What's everyones problem with ABS?

[theotherspongey]

I wasn't aware that a game was real life

 

[G219]

Ah gotcha.... I do enjoy some cars more with the other stability controls on (like the Formula GT, I also have TC set at 1 for the 787B to take the edge off). But not very many. In my real car I prefer to switch off the traction and stability controls because aside from ABS I'm not a fan of electronics cutting in on me.

I didn't buy this game looking for a super realistic experience, just a fun one. I actually only bought the game to help memorize the layout of the Nurburgring since I'm going to Germany next summer on vacation when I'll get the chance to drive it. I don't care if it's a realistic car simulator or not as long as it's more accurate than Need for Speed.

Fair enough. Seems I did over-analyze. Like I said the last post cleared things up. Didn't mean to sound rude/wasn't an attack.

Enjoy Germany, it's very nice (especially in the summer). Good luck on the 'Ring!

 

[Obsidian-2]

Until the brake pedals have accurate force feedback, then I have no problem with in game ABS. It may not be realistic to real ABS, but braking in the game is nothing like braking in a car either, not even close. I always use 1 myself, never change it.

The problem many people have with ABS is they are part of the "mine's bigger than yours crowd" who think they are better because they don't use it. Simple as that. Same with all driving aids really. Even though I drive with all aids off other than ABS, I still find the room hosts who shut everything down to limit the way others drive to be somewhat arrogant. The only aids in game I think are truly aids are SRF and the driving line to some extent. The rest are more what fits your individual style, ABS included. Some like the flashing gear indicator are probably more of a hindrance than a help.

Other than Karts (obviously) there has never been a time trial where the leaders had ABS to zero either so it's obviously faster.

 

[QB1o]

With ABS on you can brake anywhere, but with it off you often need to brake in a straight line.
This means people with ABS off get rear ended by guys using ABS because the braking points are usually sooner, and when you get hit from behind when you're on the brakes you spin hard.

ABS off is more fun and far more realistic, gets the adrenaline going. Thumbs up.

 

[newbielives]

Braking without ABS is a lot like braking in my real life car and NO I do not need force feedback on my brake peddles to do this. Like everything else in life it just takes practice feathering the brake until it becomes second nature. I don't have a problem with other people using ABS but I'd rather race with people who are not braking late and braking into a corner while you are struggling to keep the car under control without the help of ABS.

 

[tribolik]

I have no problem with people using ABS... and I also dont hate people that use ABS...
Just dont allow it in my room... if anyone has a problem with that it is not my problem... to each is own.

 

[Short Bus]

Fair enough. Seems I did over-analyze. Like I said the last post cleared things up. Didn't mean to sound rude/wasn't an attack.

Enjoy Germany, it's very nice (especially in the summer). Good luck on the 'Ring!

Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it. I found a place that rents prepped cars specifically for the 'Ring. Since it'll be my first time I'll be going with a prepped Scirocco.

I don't want to hijack the thread, so that'll be that.

 

[Kwicko]

It doesnt allow to brake more efficiently, it simply give the ability to smash the brake with no modulation.

My issue with that is this: If you're using the 6-axis controller, you really can't modulate the brake efficiently at all by pushing a button on the controller. I tried running with ABS=0, and the slightest tap on the brake button resulted in lockup.

So I tend to run with ABS on 1.

Oddly, I've never had ABS on any of my real vehicles, so have no frame of reference for how good/bad it is in real life.

 

[BobbyBRAKEaNek]

No problem with abs here. I tried using it but it didn't work to well, so I stay with abs1.

 

[wood2569]

I use the ABS 1 setting. I think I do a fairly good job at racing. If we are talking about it not being like IRL, well I'm sorry but my steering wheel on my IRL car doesn't vibrate. My pedals hang down from the top not stick up from the bottom and my IRL car has ABS. There are certain things you have to rely on with the game because you don't get the same feedback as you would in an IRL car. Like feeling the G's pushing and pulling your body in a manner that tells you youre about to push the car too far. Or that subtle chatter of the tires right before they lock up. So ME using abs is more like an insurance policy telling me the tires arent going to lock up so i can do what i need to do.
The idea of someone getting upset because someone does or doesn't use assists in the game is beyond my range of thinking. Cause in the end when its all said and done.


