Whats your favourite FF Hatch in your garage?

[barryl85]

Now for the rebutle.

While there may be archived wins of FWD vs RWD, look at the cars in quesiton. You're taking a featherweight Mini and putting it against a tank. Had it been two cars, equal weight and power, one being FWD the other RWD, (whether it have been two Falcons or two Minis), the RWD would have a performance advantage.

Again this is incorrect, i would agree with this point in the most majority of races but refering to what Scaff has pointed out!

The British Touring Car Championship runs with a mix of mainly FWD cars, but with some RWD cars thrown in as well. The dominant car last year? The Integra Type R, in fact the BTTC has over the years run with a wide mix of drive types, yet FWD has never proven to be the issue you suggest, even when outputs easily topped 300 bhp during the Super Touring days of the '90s.

So all cars have almost the same power to weight ratio but an FF car has dominated even with equal FR cars in the field.

Now to my favourite FF hatch in GT4

There is alot of ones to choose from but my clear favourite is the;

Honda Gathers Drider Civic Race Car ( ' 98 )

Such a fun car to drive, differs slightly with the EK9 even though it has a similar setup!

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Let's put it bluntly: The handling quirks of FF will be highly overrated by anybody who uses a video game (GT4) as their "source" for how cars handle.
FF's can also finish a 40 lap race without changing tires.
FF is better than RWD, in extremely tight corners.
And in high-speed corners, where tire spin is not a factor.

who cares? they're both fun.

 

[barryl85]

Let's put it bluntly: The handling quirks of FF will be highly overrated by anybody who uses a video game (GT4) as their "source" for how cars handle.

who cares? they're both fun.

I agree on the who cares part as they are both fun!

But i have always thought that video games (especially GT4) with the realism - degrades the handling of FF cars and speed too! All FF cars seem slow and slugish in GT4 no matter how i tuned them, which took the fun out of them!

Anyone else think the same?

 

[Supra155605]

The yellow spoon Honda Civic.

@Guy above me, that's because 4wd and rwd can do anything front wheel can, except for a front wheel burnout which looks stupid.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

The yellow spoon Honda Civic.

@Guy above me, that's because 4wd and rwd can do anything front wheel can, except for a front wheel burnout which looks stupid.

except turn as sharp....and one cant get the traction/drivability in snow/ice, or even really water....

here's the thing, take a FF car, and a FR car, give both 300HP on 2500LBS, as race cars. But wait, that's not a fair comparison, because part of the advantage (one of the only) of FF, is that it weighs less, and delivers more power to the wheels. so these races actually handicap FF cars, and they still win. at least the championship in numorous and various cups.

a real comparison? give 'em the exact same power at the crank, and make 'em weigh the same with their drivetrains removed.
this way FF gets it advantages, since we don't take FR's advantages away, now do we?

 

[The Driver]

VW Golf GTi Mk V would have to be the best all-round hatch in my garage (I love the Cooper S but it's too slow, the Alfa 147 GTA is very fast, but it understeers way too much for my liking).

 

[skoda_norman]

hmm, i really enjoy driving my Peugeot 106 GTI and Fiat Panda - they are great. not huge ammounts of power, but nice little fun cars, however, i can just drive this car forever and always smile..

Honda Civic Type R
its the shape that has only just been replaced, i bought it brand new from Honda and its white...?

I've modded it to the extent of a racing exhaust and chip, so its only pushing maybe 220bhp, but geez, its fantastic. the engine is high revving and powerful, and the handling is reliable while fun and i sometimes think that in reality it'd be copping a rear wheel...

great car, not used it in a while, i'll have to get some pics.

 

[Metar]

Favorite? Peogeut 106, Alfa 147 and that Fiat Panda, in that order. Light, fun, Good-lookin'. Maybe a little weak, but it's about favorite, not fastest. And favorite, in my case, depends on that 'fun factor' - FF .

