What is the Best Method to Balance the BoP?

[dabz343]

Why even have BoP if there is always an obvious meta?

 

[Magog]

Seems like all cars lose HP and gain weight which is confusing. The baseline should be somewhere in the middle with some cars losing weight and some gaining some cars losing HP and some gaining.

 

[dabz343]

Tinkering with HP and weight is a starting point, but its more about how PD evaluates what needs adjustment. Lots of races in Sport, maybe they should look at the data?

Maybe even introduce races with certain specs to dial in the balance?

 

[SnakeEyes427]

In GT5 I spent a lot of time trying to work BOP out for GT cars and muscle cars. The thing is, there will always be a car that handles one track better than another even if they all have the same power to weight ratio. BOP is just not easy to work out. Ask any racing organization.

 

[dabz343]

The thing is, there will always be a car that handles one track better than another even if they all have the same power to weight ratio. BOP is just not easy to work out.

Agree that BoP isn't easy and there will always be a car or two that works better for one track or another. However, when we look at some 40+ cars in Gr3 for example, it seems to me that the range in performance from the worst to the best is quite large.

So the question is not whether BoP is difficult to configure, or will there always be a slightly faster car, but what can PD do to inform the BoP so that all cars are within an acceptable range?

Based on my initial observation, 2sec difference a lap is rather a large gap between Gr3 vehicles.

 

[danthespam]

There will always be problems with any kind of bop or equivalent, the only real solution is one make races which nobody really wants all the time. Agreed that the cars could be closer than they are but generally speaking they adjust bop for some cars and then others become the meta until they are adjusted and so on. Factor in the differences between tracks, conditions, Rwd/fwd/4wd, fuel economy, tyre usage etc then the whole idea becomes very complex. They're also looking at data from hundreds of thousands of different drivers with different styles who prefer different tracks/cars. To get all of these cars to be nearly equal is a massive undertaking...

 

[dabz343]

Certainly things can get complex very quickly, thus not really likely that PD will ever approach it in a comprehensive manner.

I'm more on the side of a simple solution, like taking the obvious meta from the daily results and nurfing them slightly. Just tone them down a bit each and every time until they lose their top status.

Like sanding down the high points to arrive at a smooth surface.

 

[Meythia]

Why even have BoP if there is always an obvious meta?

There will always be a "good" and a "bad" option, when there is more than 1 option available.

Seems like all cars lose HP and gain weight which is confusing. The baseline should be somewhere in the middle with some cars losing weight and some gaining some cars losing HP and some gaining.

In the past there have been made changes that didnt result in an overall slow down (which recently only was done in 1.31), the most recent update has again pushed some cars upwards in their performance.

Lots of races in Sport, maybe they should look at the data?

How do you think BoP is done? Car x: PP rnd(690-730)?
Just because one favourite might be at that spot for a long time and unchanged doesnt mean it is any different than PD looking at results and declaring other changes are better than simply reducing the performance of the current meta winner.

So the question is not whether BoP is difficult to configure, or will there always be a slightly faster car, but what can PD do to inform the BoP so that all cars are within an acceptable range?

I didnt watch any of the manufacturers cap races, but this is where it actually matters.
If the top racers have obviously different times, then there is the point where BoP matters.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Why even have BoP if there is always an obvious meta?

Because bop doesn't account for layout size, running gear distribution.

There are better cars for certain types of drivers and certain configurations we all follow because the quick guys do.

Yet more more recently the quick peeps are gravitating to one car but others are holding their own in the leaderboards.

Once race pace factors in to things and risk adversity takes over you start to see people experiment or go with safer options than balls to wall qualifying stuff.

As a side note I reckon just being consistent is worth more than a meta car. Sure you might not win but that's racing sometimes.

 

[benjoi84]

As a side note I reckon just being consistent is worth more than a meta car. Sure you might not win but that's racing sometimes.

This is a great point. There's no reason to follow the meta just because other people tell you it's the best option. At the end of the day, you might be faster with a total outlier choice, but it's very hard to know unless you have your driving technique very dialled-in.

