Where did PD go Wrong?

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118
United States
United States
El-Cholo
PD definitely went wrong on the whole concept of getting money. Why don't the Seasonal Events give us 1 million for gold like they used to? Right they want us to buy the stupid ass micro-transactions which I believe shouldn't even exist! I just want better pay for Online races, Shuffle Racing, Random option under Course Vote, and all together more ways to get money fast without having to grind the damn red bull races.
I tell you how bad it was for me on GT 5 I only owned three $20 Million cars and thats because I didn't have the time to play as much as I would like because of the children why do they make it so hard to make money on the game is crazy.

GT 6 hands out next to nothing in money, I spend most of my time racing in circles over and over just to make money it's so difficult to keep moving up into the game with no cash, and now they want to charge you $59.99 for $7 & 1/2 million in game credits online that's the same amount for the stinking game!! At this rate I may be LUCKY to only own one $20 million car this time around can anyone say......
"CASH COW" it so RIDICULOUS.
 
1,950
Poland
GMT+2
pyrates2000
I tell you how bad it was for me on GT 5 I only owned three $20 Million cars and thats because I didn't have the time to play as much as I would like because of the children why do they make it so hard to make money on the game is crazy.

GT 6 hands out next to nothing in money, I spend most of my time racing in circles over and over just to make money it's so difficult to keep moving up into the game with no cash, and now they want to charge you $59.99 for $7 & 1/2 million in game credits online that's the same amount for the stinking game!! At this rate I may be LUCKY to only own one $20 million car this time around can anyone say......
"CASH COW" it so RIDICULOUS.

Yeah the best thing about pre-ordering the game was that I could take advantage of the money glitch.
 
1,483
United States
US
I tell you how bad it was for me on GT 5 I only owned three $20 Million cars and thats because I didn't have the time to play as much as I would like because of the children why do they make it so hard to make money on the game is crazy.

GT 6 hands out next to nothing in money, I spend most of my time racing in circles over and over just to make money it's so difficult to keep moving up into the game with no cash, and now they want to charge you $59.99 for $7 & 1/2 million in game credits online that's the same amount for the stinking game!! At this rate I may be LUCKY to only own one $20 million car this time around can anyone say......
"CASH COW" it so RIDICULOUS.

I agree. I've sort of put the "game" on hold at the moment so I can grind for credits. At least the Red Bull races are interesting - I was losing my mind (or falling asleep at the wheel) doing Like The Wind at the test track. Still, we shouldn't have to do this. I, too, have limited time so I don't know when/if I'll ever get a 20 mil car. I still am trying to grind enough just to get a Shelby Daytona, and I want that car badly.
 
273
Italy
Italy
Where did they go wrong?
Well, probably they've biten more than they could swallow when the PS3 came out. They either overestimated the hardware, or themselves. Later on, they failed to reshape their intentions when they turned out to be unreachable. They've lost a lot of time and effort in the attempt to keep the intended technical standards, at the expense of other vital aspects of the gaming experience. On the other hand, Sony might have forced them to keep standard cars and other features for marketing reasons.
They should really have assumed the failure with GT5 and the past generation in a whole, and move on. They should have focused on the PS4, instead of, once again, wasting time and efforts just to deliver another unfinished, pretentious, underwhelming product. But, then again, it might have been Sony's marketing policy forcing them to do that.
But I'm kinda hopeful for the future. PD is a very solid software house, they have experience, they have a great vision, and they're probably going to shut a lot of mouths up on the PS4. That being said, they're gonna have to re-conquer me. I'm not buying blind anymore, sorry to say.
 
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1,190
Canada
Thornhill
polsixe
It's important to be able to map graphics onto cars, full stop.

If as a byproduct of that, some people have the chance to map anime stuff onto cars, then so be it. It's hardly a strike against the concept. Give people the opportunity to decorate cars as they wish, and they'll put whatever is attractive to them on it. Many will stick to racing liveries, simplistic designs, or plain colours of their choosing (must...make...Cherry Black...Shinka...). A few will do itasha and other "crazy" stuff.