IT'S A GAAAAMMMMMEEEE!!!!!

No one loses any money. No ones car got smashed. No one died. It's just a game. Made for us to get enjoyment out of. Who is anyone else that thinks they should tell me the "rules" of how I'M to achieve MY OWN ENJOYMENT!

Nuff Said

 

[devildog666]

With ABS on you can brake anywhere

That's not true. I couldn't tell you how many times i've been sideways going into turn 1 at Grandvalley Speedway with abs. You have to turn left and break hard at the same time. In a really fast car it can get wicked.

 

[QB1o]

i'd like to add that ABS off doesn't work well unless you change the brake bias settings in your car setup.
Set the rear braking force to 1 or 2, otherwise you'll just spin out as soon as you mash the pedal.
I use Front:4 and Rear:1 for roadcars.
Doing this isn't possible if using 'recommended cars' online as they don't let you adjust the settings.

Correction:
With ABS on I can brake anywhere.

 

[HksDrifter]

I have abs off when I drift

 

[Kwicko]

I use the ABS 1 setting. I think I do a fairly good job at racing. If we are talking about it not being like IRL, well I'm sorry but my steering wheel on my IRL car doesn't vibrate. My pedals hang down from the top not stick up from the bottom and my IRL car has ABS. There are certain things you have to rely on with the game because you don't get the same feedback as you would in an IRL car. Like feeling the G's pushing and pulling your body in a manner that tells you youre about to push the car too far. Or that subtle chatter of the tires right before they lock up. So ME using abs is more like an insurance policy telling me the tires arent going to lock up so i can do what i need to do.
The idea of someone getting upset because someone does or doesn't use assists in the game is beyond my range of thinking. Cause in the end when its all said and done.


IT'S A GAAAAMMMMMEEEE!!!!!

No one loses any money. No ones car got smashed. No one died. It's just a game. Made for us to get enjoyment out of. Who is anyone else that thinks they should tell me the "rules" of how I'M to achieve MY OWN ENJOYMENT!

Nuff Said

Yes indeed. In real life, I can actually do a fairly decent job of limit-braking, holding the car on the verge of lockup without locking a wheel. In the game, I don't get that level of feel through the little brake button on the controller. And from what I'm reading, nobody gets that level of brake control through their wheel&pedal setups, either.

But if anyone else wants to run ABS off, more power to 'em. Wish I could get the hang of it, but I just can't.

 

[yzfmike]

My issue with that is this: If you're using the 6-axis controller, you really can't modulate the brake efficiently at all by pushing a button on the controller. I tried running with ABS=0, and the slightest tap on the brake button resulted in lockup.

So I tend to run with ABS on 1.

Oddly, I've never had ABS on any of my real vehicles, so have no frame of reference for how good/bad it is in real life.

Many people use controllers in GT5 so, ABS 1 is the way to go. Besides doesn't anyone remember that ABS was created to help people stop in the elements specifically like snow, and rain, and keep the car under control? Just as note to ya, Kwicko any vehicle in USA after 1986 ( might be a year or two off) came with ABS stock by law. ABS has changed greatly over to years. It use to shake the pedal but with the systems now, don't have that feedback anymore.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

I only use ABS off when I'm test driving a car. Leave it on when racing though.

 

[GT55YW]

I run ds3, but I use the little toggle lever things. I do disagree that ABS is the worst driving aid, because traction control kills me. There are a few people I know who have TC on 6+ and have beaten so much of the game, yet they basically push a toggle forward, and everything does the game by itself. I tried driving with their aids (they use everything) and it is so strange. I feel no connection, or anything with the vehicle. B spec is more stimulating than a race with aids. I also tried TC 1 with some high powered vehicles, and that turned out TERRIBLE. I ended up moving slow as sin to start, then say 2 or 3k rpms in, my tires just spun, and I had to control it on my own anyway. And I could find no balance, as cranking it up stopped the tires from spinning, but then I had the effect of slow acceleration all the way through the tach. So I just went slow on acceleration with the high powered cars.