 

[Duke]

except turn as sharp....and one cant get the traction/drivability in snow/ice, or even really water....

here's the thing, take a FF car, and a FR car, give both 300HP on 2500LBS, as race cars. But wait, that's not a fair comparison, because part of the advantage (one of the only) of FF, is that it weighs less, and delivers more power to the wheels. so these races actually handicap FF cars, and they still win. at least the championship in numorous and various cups.

a real comparison? give 'em the exact same power at the crank, and make 'em weigh the same with their drivetrains removed.
this way FF gets it advantages, since we don't take FR's advantages away, now do we?

Ummm, you've got a few things quite wrong in this post. No disrespect intended.

1) FWD cars can turn no more sharply than RWD cars. In fact, there are two reasons why they can't turn as sharply: traction, and steering geometry. Know anything about the traction circle? If you're using up a certain amount of your traction vector accelerating, then that by definition reduces the amount of traction you can apply to turning. Also, having driveshafts complicating the front end geometry often means that you cannot get as much steering lock in, particularly under compression or extension, without binding.

2) FWD cars do not deliver more power to the wheels than RWD cars. The simple physics of weight transfer under acceleration fights against that. FWD drag racers have to go through all kinds of calisthenics to overcome that issue. RWD guys just have to floor it.

3) The only reason FWD cars are any better under low-traction conditions is that they are typically noseheavy, which helps add traction. They are also somewhat more forgiving. But to an experienced driver, well-balanced RWD car is no harder to drive quickly under poor conditions than an FWD car is.

I will also state that the touring car analogies are not exactly accurate. Typically, FWD race cars are given more allowable horsepower or lighter minimum weights in order to compensate for their disadvantages.

I've got nothing against FWD cars at all - see my posts earlier in this thread - but I do want to clear up some of the misconceptions above.

 

[Levi086]

So to put it bluntly - RWD cars are, overall, superior than FWD cars in world circuits and medium/large circuits such as Fuji and Suzuka, right ?

I'm trying to race the first championship in the Japan section with a TRD Celica and it's killing me especially in the fuji straight.

Less power (by around a quarter less than my opposition), normal weight, and yet I only get 150 points.

Also, the front tyres seem to wear much more quickly. I am aware that it is because it's an FWD, but is there anything I could do to overcome this issue (at least partially)? Yes I am having understeer and tyre slippage in 2nd gear but I also think it's the FWD to blame too.

4WD is also giving me a hard time balancing it, so I think I'll be going to a less powered RWD, I simply got used to that drive.

 

[Supra897]

Focus SVT, followed by the RS, then the EP CTR.

Also, the front tyres seem to wear much more quickly. I am aware that it is because it's an FWD, but is there anything I could do to overcome this issue (at least partially)? Yes I am having understeer and tyre slippage in 2nd gear but I also think it's the FWD to blame too.

4WD is also giving me a hard time balancing it, so I think I'll be going to a less powered RWD, I simply got used to that drive.

FWD's best friend is throttle control. Trust me, pedal to the metal doesn't produce fastest lap times (especially in FF).

2) FWD cars do not deliver more power to the wheels than RWD cars. The simple physics of weight transfer under acceleration fights against that. FWD drag racers have to go through all kinds of calisthenics to overcome that issue. RWD guys just have to floor it.

3) The only reason FWD cars are any better under low-traction conditions is that they are typically noseheavy, which helps add traction. They are also somewhat more forgiving. But to an experienced driver, well-balanced RWD car is no harder to drive quickly under poor conditions than an FWD car is.

2) FWD don't lose as much power from the crank to the wheels as RWD. Average loss for FWD is 12% while RWD is about 18%.

3) An RWD car will always be harder to drive than an FWD car in poor conditions (like you said, a FWD drivetrains is MUCH more forgivable). An experienced driver can just cope with it much better.

 

[noobie 4 ever]

orignally posted by scaff
Only one slight problem with that, the Clio V6 is a mid engined rear wheel drive car

Crap i 4got srry

 

[niky]

What Duke meant still holds. An FF car has less transmission losses, yes, but more losses due to lack of traction. Take it from someone who's tried in vain to get the power down out of a corner in his FF car on track.