That people would use a livery editor for artistic purposes is a GOOD thing. You might not like looking at it, but the player enjoyed making that livery. Fostering creativity is a great thing for a game to do.
Ok when explained that way. But I go with Itasha being creepiest fad, ever.
 
I think it's time to have a talk PD.

I really wanted to love you. I really do.
I've traded in my Sega Saturn for a Playstation because of you, bought a Playstation 2 because of you, bought a Playstation 3 because of you, all in hopes that with each passing year, you'll better yourself like you promised.

But alas, things have changed between us. I no longer see the spark in your eyes, i no longer see the game i grew up with, the game i fervently looked forward to playing after each school day and now after each work day. I no longer see the game i used to love. There is now just an empty hollowness where your fire used to be.

You promised me you'd make yourself better, you promised me you'll let go off your past mistakes, that you'll only improve as long as i gave you time. You promised......... you promised.........

Now all i see is a quiet dusty Playstation 3 sitting on the shelf where my hopes and dreams used to be.

I think now's the time, i'm gonna have to let you go. You promised... you promised!!!


Lets-break-up.jpg
 
I'm not buying blind anymore, sorry to say.

Bought GT1 on 5/18/1998 six days after the NA release and immediately fell in love with the game. Bought GT2 through GT5 blind as a result. Held off for a bit with GT6. I will need to be convinced that GT7 has addressed some of the lingering and new issues before I consider purchasing it. It saddens me to think that GT6 might be the end of the line for me with the series :(
 
6,318
United States
West Virginia
HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
I agree. I've sort of put the "game" on hold at the moment so I can grind for credits. At least the Red Bull races are interesting - I was losing my mind (or falling asleep at the wheel) doing Like The Wind at the test track. Still, we shouldn't have to do this. I, too, have limited time so I don't know when/if I'll ever get a 20 mil car. I still am trying to grind enough just to get a Shelby Daytona, and I want that car badly.

I could not bare to run LTW for credits, that one of SSRX is the most boring race in GT6. Nascar on Motegi is much more interesting and pays more. I did run that one a few times while tuning a Nascar. I have ran the Red Bull Jr quite a few times as well but mostly I was running the 550PP touring cars and the 20 Mile Willow springs races, not as much money but a lot more fun.
 

HBK

672
France
Toulouse
TheHBK
HBK Live
They should have focused on the PS4, instead of, once again, wasting time and efforts just to deliver another unfinished, pretentious, underwhelming product. But, then again, it might have been Sony's marketing policy forcing them to do that.
I don't think focusing on PS4 would have solved any issues.

I don't know who's to blame and in all honesty I just don't care. I simply judge a book after reading it.

GT5 already had a host of framerate issues (for example) yet they INCREASED the effective framebuffer resolution for GT6. And, SURPRISINGLY, the game has EVEN MORE framerate issues. Who would have guessed, right?

And it's just one of many, many points (standard cars anyone?).

I firmly believe they (PD) are stuck in some form of absurd numbers race (probably led by Sony obviously but I'm pretty sure PD fight this war pretty willingly if the previous games are any indication). They just viscerally need to overtake the competition on anything that can be measured by numbers one way or another (resolution, number of cars, number of tracks, number of SP modes and career "variety", day/night/weather, etc). And who cares if anything they add is actually half-assed, if not entirely irrelevant. They have bigger numbers at the back of the box.

They can claim 60fps even if it's clearly not by any reasonable standard, to go by that same example.

And the worst thing is, I don't really care about the "lies" and all the marketing fluff. I know how not to trust them in the first place. I just can't condone such inane game design anymore. Give me fun or give me death.

Up to GT4, GT's were fun. Heck even GT5 was fun to a degree.

But not anymore. GT6 is boring as hell.

Edit : To close some thoughts about a PS4 version. Of course the PS4 would run the current game flawlessly. But judging by the choices they made on the PS3, I'm pretty sure they will again try to push the boundaries with stuff like displaying 48 cars in race or displaying each car at LOD0 or add some fancy lighting effect to showcase the almighty PS4 power. Except even the almighty PS4 will then have a hard time maintaining such a game at 60 fps. Again.
 