There's enough random appearances in the top 500 times of most combos to show me that good times CAN be set by the supporting cast of cars and therefore they're doing a half decent job at BoP. I think it's mainly human nature coming through which is causing the disproportionate ratio of the meta.

As others have said, it's obvious that some cars are outright bad but as long as some less used cars appear in the top times SOMEWHERE, there's still hope.

 

[J Vulture]

.

 

[skidmark69]

BOP is generally better than people assume, but at the same time it will never be perfect all the time without also making all cars exactly the same, which is not desirable People tend to just jump on whatever is top of the leaderboards and that skews perception of BOP a lot.

I do think PD could put more effort into it and fine tune it a bit more based on data, and more frequently out of season especially, but it's not a disaster the way it is now. An examples to illustrate this is the fact that there are 7 different cars in the top 10 at the Fuji time trial right now. I also looked at the results from daily race qualifiers a little while ago, and in a gr.4 race there was an M4 right at the top even though the median time for that car was by far the worst. So presumably it was possible to drive that car almost as fast as the meta cars, but very few people used it and there were very few times on the leaderboards representative of its true potential.

Unless you're in top split you can safely experiment with pretty much any car and be competitive. Most likely if you choose one you like and stick to it you will get a better time out of it than blindly following the meta, since the cars do drive slightly differently, and for that PD deserve a lot of credit.

After a bit more fine tuning of power/weight BOP, the best way to level the playing field as much as possible would probably be to allow tuning of suspension, differential, gearing, brake bias, (and maybe even aero) but in general it seems the community doesn't want to deal with setups.

 

[dabz343]

BoP in reality is complicated and I don't think that PD is being expected to layout a conclusive framework that even the real like professionals struggle to get right. But I do expect PD to present a reasonably balanced performance that gives each car a reasonable chance at any track with any other car.

So the first question for me is, what is reasonable here? Well pretty easy. Whatever the race conditions, tire/fuel multiplier, car type, etc., every car should be within 1sec of the meta. Yesterday I was in a practice lobby for the daily at Spa and surprisingly, most drivers were not using the meta(s). We ran for hours, and people flowed in and out, but the gap between P1 and P10 remained within 1sec. This produced marvelous racing -- some of the best ever. Here were the Gr3 cars that seems to be balanced in a reasonable range.

Lambo
Audi R8
BMW Z4
McLaren
Ford Mustang
Aston
Ferrari
Genesis X
Honda
Jag
Lexus

So I lightly tested each at 2 tracks (Spa and Nurb GP) and my suspicions were confirmed. All cars were more or less within 1sec of my top performer -- the Lambo. While driving the list, I also appreciated how PD took the time and effort to design the overall character of each car. Some are obvious and easy to figure out, while others need a subtle approach. Shame there is little exploration.

So there is currently a chunk of cars in the middle of the Gr3 category that are well balanced in my view. If these were our only choices, then I believe the racing would be even better. This mid pack also shows that PD knows how to dial in the performance so that there are no outliers. But for some reason(s), they choose maintain a broader range so that the same niche of cars remain on top no matter the track or conditions.

 

[danardif1]

With the league I run in we've decided that for BOP we'll use the power and weight figures that PD use for their in-game BOP (this is not an exact science as some of their power figures are not achievable with just the ECU adjustment, so we settle on as close as possible for those instances) with open setup for suspension, gears and aero...

I've done a lot of testing on a decent range of the Gr3 cars for this, and even with custom setups for each car on them when I did a back-to-back test at Trial Mountain with about 10 of them they were pretty much all within 1-1.5 seconds of each other.

The thing I don't like the most in GT7 is the fixed setups for 'BOP'. This is not something that is required in any real BOP championship and it makes some cars basically unusable when with not even that complex a setup process they can be made driveable and competitive.

 

[dabz343]

Yep agree that fixed setups adds to the disparity of performance. Just the ratio of gears play a huge role, and if we get all the way down to camber, aero and diff...the workload for PD to consider all the variables seems unrealistic.