But knowing a lot of guys who've driven to the absolute limits of outrageousness on the road (whether drunk or otherwise), I'd have to say that FWD cars are easier to drive at the limit. Just hit the brakes when you understeer and hit the gas at any other time (just like AWD, only much slower... ). Doesn't make them any faster, though, nor are they immune to snap-oversteer under heavy braking at high speeds or in a turn... where they're just as dangerous and unpredictable as any other car.

The tire problem is partly due to clutch modulation simulation in GT4. In other words, GT4, won't let the clutch out until you've got power going through. It seems to me that this point is well-judged for some vehicles, but on FFs, you want the clutch to bite a bit sooner than it does.

It also seems that wheelspin and its relation to torque are out of whack. I've never driven a 170 hp car that would spin its tires through the entire 1st gear in real-life. But then, this is probably also due to the GT4 engine feathering the clutch to provide maximum power instead of maximum traction.

Controllable with throttle modulation, yes. But it's funny to see a car with almost no torque laying down rubber when you floor it from a 5 mph roll, when in real life, the engine will bog a little and then climb up to speed smoothly. The simulated clutch just plain sucks.

 

[Supra897]

What Duke meant still holds. An FF car has less transmission losses, yes, but more losses due to lack of traction. Take it from someone who's tried in vain to get the power down out of a corner in his FF car on track.

You're preaching to the choir here man, lol. Oh, and I meant less powertrain loss overall (I know an RWD/AWD can put more power to the ground in a corner).

 

[Tornado]

This caught my attention:

Why is there no such thing is a PREMIUM or EXOTIC FWD CAR?

Unfortunately, there is:

And, unless I'm mistaken, it's been rumored to handle just as well as any BMW 3-series.

The tire problem is partly due to clutch modulation simulation in GT4. In other words, GT4, won't let the clutch out until you've got power going through. It seems to me that this point is well-judged for some vehicles, but on FFs, you want the clutch to bite a bit sooner than it does.

How much does that effect? Does it only affect acceleration, or does it affect tire wear and handling too. Nothing too serious, but I find it rather odd and a little distressing that an 8 year-old PC sim with a physics engine designed around one single, specific 450 BHP RWD car models FWD car physics better than "The Real Driving Simulator."

 

[niky]

It affects everything. Tire wear is exaggerated because there is no such thing as a progressive or gentle launch in GT4. Car handling depends in part on being able to keep the car stable under power. But then again, maybe I'll change my tune once I get a DFP and get more time on one. (the throttle on the old Logitech DF is just too short). Throttle on any sim is just too abrupt and lacking in progression.

Besides that and the lack of wheel hop and its associated corollaries (limited snap-oversteer conditions), I'm comfortable with GT4. I'm actually even beginning to warm up to the rally mode, after spending some time pushing at 10/10ths on the dirt. In certain conditions, it feels almost like the real thing.

Errh... which 8-year old sim, Toro?

Oh, if we're only talking drivetrain losses, then the best cars just have to be the supers and the RRs.

 

[Scaff]

And, unless I'm mistaken, it's been rumored to handle just as well as any BMW 3-series.

Having driven both, while the 156 is a fine handling FWD car it is no match for the same generation of 3-series. I'd personally argue that the Renaultsport Clio is a much better handling FWD car.

Recent generations of Alfa's have handling charcteristics that start to get very personal, myself I'm not the biggest fan of them in that regard.

Its engine and design wise that they stand out (just don't mention reliability or the dealer network).

However your point on it being a premium FWD car is well made, people forget that non-quattro Audis are also FWD.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

Errh... which 8-year old sim, Toro?