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Tenacious D

GT5 Standard rapscallion
Premium
7,445
Tetsumura / GTP_Tetsu
Nigel Fox
HBK
Edit : To close some thoughts about a PS4 version. Of course the PS4 would run the current game flawlessly. But judging by the choices they made on the PS3, I'm pretty sure they will again try to push the boundaries with stuff like displaying 48 cars in race or displaying each car at LOD0 or add some fancy lighting effect to showcase the almighty PS4 power. Except even the almighty PS4 will then have a hard time maintaining such a game at 60 fps. Again.
And they should try. This will make 32 car races at night with full dynamic lighting run flawlessly.

Now as for the original question, what I think went wrong is the people in Polyphony were born Japanese. :D And this has resulted in two basic issues.

One, that Kaz is a typical Japanese employee who says "Yes, boss" to everything his superiors tell him. To an extent. The intelligent, crafty ones manage to persuade their superiors that they really wanted what he wants all along. Though this is to an extent too. There was no getting around being told to make GT5 3D. He had to do it, though I would have lobbied to make that an optional install, if that would have worked properly. Maybe it wouldn't, and he really did have no choice.

Two, Japanese think in alien ways. They love Pokemon and collectibles. They're infatuated with quirky ideas that westerners might never think of. So Japanese games, like their RPGs, have an appeal that western games don't. And GT5 has "Japanese game" written all over it. Now unfortunately, those kinds of elements just don't work well in a racing game. Collecting cars is one thing, but collecting helmets and horns?? Then there's the matter of the Museum Cards, which is a nice idea and all, but it unexpectedly clogged up the hard drive and there is no way to get rid of them. Even the curio-happy Japanese didn't seem wowed by this. And then there was the matter of the wretched XP system many of us despised (me), the Paint Shop with no paint of its own, Race Mod on all of 17 cars with a pretty lame livery in which you could paint all of ONE surface, a whole host of other things I can't remember, and... well, yuck to it all.

GT6 is in a very unusual predicament. Released just weeks after the hotly anticipated PS4, it's a last gen game trying to be relevant in a next gen market. To journalists and fans, it's still an amazing game, but to others it seems like warmed up leftovers. In the rush to be delivered before holiday sales were passed, it was released on schedule for the first time EVER, but with a lot of features yet to be implemented. And worse, SONY released it without fanfare (edit: yes, there was a huge party at Ronda, but again, pretty much covered online) and no real advertising, relying on net banners and magazine ads along with word of mouth.

But let's make it even worse. Rumor has it that SONY changed its collective mind when GT6 sales failed to explode, and the other racers like Drive Club and Project CARS were delayed. The result being that Kaz was given the green light - or ordered - to make GT7 for PS4 after all. ASAP. Wow. :lol: And so, it's possible that work on GT6 is being sacrificed in order to do as ordered, and make that GT7 they probably wanted to start with.

So SONY has created a lovely mess and left a lot of fans feeling betrayed, and leaving Kaz and the team to take the blame for it all. This is both a blessing and a curse for being the first party studio for a megacorp as strange as SONY. You can rely on all kinds of funding, but they have all the understanding and compassion of a mob boss. And with all the market savvy of a company forcing odd proprietary formats on their customers like Memory Sticks, when USB drives and micro SD cards are well established and cheap as chips.

Some things like the lack of damage are entirely PD's fault. I'm hoping that GT7 is that wonder GT we've all been waiting for, and I'm intending to work on a post detailing what I want GT7 to be, and how that would turn things around in a huge way.
 
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2,933
Canada
London, Ontario
voodoovaj
PD didn't "go wrong" anywhere. However, public companies and profits are a persuasive force.

Here is how a public company REALLY works. They do not makes decisions based directly on profits, but on share price and what they believe shareholders will do with information. They also do this with increased verve near the end of fiscal quarters.