But this technique failed with ABS. I try testing it out, and moving slow but this challenge BLOWS AWAY the challenge of switching to standard (gt3) and the challenge of no other driving aids at all (4&5).

I read on another thread regarding traction control systems like the new McLaren, and GT-Rs, and how they perform very differently from real life, and I can try to understand how ABS is the same, but everytime I use it I try to go slow, and be careful, but it's just sliding and smoking and spinning.

I also tried involving it with drifting, but I failed there too lol

 

[ghsnu]

So it all comes down to "realism". Figures. Excuse me while I go hoodpalm myself.

*hoodpalm*


As I've said before, a "sim" is, and will remain for now, just a game. Sure, we have motion rigs, 73629 TV screens set in a circle, and useless tracking of your head - but we don't have FFB in a controller, nor pedals. No true FFB in a wheel (don't quote me on this - I don't have a wheel). Point is - we still don't have the technology to actually play a sim as a sim.

Furthermore, programming a game isn't advanced enough yet (or so it appears in even the "true super mega hard ultra core sims") to model wind, track conditions (we have clean roads nowadays apparently - even on a track ), tuning (I'm certain we can adjust even more than what Forza allows - even rFactor. Will we ever see it? Probably not - sadly - I want to make a car misfire throughout the 'Ring . Even then, I'm pretty sure the upgrade system is just about bogus when it comes to power), as well as other things my mind can't write right now (Top Gear is quite distracting ). Will we see an absolute sim besides real life? Possibly - assuming we aren't dead by the end of year or brainwashed by the government or enslaved by the Koreans.

Currently the only true sim is read life. That is unless there's some game I don't know of developed in a secret lab in the heart of Russia.

That being over - I don't see the point of no ABS, especially when comes down to the argument of realism. GT5 - admittingly - is not a sim, even with all the current gizmos and gyros. Why you'd want to lock up your brakes? That only causes more unnecessary crashes and penalties.

Simple fix? ABS 1. But, even then, everyone gets their panties in a bunch and yells "OMG WTF ABS IS FOR NOOBIES NAR NAR NAR!!!!" Why? I don't know. I know how it feels without ABS (both in real life and in game). Main reason behind ABS 1 is because ABS 0 locks up too easily (especially without any brake adjustments). It's even worse on a pad - which most GT5er's use. Restricting ABS - again - only causes unnecessary crashes and penalties. Why you'd want that - I don't know.

TD;DR: No such thing as a "gaming sim". Only sim is real life. ABS requires you to be god if you use a pad. Still don't understand the rage behind ABS - even when set to ABS 1.


BTW- iPod crashed on me halfway into writing, so I'm a bit pissy at having to write half of my post again.

 

[OK8]

What most people don't seem to understand is accelerating, cornering and braking are all elements of racing. You need to do all of these well in order to be competitive.

Having TC on means you don't have to be good at accelerating.

Having SFR on or ASM on (don't know what these things do, never tried them) means you don't have to be good at cornering.

Having ABS on means you don't have to be good at braking.

If you have ABS on, you'll look for your braking point and mash the pedal to the floor. Do this 10 times over and you'll always pull up in the same distance. There is no skill involved here. You can't fail this. One element of the three is then completely moot.

Also braking in different places like at crests when the car goes light, mid air, wet conditions or gravel are all things you never have to think about when you have ABS at 1.

 

[Short Bus]

What most people don't seem to understand is: accelerating, cornering and braking are all elements of racing. You need to do all of these well in order to be competitive.

Having TC on means you don't have to be good at accelerating.

Having SFR on or ASM on (don't know what these things do, never tried them) means you don't have to be good at cornering.

Having ABS on means you don't have to be good at braking.

If you have ABS on, you'll look for your braking point and mash the pedal to the floor. Do this 10 times over and you'll always pull up in the same distance. There is no skill involved here. You can't fail this.

