What would make Gran Turismo 7 a guaranteed purchase for you?

[FS7]

👍:tup:You know GT has a lot of work to do when finishing mid-field in PCars or other games is more exciting than any race you've ever run offline and won in GT5/6.

True.

A few days ago I was watching some replays of races I've done over the past year in PCars, it's interesting that some of my best races are races I didn't win. Same goes for F1 games & Race Pro.
Imo that's one of the best things about having everything unlocked from the start in solo mode, I setup options & difficulty so that it's possible to take pole and win but it will require me to drive well and consistently throughout the entire race and I have AI opponents racing at a good pace and giving me a challenge all the time. I'll try my best to win every race but if for some reason I don't win I don't have to worry about not getting credits or not unlocking cars, if I'm not leading I keep going and still try to finish the race as best as I can.
That's what racing is about imo.

The whole "win every race to earn money and unlock cars" thing is one of the reasons there's so many quitters & rammers online, people want to win at any cost and quit if they're not leading the race.

 

[Greatbee]

As long it is Gran Turismo by Polyphony Digital I will purchase it. I have all series! 👍

 

[Jay]

If it just released.

That would make it a guaranteed purchase for me.

 

[ScottPuss20]

👍:tup:You know GT has a lot of work to do when finishing mid-field in PCars or other games is more exciting than any race you've ever run offline and won in GT5/6.

I personally do not think finishing mid-field in Project Cars is more exciting than winning any offline race in GT5 and GT6. Overall speed is not the key to making AI great to play against, I value respect on the track more than anything. The PCars AI show little or no respect for you, cutting corners and dive bombing as if you're not there. At least GT5 and GT6 program the AI so they're respectful on track. Whether they put up a fight is another story.

 

[avens]

In GT5 and GT6 the AI is so slow that in most races you are in first place after the first or second corner. Therefore the AI not bumping into you hardly matters, as you've passed it immediately.

 

[Spagetti69]

For a guaranteed purchase it would have to be up there with the top sims. On past observations that is a big ask.

As a console gamer Dirt, upcoming Assetto Corsa and hopefully a decent showing from
F1 2016 should see me through.

Frustratatingly Forza has all the toys but not the tools.
Single player, 3 lap, one off races don't cut the mustard. If there was a way to fully customise the grid, length of race and maybe even create a custom competition I would be back there for some fun.

GT may offer this option so time will tell.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I personally do not think finishing mid-field in Project Cars is more exciting than winning any offline race in GT5 and GT6. Overall speed is not the key to making AI great to play against, I value respect on the track more than anything. The PCars AI show little or no respect for you, cutting corners and dive bombing as if you're not there. At least GT5 and GT6 program the AI so they're respectful on track. Whether they put up a fight is another story.

There are some issues with PCars it's true, but for the most part, when the field sorts itself out after a few corners, the racing is close and intense. Most importantly, the cars are on pace in both the corners and the straights and they take real racing lines through the corners. In GT the cars are usually so off pace and erratic through the corners you can't "race" with them. Add in the rubberbanding in GT and you simply cannot "race" with other cars with similar power and tires. In PCars and other sims it's possible to feel like you are actually "racing" from flag to flag. I've never had that feeling in GT5/6.

The way I see it, all the core elements are all there in PCars, it just needs fine tuning. In GT, so far anyway, the core elements are all missing, other than the fact that they unrealistically tend to avoid you at all costs.

You can't seriously tell me that you've ever had a race even close to this in GT5/6 (previously posted by @05XR8).

 

[1241Penguin]

At least GT5 and GT6 program the AI so they're respectful on track.

They do? Because all I remember about the AI is how much they cut me off and brake check me.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

They do? Because all I remember about the AI is how much they cut me off and brake check me.

But they also do such things as wait trackside for a gap to rejoin when they've spun off. They also sometimes give you room if you're beside them.

 

[1241Penguin]

But they also do such things as wait trackside for a gap to rejoin when they've spun off.

That's not exactly a worthwhile point given that rejoining a track doesn't exactly comprise most of the race, as opposed to something like, overtaking, or even just driving in a straight line.

They also sometimes give you room if you're beside them.

Hardly ever see that.

 

[Scaff]

I personally do not think finishing mid-field in Project Cars is more exciting than winning any offline race in GT5 and GT6.

You are quite literally the first person I have heard say that.

Overall speed is not the key to making AI great to play against, I value respect on the track more than anything.

One without the other is pointless.