So, for example, it would be very bad for the Sony's share price If GT6 were to miss Christmas. It would be just as bad for the share price for Sony to announced that GT6 might miss Christmas. Pulling features and releasing it on time has (potentially) positive effects on share price (FYI I didn't actually check the share prices - you guys can do that).

(as a point of interest go read about the hot water EA execs are in about the BF4 release to better understand)

All game companies work like this, if not all public companies. It is of paramount importance to get the game out for the quarter it is supposed to ship in at all costs. I get it. All I want is for them to finish it now and get all the features in there so I can continue enjoying my game.
 
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HBK

672
France
Toulouse
TheHBK
HBK Live
And they should try. This will make 32 car races at night with full dynamic lighting run flawlessly.
And I'm now convinced it won't. They will try to go for an increase in overall image quality (and they should definitely try), yet they will be pushing so much on the hardware (like those yummy yummy 32 car grids) that the game will still struggle to maintain 60 fps.

If they can't keep 60 fps on the PS3, then they most likely won't keep 60 fps on the PS4. Heck, the PS2 games ran better than the PS3 games for gods sake.

I just don't see why they would change their minds on how to tackle 60 fps as I seriously doubt this technicality was the reason for GT6's commercial failure.
 
1,950
Poland
GMT+2
pyrates2000
There is no evidence to suggest GT6 is a commercial failure.

Actually there is. VGChartz shows relative low sales numbers. Also the massive discounts so short after release show that sales are not what Sony expected. The sales are now an attempt to reach a critical user base for any paid DLC content to succeed.
 
2,993
Australia
Brisbane
jimipitbull
Actually there is. VGChartz shows relative low sales numbers. Also the massive discounts so short after release show that sales are not what Sony expected. The sales are now an attempt to reach a critical user base for any paid DLC content to succeed.

VGCharts is not evidence, and it does not include digital sales. All it shows is that it has sold less than GT5 3 months after release. And for most games, those sales figures would actually indicate commercial success.

VGCharts is not evidence of commercial success or failure.

The price drop could indicate that the break even point was reached.
 
1,950
Poland
GMT+2
pyrates2000
VGCharts is not evidence, and it does not include digital sales. All it shows is that it has sold less than GT5 3 months after release. And for most games, those sales figures would actually indicate commercial success.

VGCharts is not evidence of commercial success or failure.

The price drop could indicate that the break even point was reached.

It is the best evidence that we have. Sure it would be great success for many games not for GT.

You do not drop the price simply because the break even is met. Not so soon. That simply doesn't make sense. As you said yourself it is less successful than GT5 and its price wasn't dropped so soon IIRC. The only reason you drop the price this soon this significantly is because you need to reach a user base at all cost to make money with paid DLC or it simply won't be profitable.

This is much more logical form an economical point of view than discounting a game because Sony broke even. No company in the world says "Ok we got our investment back. Now have our product for free." Hell you don't even need any economical knowledge for this, open eyes and a common sense is enough.
 
2,993
Australia
Brisbane
jimipitbull
It is the best evidence that we have. Sure it would be great success for many games not for GT.

You do not drop the price simply because the break even is met. Not so soon. That simply doesn't make sense. As you said yourself it is less successful than GT5 and its price wasn't dropped so soon IIRC. The only reason you drop the price this soon this significantly is because you need to reach a user base at all cost to make money with paid DLC or it simply won't be profitable.

This is much more logical form an economical point of view than discounting a game because Sony broke even. No company in the world says "Ok we got our investment back. Now have our product for free." Hell you don't even need any economical knowledge for this, open eyes and a common sense is enough.

It's not evidence, so it can't be the best evidence we have.

Sony aren't giving it away for free.

Products are often discounted once the break even point is reached. Increasing sales by reducing cost can be more profitable.
 

NA

584
United States
Chicago
Moe Camel
This is also the first time I can recall where I haven't seen PD/Sony crowing about first month sales totals, like it's the end all, be all selling point.

Influx of new users is also much quieter than I've seen previous.

We have evidence. just not much of anything solid. What we don't have is proof.