Sure, but what if you're type who isn't playing this game for the "car control" aspect of it? What if you're playing it because you enjoy focusing on, and learning different race tracks. In that case, having those things on can eliminate distractions.

Because lets be honest, you're not going to train anybody on how to actually modulate the brakes in a real car using Gran Turismo. But you can use it to hone your skills at breaking down and learning the fastest way around a race track.

If anything, that's what GT does best, is simulate tracks in great detail. Where it isn't so good is accurately modeling the behavior of a car. It gets by, but it's the game's weak spot.

 

[OK8]

Sure, but what if you're type who isn't playing this game for the "car control" aspect of it? What if you're playing it because you enjoy focusing on, and learning different race tracks. In that case, having those things on can eliminate distractions.

Because lets be honest, you're not going to train anybody on how to actually modulate the brakes in a real car using Gran Turismo. But you can use it to hone your skills at breaking down and learning the fastest way around a race track.

If anything, that's what GT does best, is simulate tracks in great detail. Where it isn't so good is accurately modeling the behavior of a car. It gets by, but it's the game's weak spot.

You've said this many times already, you don't aim for a realistic experience out of this game. Why are you still posting in this thread is beyond me.

If you're focusing on learning different tracks you might aswell have all aids on or just look at b-spec bob going around them.

 

[Kwicko]

Actually, ABS systems are not mandatory in the U.S., even today. My '90 CRX-Si does not have ABS of any sort, nor does my '91 CRX DX. In fact, it was not even offered as an option on that car. My '91 Accord didn't have it either.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Research/Light+Vehicle+Brake+Systems

I have gone through all of these vehicles extensively, rebuilt engines in them, replaced every moving part in the braking and suspension systems (more than once in some cases), and I can assure you that these vehicles absolutely did not have ABS systems.

Hell, it's probably a plus that the CRX even has power-assisted brakes!

 

[Short Bus]

You've said this many times already, you don't aim for a realistic experience out of this game. Why are you still posting in this thread is beyond me.

If you're focusing on learning different tracks you might aswell have all aids on or just look at b-spec bob going around them.

Because people keep posting nonsense like you're not good at braking if you use ABS.

Go turn a wheel in a real car on a real track and come back to me and say that second part with a straight face.

*edit* - lets just boil this game down to the single point of it's existence...... getting around a track in the fastest time possible. If one can do so and chooses to use the aids, they're better at the game than the next person, even if that person chooses to do so without aids because they feel that their experience is enhanced by not using them.

If you choose to set up a server and constrain the people who join it to certain settings, that's great, you can see who's best without them. But that doesn't mean that you're actually better at the game than anybody else (aside from the people you beat on your server under the specific set of circumstances you created).

 

[OK8]

Because people keep posting nonsense like you're not good at braking if you use ABS.

Go turn a wheel in a real car on a real track and come back to me and say that second part with a straight face.

I don't understand any of this. After a certain very small learning curve (braking points), you can't be bad at braking if you have ABS on since you don't have to do anything. Just step on the pedal.

Sure there's trail braking and general speed control through a series of corners but even here it's impossible to make a mistake in the actual process of braking.

Given that you arrogantly order me to go to a track before posting I assume you've been trackdriving yourself. Did you mash your foot on the brakes at 100% pressure at the braking point each lap? Doesn't quite work like that does it?

Real life has nothing to do with this anyway since the ABS in GT5 is nothing like real life ABS systems.

*edit* - lets just boil this game down to the single point of it's existence...... getting around a track in the fastest time possible. If one can do so and chooses to use the aids, they're better at the game than the next person, even if that person chooses to do so without aids because they feel that their experience is enhanced by not using them.

If you choose to set up a server and constrain the people who join it to certain settings, that's great, you can see who's best without them. But that doesn't mean that you're actually better at the game than anybody else (aside from the people you beat on your server under the specific set of circumstances you created).

Sure I can agree to some extent on this, but let's compare this to a single player game.