Viper Racing. With the "Toyota Celica GT-S by Stecki" add-on car. When the physics are set to simulation mode and you have a good PC wheel, the car will understeer only when you are on the throttle, and if you hit the brakes too hard while turned at more than(roughly) 30 degrees, the rear end will even pop out a little. Also unlike GT4, the car will not continue to understeer (well, not as much) when you let off of the gas.
Also quite fun is the DeLorean car, because that has realistic Porsche-type driving (if the rear comes around and you touch the brakes, you will be looking in the direction you were coming from).

 

[niky]

Hmmm... got to look that up. I'm divided as to how to proceed from GT4. I've got a new computer coming, half to be paid by the office, half by me... and if I get what I want (3 GHz and 1GB DDR + toys), I might just as well get me a Logitech DFX and a couple of PC Sims, instead.

 

[Tornado]

It doesn't really require much in the way of system specs, and you have to patch it like hell to get it to work on anything that is not Windows 98 (It will work on XP with the newest patch), but it is so worth it.
The A.I. in the game is so perfect it's scary. They crash into each other racing for position, they react to you (like if you try to drive backwards towards them, they will jab the brakes and slide their cars to avoid you), they sometimes crash into the stuff in the scenery (I still think it's cool when they fishtail each other out of the way into things like signs). The damage engine is a little odd in some spots (and sadly, only breaking your suspension will stop you car from running, but anything else will affect aerodynamics), but every crash causes different damage.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Ummm, you've got a few things quite wrong in this post. No disrespect intended.

1) FWD cars can turn no more sharply than RWD cars. In fact, there are two reasons why they can't turn as sharply: traction, and steering geometry. Know anything about the traction circle? If you're using up a certain amount of your traction vector accelerating, then that by definition reduces the amount of traction you can apply to turning. Also, having driveshafts complicating the front end geometry often means that you cannot get as much steering lock in, particularly under compression or extension, without binding..

my point is FF cars almost always have better turning radius's(spell?) granted, that may be from skinnier tires, but stock for stock, they most always do.

2) FWD cars do not deliver more power to the wheels than RWD cars. The simple physics of weight transfer under acceleration fights against that. FWD drag racers have to go through all kinds of calisthenics to overcome that issue. RWD guys just have to floor it..

well, more power to the wheels, they do deliver. Drivetrain losses. FF has less, because it has less drivetrain weight, (by a mile) and less loops, curves and turns, FF cars almost always deliver a higher percentage, to the wheels, stock, or modified, than RWD.
I'm certainly not saying they get better grip, but drivetrain loss is typically,as follows: FF 12%, RWD 15%, 4WD 18-20%

3) The only reason FWD cars are any better under low-traction conditions is that they are typically noseheavy, which helps add traction. They are also somewhat more forgiving. But to an experienced driver, well-balanced RWD car is no harder to drive quickly under poor conditions than an FWD car is..

well, yes and no.
FF is better in snow, and ice, (sometimes wet) because under these conditions, you cant accel fast enough to transfer weight, efficiently, therefore, it's the reverse of dry, the FF actually has more weight on the drive wheels, than RWD, because the weight isnt shifting.
as far as RWD being driven faster,(in poor conditions) that'll completley depend on: Suspension, weight distribution, tires, and just how bad the conditions are.

I will also state that the touring car analogies are not exactly accurate. Typically, FWD race cars are given more allowable horsepower or lighter minimum weights in order to compensate for their disadvantages..

I'm just quoting what Scaff said, and C&D, I have an old one June '03

RSX-S - FF - 246HP - 2400LBS
Lexus IS 300 - FR - 274HP - 2800LBS
Civic Type R - FF - 235HP - 2400LBS
Mazda Protege - FF - 240HP - 2350LBS
BMW 325i - 260HP - FR - 2700LBS

the RSX's won that year, I believe, but don't quote me on that. I do know they won one race, by miles, I got to watch that one.
Granted, this is only 1 series, but, still..
Series: SCCA Speed World Challenge

I've got nothing against FWD cars at all - see my posts earlier in this thread - but I do want to clear up some of the misconceptions above.