The PCars AI show little or no respect for you, cutting corners and dive bombing as if you're not there.

I'm sorry but that's simply a gross exaggeration and plenty of evidence exists to show it as just that. So lets take a look at three videos, none of which I staged to illustrate this point.

Formula rookie clip in which an AI car clearly stops moving back onto the line to avoid contact with me.


In this one an AI actually goes off track rather than cause an accident.


A full race (to show the above are not select edits) in which the cars following race in a manner that is resonably realistic, not cutting corners, dive bombing and actually fighting for position. Its arguable that the AI in this case is actually less aggressive than an actual Touring Car race would be.


Is PCars AI perfect? No, of course not, but it does show both pace and situational awareness that, for me, is simply at a different level to GT.

At least GT5 and GT6 program the AI so they're respectful on track. Whether they put up a fight is another story.

I disagree. GT's AI is mainly interested in its line and I have quite frankly lost count of the number of times its treated me as invisible simply to get back on that line, even when I have been alongside but ahead of it.

 

[Tornado]

I personally do not think finishing mid-field in Project Cars is more exciting than winning any offline race in GT5 and GT6. Overall speed is not the key to making AI great to play against, I value respect on the track more than anything. The PCars AI show little or no respect for you, cutting corners and dive bombing as if you're not there. At least GT5 and GT6 program the AI so they're respectful on track. Whether they put up a fight is another story.

In GT6 they're so respectful that they let off and match your speed so you don't have to lose the race.

 

[Johnnypenso]

From the above video...this is what the pack should look like on the first lap racing offline in GTS...or any "racing" game/sim for that matter:

 

[ScottPuss20]

You are quite literally the first person I have heard say that.


One without the other is pointless.


I'm sorry but that's simply a gross exaggeration and plenty of evidence exists to show it as just that. So lets take a look at three videos, none of which I staged to illustrate this point.

Formula rookie clip in which an AI car clearly stops moving back onto the line to avoid contact with me.


In this one an AI actually goes off track rather than cause an accident.


A full race (to show the above are not select edits) in which the cars following race in a manner that is resonably realistic, not cutting corners, dive bombing and actually fighting for position. Its arguable that the AI in this case is actually less aggressive than an actual Touring Car race would be.


Is PCars AI perfect? No, of course not, but it does show both pace and situational awareness that, for me, is simply at a different level to GT.


I disagree. GT's AI is mainly interested in its line and I have quite frankly lost count of the number of times its treated me as invisible simply to get back on that line, even when I have been alongside but ahead of it.

Why is it that whenever I talk about how bad the PCars AI is I get shunted? I never suggested that GT's AI was totally flawless, there's just one aspect of the AI that I like. Being so analytical is just a total waste of time, I don't know why you have to go into so much detail in order back up what is quite honestly an opinion. Isn't my experience my experience? Why are you forcing things down my throat? It's as if my experience shouldn't exist and that I shouldn't dare share them because they are false. I can't fake my own experience, so why do I get the impression that you simply deny it? Give me a break mate.

I will go on to grill you about the videos you have provided here
Number 1
I'm sorry, but I fail to see the point you're making with this video. The AI NEVER left his line to let you through. You simply outsmarted him and took him on the inside line. Nothing to see here folks, move on...
Number 2
It shows how stupid the AI can be in order to be fair. Going of the track deliberately is the height of pathetic programming. AI should not make themselves go off the road when you push them wide, they should slow down and let you pass.
Number 3
The AI don't fight for position, what are you talking about? They stay in one line and basically become a brick wall if you are starting at the back.

I don't know what it is, I think my game is a bad apple because the AI does not provide any sort of thrill or excitement. Just frustration and anger. Sorry SMS, you've failed me. I will not come back for PCars, Ian Bell. Unless you can prove to me that your AI can actually give me eventful races.

 

[Scaff]

Why is it that whenever I talk about how bad the PCars AI is I get shunted?

Its a response not 'being shunted' and its because other people may not agree with you and this is a discussion forum?

I never suggested that GT's AI was totally flawless, there's just one aspect of the AI that I like.

Good job I never suggested you said that then.

Being so analytical is just a total waste of time, I don't know why you have to go into so much detail in order back up what is quite honestly an opinion. Isn't my experience my experience? Why are you forcing things down my throat? It's as if my experience shouldn't exist and that I shouldn't dare share them because they are false. I can't fake my own experience, so why do I get the impression that you simply deny it? Give me a break mate.