If a player beats the game with an easier difficulty gaining a higher score than a player who beats the game with the hardest difficulty, who is the better player in the end?

I guess it's a matter of opinion.

 

[Short Bus]

I don't understand any of this. After a certain very small learning curve (braking points), you can't be bad at braking if you have ABS on since you don't have to do anything. Just step on the pedal.

Sure there's trail braking and general speed control through a series of corners but even here it's impossible to make a mistake in the process of braking.

Given that you arrogantly order me to go to a track before posting I assume you've been trackdriving yourself. Did you mash your foot on the brakes at 100% pressure at the braking point each lap? Doesn't quite work like that does it?

Real life has nothing to do with this anyway since the ABS in GT5 is nothing like real life ABS systems.

Arrogant? Who's the one telling others how they should play the game for you to consider them good at it?

My comment wasn't out of arrogance, it's just a simple fact. You can only learn so much about driving around a track by watching others do it.

I'd like to drop the pointed part of the discussion, if we can do that.

Sure I can agree to some extent on this, but let's compare this to a single player game.

If a player beats the game with an easier difficulty gaining a higher score than a player who beats the game with the hardest difficulty, who is the better player in the end?

I guess it's a matter of opinion.

Lets go with this, because you're onto a good idea...

I desperately wish PD would implement some sort of difficulty system so that the single player wasn't so inherently easy. Yes, one can adjust their car/settings/etc to get an appropriate level of difficulty for a given race, but in many cases this is a matter of trial and error because the game doesn't really tell you right up front what is or is not difficult.

But as it stands, the only "score" we can use for comparison is lap times, which is really all that matters on a race track anyway. So in a race with a lack of specific regulations, the fastest lap time is always the greatest display of overall skill (driving skill, car setup skill, etc). After all, these driver aids are just other ways in which we can tune the behavior of our cars, because if you go overboard the car can easily be made to be slower.

 

[OK8]

I'm not trying to tell anyone anything about how to play this game. If you get enjoyment about going around a track with racing softs and all aids cranked to the max, sure go ahead, doesn't bother me a bit because I never race in rooms with no regulations.

What my problem with ABS is, is the fact that it takes a fundamental element completely out of the game. That was the point I was trying to make, people keep saying ABS isn't an aid or it doesn't really do anything, but braking isn't about pushing the pedal as hard as you can at the right moment.

At Nordschleife at Pflanzgarten I, at the dip you often jump a bit. With ABS 1 you don't even have to think about that because you can just floor the pedal before the dip and nothing will happen (you'll jump with 100% brakes on but that has no effect on your lap).

At Flugplatz it's the same thing. With a very fast car (Yellowbird with turbo upgrade for example) your braking point is slightly before the top of the crest. How do you brake? With ABS you'll floor the pedal.

What if it rains? Floor the pedal. What about gravel tracks? Floor the pedal.

Braking battle with someone? Wait for your braking point, floor the pedal and hope he floored his a fraction of a second earlier.

Without ABS sometimes you even have to think about how you come off the brakes when the car is unstable after hard braking. You can't just lift off your foot in one swift motion and turn in (in fact, with ABS 1 you can actually turn in quite well while still holding full brake pressure). These are all the things that are 'disabled' for people who keep ABS at 1 and that's my point.

Now as PD finally made it possible to restrict ABS in rooms I don't have to care anymore. I can host rooms with ABS restricted and people who race there are all racing at the same difficulty setting. So in that sense there's actually no point in writing all this but all I'm trying to say is braking as a concept is in 'simplified mode' when you enable ABS. If you don't have a problem with that, I don't care. Whatever the room, I always race with ABS 0.

 

[CSLACR]

Having TC on means you don't have to be AS good at accelerating.

Having SFR on or ASM on (don't know what these things do, never tried them) means you don't have to be AS good at cornering.

BTW, ASM greatly slows you down. Odd you're commenting on them if you've never used them. GTR seasonal TT? License tests? Surely at some point you've used SRF, funny you didn't know though.