We also don't have the long term data, which sometimes vindicates games after a slow start. We won't have that for quite some time.

So all we really have for sure is opinions and speculation, fueled by anecdotal accounts, and scant little confirmed evidence to support those opinions either way. The final judgment of success will probably end up being a hindsight 20/20 scenario, months, or even years from now.
 
1,950
Poland
GMT+2
pyrates2000
It's not evidence, so it can't be the best evidence we have.

Sony aren't giving it away for free.

Products are often discounted once the break even point is reached. Increasing sales by reducing cost can be more profitable.

It's not perfect evidence sure. If you don't like the word evidence, let's use indication. Hard copy sales numbers are still the bet indication that we have. I take it over your believes and assumptions any day of the week anyway. Rough numbers are still better than none. You can discount them but you shouldn't ignore their validity entirely.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
It is the best evidence that we have. Sure it would be great success for many games not for GT.

You do not drop the price simply because the break even is met. Not so soon. That simply doesn't make sense. As you said yourself it is less successful than GT5 and its price wasn't dropped so soon IIRC. The only reason you drop the price this soon this significantly is because you need to reach a user base at all cost to make money with paid DLC or it simply won't be profitable.

This is much more logical form an economical point of view than discounting a game because Sony broke even. No company in the world says "Ok we got our investment back. Now have our product for free." Hell you don't even need any economical knowledge for this, open eyes and a common sense is enough.
Correct, the notion of dramatically discounting a title because it reached breakeven is laughable. You charge whatever the market will bear, and if the game was still flying off the shelf at $60 it would still be $60. It's not meeting sales targets that's why the price is reduced, that's Business 101.
 
1,063
United States
Georgia
Netherlord
Correct, the notion of dramatically discounting a title because it reached breakeven is laughable. You charge whatever the market will bear, and if the game was still flying off the shelf at $60 it would still be $60. It's not meeting sales targets that's why the price is reduced, that's Business 101.

Yeah just saying I never saw GTA V get a discount to $39.99 here in the states so fast sooo.........They've long since met that break-even point I know too.

It's more laughable too that GT6 also got a price drop on Amazon to $35 don't know how long that's been going on.
 
11,214
United States
Chicago, iLL
GTP_Nismo
Correct, the notion of dramatically discounting a title because it reached breakeven is laughable. You charge whatever the market will bear, and if the game was still flying off the shelf at $60 it would still be $60. It's not meeting sales targets that's why the price is reduced, that's Business 101.
:lol:
The game is selling just fine at $60 but I don't want to make too much profit so let's lower the price by 33%.
 

HKS racer

(Banned)
4,802
I bet most of the people here saying "I will not buy blind" will buy Day One GT7 because of preorder bonus. No matter if GT7 will be a load of crap. You'll buy it regardless. They know you. A preorder bonus is enough for trick some weak minds.
 
2,993
Australia
Brisbane
jimipitbull
:lol:
The game is selling just fine at $60 but I don't want to make too much profit so let's lower the price by 33%.

The price drop at the retail level does not mean the price has dropped at a wholesale level. Sony could still be making the same amount per copy.
 
11,868
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
I bet most of the people here saying "I will not buy blind" will buy Day One GT7 because of preorder bonus. No matter if GT7 will be a load of crap. You'll buy it regardless. They know you. A preorder bonus is enough for trick some weak minds.

Maybe so. But each time they burn people a few more will decide to wait the next time. GT5 burned quite a few people who held off on purchasing, and some who are still holding off. I doubt those people were impressed by GT6, and there's more who bought GT6 early who likely won't for GT7.

The price drop at the retail level does not mean the price has dropped at a wholesale level. Sony could still be making the same amount per copy.

How do they enforce that then? Strongarm the retailers into taking a smaller cut of profits, just so that Sony can make more money? That sure sounds fair.

If I was a video game store I'd be pretty pissed off if that was the case, and I'd be more pissed off that the huge corporation was flexing it's muscle to make me serve it's agenda. If Sony's desperate enough to screw it's retailers just in order to move one game, it's the start of bad times.