So back to the question of how to create a balanced BoP in the most simple way. I say just keep nerfing the meta until it becomes clear that there are multiple cars on the leaderboards for Sport races. Look at the Spa daily right now. Pretty clear which cars are dominating. Yes, there are the occasional pilots that defy logic with a Genesis X for example. But, it would be awesome if the first 100 global leaderboard showed a dozen or so cars with similar pace.

I know there will always be a meta, but a truly balanced BoP means that the window of difference is narrower that currently allowed by PD. Just to be clear, a 12 car shootout within the Gr3 category is still only 25% of the total available cars. Currently, there are only 2, maybe 3.

I also know nerfing the meta isn't the most elegant solution, but I when I used to run in a league that wanted to welcome multiple levels of racers, we nerfed the podium by adding ballast. Again, not the prettiest solution, but it got the job done 9 times out of 10.

 

[ILLEAGLE_34]

There will always be a "good" and a "bad" option, when there is more than 1 option available.

True but 3-4 if your lucky out of the 40+ or whatever is still silly 🍻

ecause bop doesn't account for layout size, running gear distribution.

Again true but it’s still the same 3-4 cars regardless of the track that are on top/ considerably easier to be fast and consistent. Not saying that you couldn’t compete with the others but you have to be damn good to.

I’m sure this is a way over simplified approach but it’s possible to just adjust the power/weight of the cars (while not touching any gearing or downforce etc) so that most if not all cars should be within a 1-1.5 of each other in average hands. Take top speed and corner exit speed and sector times and some fancy math (or trial and error) different bop for every track would be required. I honestly don’t really know what I’m talking about but it kinda use for us back in the day trying to even out cars in 2 player mode. Plus it makes so much sense in my little brain 🍻

 

[snowgt]

Seems like all cars lose HP and gain weight which is confusing. The baseline should be somewhere in the middle with some cars losing weight and some gaining some cars losing HP and some gaining.

That's not confusing at all, but replicating reality. Each car without BoP must have the most power and least weight and be restricted with restrictor plates or restrictions to boost. The car is homologated, so it can't just magically add power.

Same with weight - you can't take anything off the base weight. You can just add ballast.

 

[J Vulture]

.

 

[Magog]

That's not confusing at all, but replicating reality. Each car without BoP must have the most power and least weight and be restricted with restrictor plates or restrictions to boost. The car is homologated, so it can't just magically add power.

Same with weight - you can't take anything off the base weight. You can just add ballast.

But they ALL have added weight and restricted power don't they? Significantly so. Make them drive like old dogs. It's a game not reality.

 

[ILLEAGLE_34]

 

[dabz343]

Take away the Supra and it'll be a GTR, take away the GTR and it'll be another Toyota or massive brand. The RS01 is up there for when the GTR isn't suitable. The Renault/Nissan Alliance company is absolutely huge. PS the Supra and RS01 aren't even active GT3 cars and the GTR hasn't been active or successful in years. Gr.3 anyone? BMW, Porsche, Audi, Ferrari, McLaren, Aston, Lamborghini and Mercedes would all come before Toyota and Nissan if it was true BoP.

Can't disagree with you about the influence of money. What would the world be if there wasn't favoritism towards sponsors? I think we are all aware how branded stickers on liveries work. But, you make a good point in case some think the Supra has earned its status on merit alone.

For me, I don't need or want PD to replicate the real world. It's their game and I understand licensing and other limitations exist for them to have compose their own fantasy roster of Gr3 cars -- often with outdated models. And I don't care if there is a meta, or 2 or 3. I just wish that they simply level the field so that all cars are within a balanced range -- no more than ~1sec per lap.

 

[J Vulture]

.

 

[dabz343]

Aren't most if not all Gr3 already within 1 sec per lap most of the time?

Far from it. That is why I made this post...I would happily blend into the backgournd if all cars __ were within a reasonable 1 sec per lap.

Less than .4 sec would be better and that would be on a longer lap like Spa.