Having ABS on means you don't have to be AS good at braking.

Fixed. 👍

 

[JDMKING13]

I'm not trying to tell anyone anything about how to play this game. If you get enjoyment about going around a track with racing softs and all aids cranked to the max, sure go ahead, doesn't bother me a bit because I never race in rooms with no regulations.

What my problem with ABS is, is the fact that it takes a fundamental element completely out of the game. That was the point I was trying to make, people keep saying ABS isn't an aid or it doesn't really do anything, but braking isn't about pushing the pedal as hard as you can at the right moment.

At Nordschleife at Pflanzgarten I, at the dip you often jump a bit. With ABS 1 you don't even have to think about that because you can just floor the pedal before the dip and nothing will happen (you'll jump with 100% brakes on but that has no effect on your lap).

At Flugplatz it's the same thing. With a very fast car (Yellowbird with turbo upgrade for example) your braking point is slightly before the top of the crest. How do you brake? With ABS you'll floor the pedal.

What if it rains? Floor the pedal. What about gravel tracks? Floor the pedal.

Braking battle with someone? Wait for your braking point, floor the pedal and hope he floored his a fraction of a second earlier.

Without ABS sometimes you even have to think about how you come off the brakes when the car is unstable after hard braking. You can't just lift off your foot in one swift motion and turn in (in fact, with ABS 1 you can actually turn in quite well while still holding full brake pressure). These are all the things that are 'disabled' for people who keep ABS at 1 and that's my point.

Now as PD finally made it possible to restrict ABS in rooms I don't have to care anymore. I can host rooms with ABS restricted and people who race there are all racing at the same difficulty setting. So in that sense there's actually no point in writing all this but all I'm trying to say is braking as a concept is in 'simplified mode' when you enable ABS. If you don't have a problem with that, I don't care. Whatever the room, I always race with ABS 0.

I agree with this man 100%. I would never tell people how to play their GT5, however If your looking to get the realistic aspect of braking ABS1 will kill it. I like the fact of how you explained the aspect of coming of the brake pedal. With sorry technique you can disturb the cars balance resulting with the rear end breaking out on you. Nice post man. 👍

 

[MrGrado]

ABS:1 IS for noobs but that's okay, most GT5 players are noobs.

ABS:0 is more fun and more pro. I can use ABS:0 with wheel or pad and with brake settings in the order of 7/7 and not 4/1.

I have been using ABS:0 consistently for well over 6 months and I know that my driving technique under brakes has improved and my tunes may give improved performance while braking, or at the very least, they may allow for increased control under brakes.

I believe that any advanced driver using ABS:1 would benefit from learning to use ABS:0 for an extended period because your technique has to improve if you have no idea how to modulate the brakes. If/when you use ABS:1 after learning about braking your lap times will have improved. Having the skill to drive with no aids and the option of using aids is like having an ace up you sleeve for driving competitively.

Learning to drive without ABS takes some practice and it will initially feel strange and inferior but I believe that anyone who sticks it out will feel like a hero when they figure it out and benefit from becoming a better driver.

No ABS might be a disadvantage to lap speed and especially at certain corners of some tracks, like braking from high speed on a slippery downhill slope, over bumps and into a turn at Nurbergring.

 

[zevehcj]

I've been playing (DS3 user) GT5 with ABS off since day one after my very first race. I found the game extremely easy with ABS on 1 so off it went. I thought I was going to have a disadvantage online but I was proven wrong. I've won many races, lost many races and had a lot of close finishes. One thing I noticed while watching many online replays is that I was the only one that never slammed the brakes and braked late. This, I believe, is why many people don't play with ABS off because while playing with it on, they've gotten those bad habits (slamming the brakes/late braking) then when they try ABS off, its really hard for them. I would like to end by saying that it isn't impossible to play with it off. Just adjust your braking point, brake in a straight line and most importantly don't slam the brakes. Also, you'll have 100% control of your brakes (well atleast for me it feels that way after I accidentally left it on in a online race and noticed how I couldn't make the car brake how I wanted it to brake).