its not personal: he's just a generally hateful SOB.
M
- 24,249
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
///M-SpecAs I said, "unless it was originally designed by a Brit". The original GT40 was a joint Anglo-American project.
I've read numerous Clarkson articles (we get TopGear here) where he makes dismissive generalizations of Americans and American cars. In fact, in the article where he first drives the GT in Detroit, he takes several cheap shots at American culture and people. But then again, he also makes fun of Germans and Italians every chance he gets, so I guess its not personal: he's just a generally hateful SOB.
He hates everyone, Brits included - don't take it too personally
- 1,397
Drifting Thunda
so you are telling me that my little 76 BMW 2002 has ****ty handling coz its grip is low. there is where you have erred. old cars designed to handle in the era of skinny tires are known to have "truer steering feel" when using the skinny tires. if you use the wider, sticker tires of todays era in those cars your ruin the feel and feedback you get from the steering.
im actually going to reduce the size from 185/70-13 to 175s next time around to increase its tactile steering feel. the car feels more lively with the smaller tire, even if its only 10mm smaller.
what youre saying is tantamount to saying "you have to go fast to have fun if youre racing." just because its racing, doesnt mean that you have to achieve the highest speeds.
handling i would describe as how the car talks to you about what its doing.
grip is what the mechanicals are doing. usually they go hand in hand, sometimes they dont. and it isnt always bad.
- 347
No, I'm saying that I think better tires can only help a car to handle better, but I did not by any means mean to say that skinny tires won't do any good.neanderthal
Maybe it's true that newer tires soak up more of the road harshness than older era tires, but I don't necessarily think that that is detrimental to handling and honestly I don't think whether or not your car gives you feedback through the wheel/shifter/pedals has anything to do with handling. To me that's a whole other aspect of automobilia.
But I think I get your point.
After all, both of my cars are wearing fairly narrow 215 all-seasons, but the '97 handles far better than the '86. But I am looking at it like this: If I take the '97 to the track as-is it will be much slower than if I throw 255 autocross radials on all 4 corners. Not because the car is any more powerful or faster, but because it can navigate the turns at higher speeds and maintain traction. It does sort of go hand-in-hand with handling because if the tires won't hold up then what the hell good is IRS or a thick anti-roll bar for example? Just trying to show you how I'm looking at it.
- 1,397
you might be getting it, im not too sure.
heres the thing; a car with great handling and low limits will communicate those limits as you approach them. whereas a car with poor handling (communication) but great stick will just suddenly let go when you have broached those limits. no real warning.
heres the thing; a car with great handling and low limits will communicate those limits as you approach them. whereas a car with poor handling (communication) but great stick will just suddenly let go when you have broached those limits. no real warning.
- 347
That's like my '86.neanderthal
- 4,274
- New Zealand
- SkylineObsession
- Mangosaurus
The best handling car i've ever driven is the Nissan Skyline GTS-4 i should have in my driveway in about five weeks.
It is a 1990 R32 Skyline with GT-R parts on it (wheels etc... - it is the next step down from a GT-R, the one after that is the GTS-t), four wheel steering (which makes the car corner extremely well), four wheel drive (helps for take-offs, 4WD only engages when rear wheels lose traction), single turbo, 220 hp+ and one of the sweetest exhaust notes i've ever heard. I love the sound of the turbocharger hissing away as i'm cruising down the street.
It does corner really well though. Almost feels like it is on rails. No understeer, very controllable oversteer (just like most Skylines) although i still suck at car control.
It is a 1990 R32 Skyline with GT-R parts on it (wheels etc... - it is the next step down from a GT-R, the one after that is the GTS-t), four wheel steering (which makes the car corner extremely well), four wheel drive (helps for take-offs, 4WD only engages when rear wheels lose traction), single turbo, 220 hp+ and one of the sweetest exhaust notes i've ever heard. I love the sound of the turbocharger hissing away as i'm cruising down the street.
It does corner really well though. Almost feels like it is on rails. No understeer, very controllable oversteer (just like most Skylines) although i still suck at car control.
- 24,249
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
neanderthal
So true, The Cortina i race used to run on Yokohama A008R's a few seasons back, these were modern (at the time) 205's with a semi slick, but road legal tread but moulded in a softer race rubber. They changed the rules for our series recently and now we have to run skinny Dunlop 165's and 185's which are again a soft compound, but of 'period' cross-ply construction. Our lap times have dropped by around five seconds per lap on some of the longer circuits - but the cars handle better ! This is because, like neanderthal stated, the lower limits of the tyres capabilities and the higher sidewalls give the cars better feeling through the wheel where as the old Yokos had plenty of grip, but felt deader and gave little warning before they 'let go'
- 1,795
Handling is sudden response, stability, and finally overall lateral traction.
Drifting is an insult to handling
Drifting is an insult to handling
- 152
I say that "good handling" is "safe handling". I mean "safe" when the car turns with good response and you can easily control the car in an emergency situation; that would be enough for me. As long as I can take turns at the posted speed limit without slowing down much, I'm fine with it.
- 1,397
you are equating adequate with good. if you reread the first post, the request was for what is good handling, not adequate handling.
pretty much all cars sold today have adequate handling. that doenst mean its good.
pretty much all cars sold today have adequate handling. that doenst mean its good.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,903
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Victor VanceHandling is sudden response, stability, and finally overall lateral traction.
Drifting is an insult to handling
Really, many would say that a car requires good handling characteristics and excellent communication to be drifted well. If the driver is not aware of what the car is going to do then a controlled drift if far more difficult.
It should also be remembered that communication of grip, etc does not just come from the steering wheel, but also through the seat and pedals.
- 147
My RX-7 with cusco coilovers... mmmmm
- 1,003
sounds to me like some people like soft suspensions with bad shocks
Danoff
Premium
- 34,331
- Mile High City
I agree with a lot of what has been written in this thread. Good handling to me means a quick predictable response - predictable being the key in on-the-edge situations.
Good handling means that you don't have to throw the steering wheel far to acheive a sharp turn. It means that body roll is at a minimum, and that the car stays stable and locked in at high speeds and over bumps.
Almost invariably it seems that cars handle well when they don't have a lot of power - because as at least one person pointed out, cars feel buttoned down and grippy when you're driving them too slowly. But large steering wheel travel or body roll can make a car feel like it handles badly even at slow speeds.
I'd say that it's a combination of control and power. The more power in the car, the better the control needs to be.
I think the best description I've read is that the car becomes an extension of you. It feels somewhat organic - no mechinery or imprecision.
Good handling means that you don't have to throw the steering wheel far to acheive a sharp turn. It means that body roll is at a minimum, and that the car stays stable and locked in at high speeds and over bumps.
Almost invariably it seems that cars handle well when they don't have a lot of power - because as at least one person pointed out, cars feel buttoned down and grippy when you're driving them too slowly. But large steering wheel travel or body roll can make a car feel like it handles badly even at slow speeds.
I'd say that it's a combination of control and power. The more power in the car, the better the control needs to be.
I think the best description I've read is that the car becomes an extension of you. It feels somewhat organic - no mechinery or imprecision.
- 1,003
I believe that if it has great limits...& your a good driver, the rest will follow...albeit jumping in a car & feeling like you own it is great...& magazines eat it up....drive any car for a little while & it will become second nature to you...even any unsettledness, as you'll realize what will make it unsettled...at least, if your a good driver.
Young_Warrior
(Banned)
- 2,285
Good handling is a nsx porsche m3 ferrari and atom.