Yes your experience is your experience, but this is also a discussion forum, not a personal blog.As such when you post you should be doing so with the explicit understanding that others may not agree with you and are free (within the AUP) to say so.

I will go on to grill you about the videos you have provided here
Number 1
I'm sorry, but I fail to see the point you're making with this video. The AI NEVER left his line to let you through. You simply outsmarted him and took him on the inside line. Nothing to see here folks, move on...

Your looking at the wrong car, 0:10 second to 0:11 seconds quite clearly shows the AI car move away from continuing a line that would have resulted in contact.

Number 2
It shows how stupid the AI can be in order to be fair. Going of the track deliberately is the height of pathetic programming. AI should not make themselves go off the road when you push them wide, they should slow down and let you pass.

AI that can make the kind of mistakes that people do is a bad thing? Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.

Number 3
The AI don't fight for position, what are you talking about? They stay in one line and basically become a brick wall if you are starting at the back.

Odd because I see the AI field both fighting with itself and those behind me attempting to pass, particularly when I make a mistake. Yes they do take the line when no overtaking opportunity presents itself (as they should), but when an opening presents itself they will both attack and defend. In the first lap alone you have the AI passing, being passed and battling for position at 0.30, 0.48, 1.20, 1.27, 1.34 to 1.45 and 1.50, with this looking a long way away from "one long line".

As for staying in one line and becoming a brick wall, again not my experience, I once missed qualifying (making a cup of tea and forgot about the time) and had to start at the back of the pack in a Ginetta Jnr race. This video is the highlights from a 15 lap race during which I moved from the back to finish in second. I didn't see much in the way of brick wall or the AI just staying in a line for the entire duration.

I don't know what it is, I think my game is a bad apple because the AI does not provide any sort of thrill or excitement. Just frustration and anger. Sorry SMS, you've failed me. I will not come back for PCars, Ian Bell. Unless you can prove to me that your AI can actually give me eventful races.

I can only think that you are looking for a very different AI, but for me (and I suspect quite a few others) PCars AI, while not perfect, does offer races that are eventful and exciting. In contrast GT's AI offers, to me, little more than an opportunity to overtake a series of spaced out rolling roadblocks that stick slavishly to the racing line the vast majority of teh time.

 

[ImaRobot]

Odd because I see the AI field both fighting with itself and those behind me attempting to pass, particularly when I make a mistake. Yes they do take the line when no overtaking opportunity presents itself (as they should), but when an opening presents itself they will both attack and defend. In the first lap alone you have the AI passing, being passed and battling for position at 0.30, 0.48, 1.20, 1.27, 1.34 to 1.45 and 1.50, with this looking a long way away from "one long line".

Interesting enough, is the fact that one would say such a thing, when you can see the multiple lines that are being taken by different AI's. Hell, at 1:20 you can even see the one BMW push hard on the inside and overpass a few vehicles. There's a lot more diversity within the Ai than what he is willing to accept.

Another interesting bit was at the 1:50 area, when the track tightens. You can see the Ai backing off and even sharing the road, changing their lines and everything. Sure there is rubbing, but I think that's the beauty of it. They are all taking a different line but still being able to drive competitively at speed within such a tight area. The fact that the Ai is even able to keep up with you is testament to the fact that so much more is going on within this game, than GT.

I don't know what it is, I think my game is a bad apple because the AI does not provide any sort of thrill or excitement. Just frustration and anger. Sorry SMS, you've failed me. I will not come back for PCars, Ian Bell. Unless you can prove to me that your AI can actually give me eventful races.

If this is all it takes for you to abandon something completely, than I find it odd how you hold onto hope for GT. You'd think you would have had the same things to say about them, if that was the case.

 

[FS7]

If I start at the back in GT6, 30 seconds behind the leader, using the exact same car, with all aids off, pass every AI opponent cleanly (generally go around them on the outside since they always try to maintain their line and are unaware of my position on track) and take the lead in only 3 or so laps that doesn't mean the AI in GT6 is respectful, it means the AI in GT6 is crap and needs improvement, both in terms of pace and in terms of position awareness & aggression.
AI in PCars isn't perfect but is a lot more interesting to race against than GT6's AI. My last race was a 30-minute LMP1 race at Silverstone GP, I started on pole and won only 5 seconds ahead of 2nd place after pushing the car and keeping a consistent pace for the entire race. That's just one of many good races I had against AI in PCars. I don't remember ever having a good race against GT6's AI, it's always the same bs, start in last, pass a bunch of slow cars, catch up and pass the rabbit, then cruise to the end.