I agree, a Gr3/4 grid within a 0.4sec gap would be fab...especially in a long tack like Spa...but this isn't the case now...by a long margin.

It's us that suffer a ridiculous Japanese fantasy because of it. Sony and PD have enough money to have made this game and still be picking up thier Shiba Inu's crap with 10,000 yen notes.

I'm not sure how what you say can be addresses...

 

[newmedia_dev]

Just looking at the current leaderboards:

Hurricane, 911s, 4C, Ferrari, RS01, MCL etc etc on the gr3 top 100 (and let's be honest most of us aren't top 1000 drivers let alone 100)

GR4 is a little less varied but there are G70s 458s, MCL, silvas and a few borderline outliers like the WRX

So in terms of qualifying the BoP seems ok.

Race pace is very different though and honestly bop has very little impact if you're going wide or over brake yourself etc. even the slowest car will pass you when you are a ghost...

You also have to remember that the quick quick quick guys are trying to out do each other in a given car not quite what we do "well" in although granted they usually land on the fastest out and out car early.

 

[MonoTonouS]

PD can Literally solve this issue with dynamic BOP. If X car is winning you either nerf it or make it the base line and every single half hour other cars get their stats marginally improved until people stop using the meta car and then a new one pops up that gets balanced out .. You do that for a year and you get a static well tested bop.. This whole we can manually adjust BOP is why free market capitalism with a splash of socialism always crushes communism and crony capitalism . No one is smart enough to fine tune a system but you can let it fine tune itself and intervene when things go out of whack instead of intervening as a reaction to your miscalculations perpetually .

 

[newmedia_dev]

PD can Literally solve this issue with dynamic BOP. If X car is winning you either nerf it or make it the base line and every single half hour other cars get their stats marginally improved until people stop using the meta car and then a new one pops up that gets balanced out .. You do that for a year and you get a static well tested bop.. This whole we can manually adjust BOP is why free market capitalism with a splash of socialism always crushes communism and crony capitalism . No one is smart enough to fine tune a system but you can let it fine tune itself and intervene when things go out of whack instead of intervening as a reaction to your miscalculations perpetually .

BoP would be a much bigger deal if we could all drive the same consistently over a whole race or TT session.

I beat so many meta cars in my low lobbies because it's not the BoP it's the driver that is the weak link.

Edit: Spelling.

 

[MonoTonouS]

BoP would be a much bigger deal if we could all drive the same consistently over a whole race or TT session.

I beat so many meta cars in my low lobbies because it's not the BoP it's the driver that is the weak link.

Edit: Spelling.

Such a system would see your car is winning and slow it down in relation to the base car in half an hour say like 1 hp. Your car would stop getting slower when you stop winning . Your car may not even get slow because if 9/10 drivers are loosing positions then it may even get a speed bump . But if every bozo is picking a beetle and winning then yeah slow that car down asap

 

[newmedia_dev]

Such a system would see your car is winning and slow it down in relation to the base car in half an hour say like 1 hp. Your car would stop getting slower when you stop winning . Your car may not even get slow because if 9/10 drivers are loosing positions then it may even get a speed bump . But if every bozo is picking a beetle and winning then yeah slow that car down asap

In the real world they run ballast and reverse grids. Or just don't care in formula 1

Why slow "your" car down? That's balance of player performance not car performance.

They are equalising the cars and some are easier to drive but they can all do the same or there about lap-times.

They balance the players by skill and the players have a choice on the easier (sic) vs the slightly trickier but more rewarding cars.

The cars are not our limiting factor in performance.

 

[787Bee]

The RSR allows an average driver to race without traction control, and has forgiving gear ratios. It might be a meta car, and capable in the hands of the masses, but there are usually faster cars out there for every track when driven by an elite driver

 

[dabz343]

I beat so many meta cars in my low lobbies because it's not the BoP it's the driver that is the weak link

The cars are not our limiting factor in performance.

Car performance may not be the determining factor amongst novices, but it becomes more and more of a differentiator as you rise in driver skill.