Don't worry, I won't take you out of context

It also seems that wheelspin and its relation to torque are out of whack. I've never driven a 170 hp car that would spin its tires through the entire 1st gear in real-life. But then, this is probably also due to the GT4 engine feathering the clutch to provide maximum power instead of maximum traction.

You havent? I've driven, ummm, 5.
89 Olds Calais - 160HP
98 Grand-Am - 150HP
90&91 Olds Calais 442 - 180/190HP
03 Civic EX - 140HP(ish)

the problem with GT4, is that it's unavoidable, and out of those 5 cars I drove, only the higher powered, older Calais were hard to stop, but even those, could grip and go, full-throttle, without more than a few squeaks, and also, stab and dump at 1500rpm, do a burnout. - whatever your wishes

A massivly overlooked flaw in PD's so called "physics engine" is how quickly a car can move while spinning it's tires. I've seen 2 things, which CANNOT be replicated in GT4, without slicks.
A FR Firebird - mash throttle, smoke tires, 0-30:2.0
a FF Grand-Am, same as above 0-30: 2.3
in gt4, even the best FF's struggle for less than 3.2
it's laughable

 

[niky]

What I mean is spin its tires through the entire first gear from a standing start, no torque braking.

And I'm talking about low torque motors with 170, my bad for not being specific.

And actually, the FF cars are given a weight advantage in the example you mentioned. What's not mentioned is the concessions also given to the Protege in terms of custom parts because its engine and drivetrain aren't as well developed or durable as the other cars in the field... and they still eat through motors like crazy.

The thing about turning radii is that it's so dependent upon chassis design that it's often hard to make a 1:1 comparison.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

What I mean is spin its tires through the entire first gear from a standing start, no torque braking.

can't torque brake a manual. (no, I was'nt talking revving and dumping either)

And I'm talking about low torque motors with 170, my bad for not being specific. .

now you're talkin

And actually, the FF cars are given a weight advantage in the example you mentioned. What's not mentioned is the concessions also given to the Protege in terms of custom parts because its engine and drivetrain aren't as well developed or durable as the other cars in the field... and they still eat through motors like crazy.

okay, didnt you notice they also had less power?
honestly, without offense, did you miss that, or neglect it with an agenda?
here are the pwr/wt ratios
RSX 9.76
Protege 9.79
Civic 10.21
325i 10.38
Lexus 10.22
so while some are nearly identical, generally here, FF has a slight advantage.
certainly not enough to overcompensate the massive shortfalling of FWD some people describe.
Also, remember that of 2 cars, with the same pwr/wt ratio, if one has higher power and weight, it will be faster, so we're probably looking at cars with almost, if not, identical acceleration
but are these numbers at the wheels? anybody know?

P.S. yes, the Protege was the only car without stock engine internals, as it's factory engine, was, well, crap.
so they allowed a race motor, which each Mazda used 3 of, over a season, at least that's what was expected/allowed.

 

[niky]

I didn't ignore it. I just didn't read much into it. Put into PWR numbers... oops, now I see it.

But then, those numbers are estimates, as some people believe that the Proteges had more. But then again, it's a good point. Conceded. I don't have an agenda mind, when I don't take note of something, I genuinely actually miss it. I am pro-FF, I just like to keep it in perspective.

RE: crap, I know what you mean. I've got two friends who've already blown their motors at under 40k miles. They're just too much fun to drive. Runner's legs, banker's heart. Stretch those legs far enough and you'll give them a heart attack.

RE: torque-braking. Again, my bad, should be torque-braking or clutch-slipping. It's just the sheer inability to actually bog your engine by letting out the clutch early in GT4 that makes launches such a nightmare. The pre-programmed clutch-release point or stall-point for GT4 is just too high for street tires on some cars... on other (high-power cars), it's oddly low... and you will bog unless you torque brake (hold brakes and gas at the same time)... not a realistic way to do it, but the closest you can get to dumping the clutch in GT4.