 

[Scaff]

Interesting enough, is the fact that one would say such a thing, when you can see the multiple lines that are being taken by different AI's. Hell, at 1:20 you can even see the one BMW push hard on the inside and overpass a few vehicles. There's a lot more diversity within the Ai than what he is willing to accept.

Another interesting bit was at the 1:50 area, when the track tightens. You can see the Ai backing off and even sharing the road, changing their lines and everything. Sure there is rubbing, but I think that's the beauty of it. They are all taking a different line but still being able to drive competitively at speed within such a tight area. The fact that the Ai is even able to keep up with you is testament to the fact that so much more is going on within this game, than GT.

Yep, the move at 1:20 is from (I suspect) forth to take second, another good example is when I make a mistake at 4:20 and run wide onto the gravel allowing the chasing pack to close up on me. The second place car uses this to set-up at attempt to pass me between 4:40 and 4:48 which I manage to fend off. They try again at 4:54, but in doing so opens the door to the third place car to attempt a move and in having to defend that looses the chance to overtake me and in doing so allows me to draw out a lead once again.

At no point during that period (from 4:20 to 4:54) is any attempt at dive-bombing made, nor any overly aggressive move made, the AI is (to my mind) firm but fair in its driving for that entire period.

 

[super_gt]

Dream car championship
Nürburgring 24h - 2 Laps
The top AI drive this car:

I drive this car(stock) with sports soft tires:

and at the end I won.

GT6 leaves me with the impression that I can do this in the real world too

 

[Imari]

That's just one of many good races I had against AI in PCars. I don't remember ever having a good race against GT6's AI, it's always the same bs, start in last, pass a bunch of slow cars, catch up and pass the rabbit, then cruise to the end.

This is the thing for me. Sometimes I find the pCARS AI to be :censored:holes, but sometimes you get fantastic battles. I'm willing to put up with the odd random shunt in order to get the odd spectacularly exhilarating race.

Which, I should add, is what it's like racing real people. Sometimes people are :censored:holes and punt you off, intentionally or not. And sometimes you have great racing. Gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Gran Turismo never has those moments of brilliance, simply because of the way it's AI is designed. I'm sure there's some people that just want to go round and round and have the other cars be largely predictable and not get in the way too much, but that's not racing to me. I can do that as well on an empty track, if I'm going to have other cars with me I want to battle and use my racecraft to outsmart them.

I think by not including AI that actually puts up a fight, at least at the higher levels of the game, the player misses out on a lot of potential enjoyment that can come from going wheel to wheel with one other car for ten minutes straight. It's a great feeling when you outsmarted and outdrove your opponent, even if the opponent is the computer.

 

[Scaff]

This is the thing for me. Sometimes I find the pCARS AI to be :censored:holes, but sometimes you get fantastic battles. I'm willing to put up with the odd random shunt in order to get the odd spectacularly exhilarating race.

Which, I should add, is what it's like racing real people. Sometimes people are :censored:holes and punt you off, intentionally or not. And sometimes you have great racing. Gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Gran Turismo never has those moments of brilliance, simply because of the way it's AI is designed. I'm sure there's some people that just want to go round and round and have the other cars be largely predictable and not get in the way too much, but that's not racing to me. I can do that as well on an empty track, if I'm going to have other cars with me I want to battle and use my racecraft to outsmart them.

I think by not including AI that actually puts up a fight, at least at the higher levels of the game, the player misses out on a lot of potential enjoyment that can come from going wheel to wheel with one other car for ten minutes straight. It's a great feeling when you outsmarted and outdrove your opponent, even if the opponent is the computer.

Quite agree, this example shows the point your making....



....the yellow AI car committed to a gap that arguably wasn't present and ended up on the grass and in a massive loss of control. Yet its the sort of mistake a person could make, rather than an accident caused by being brake checked at the exact same corner every time or an AI driver than must return to its line regardless of what's in the way.

And sometimes the accident is actually our fault rather than the AI....



....which is why I now use Crew Chief with PCars, because I know that some accidents that some would blame on the AI are actually the fault of the person in the chair.

 

[05XR8]

To add, straight up I've been thrown off when the pit contact me before a turn. I want to have a Kimi button at those moments. Thing is, that's a real reaction. I don't press restart or throw the controller or exit the race or turn off the game. I press on and see if i can recover. I have finished every race(except the one where I ran out of fuel and the one where my rear wheel came off).

 

[FS7]

Gran Turismo never has those moments of brilliance, simply because of the way it's AI is designed. I'm sure there's some people that just want to go round and round and have the other cars be largely predictable and not get in the way too much, but that's not racing to me. I can do that as well on an empty track, if I'm going to have other cars with me I want to battle and use my racecraft to outsmart them.

Ideally there should be 2 separate sliders for difficulty, 1 for pace & 1 for aggression. Pace is generally good in PCars but I'd probably turn the aggressiveness down a bit with certain car/track combinations.
The interesting thing is that one can make PCars easier & similar to GT6 in terms of difficulty (skip practice & qualifying, start in last, rolling start, turn damage off, turn AI difficulty down), but one cannot go the other way around and make GT6 harder (and by harder I'm talking actual realistic difficulty, not that bs fake difficulty some people here suggest, like using slower cars, downtuning, etc).
That's the thing PD doesn't seem to understand, by working on the AI and proving more options (difficulty sliders, qualifying, damage, penalties, adjustable race length) PD could make GT more challenging for experienced players while maintaining the game accessible for casual players.

 

[super_gt]

(and by harder I'm talking actual realistic difficulty, not that bs fake difficulty some people here suggest, like using slower cars, downtuning, etc).

That was sarcasm not suggestion 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ideally there should be 2 separate sliders for difficulty, 1 for pace & 1 for aggression. Pace is generally good in PCars but I'd probably turn the aggressiveness down a bit with certain car/track combinations.
The interesting thing is that one can make PCars easier & similar to GT6 in terms of difficulty (skip practice & qualifying, start in last, rolling start, turn damage off, turn AI difficulty down), but one cannot go the other way around and make GT6 harder (and by harder I'm talking actual realistic difficulty, not that bs fake difficulty some people here suggest, like using slower cars, downtuning, etc).
That's the thing PD doesn't seem to understand, by working on the AI and proving more options (difficulty sliders, qualifying, damage, penalties, adjustable race length) PD could make GT more challenging for experienced players while maintaining the game accessible for casual players.

For a game that is supposed to have such broad appeal, GT has remarkably few adjustments and options for the player to adjust the game to suit his/her needs. Most of the adjustments have to made to the player's car instead. It would not surprise me at all to see the AI in GTS be remarkably improved but still with very little, if any, adjustability available to the player.

 

[cutmeamango]

PCars AI is for the "spectacle". It follows what GRID did. They body check each other way too frequently. And their grass and rain physics are funny. But at least it gets the funky flag system running.

Love both the BMW 1M at Snetterton and the Ginetta at Donington videos above. Love them.

 

[ImaRobot]

PCars AI is for the "spectacle". It follows what GRID did. They body check each other way too frequently. And their grass and rain physics are funny. But at least it gets the funky flag system running.

Love both the BMW 1M at Snetterton and the Ginetta at Donington videos above. Love them.

Whatever it seems to be doing, I dont mind it. It's the closest racing I've had with AI(across the whole field) in any current racer.

Forza has it's "Unbeatable" setting, but all that really means is "only the people in the first handful of places are going to pose any challange."

 

[Tornado]

I was kind of annoyed that the Drivatar system still ultimately manifested itself as the same problem Forza 4 had with M. Rossi even when the cars should be very well matched.

 

[ImaRobot]

I was kind of annoyed that the Drivatar system still ultimately manifested itself as the same problem Forza 4 had with M. Rossi even when the cars should be very well matched.

They really just seem to be in some sort of set mode, rather than actually "learning" as time goes by.

 

[7HO]

I personally do not think finishing mid-field in Project Cars is more exciting than winning any offline race in GT5 and GT6. Overall speed is not the key to making AI great to play against, I value respect on the track more than anything. The PCars AI show little or no respect for you, cutting corners and dive bombing as if you're not there. At least GT5 and GT6 program the AI so they're respectful on track. Whether they put up a fight is another story.

You're doing it wrong. BTW before I go on the point of AI is to give you a race experience using artificial intelligence that simulate real world driving, GT has never done this, GT provides a few moving chicanes at the start of a race.

Anyway there are some basic principles to getting a good AI experience in sims that have good AI so if you are not getting a good experience it is because you are doing it wrong. This is an Empty Box video that is talking about the ISI engine sims but this is applicable to most proper racing sims.