Who else is not so concerned about damage?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Zheng1337
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Damage modelng = meh. Gentlemen let us use DiRT as an example. It is a great game an the damage modeling is impressive, but lets be honest, it does not make the game better or worse to have the car deformed. The only opportunity you have to witness the destruction is in replay mode. You see it, you say to yourself "ok cool" then you go back and try to NOT wreck. That's the point of racing is it not? to drive cleanly, to drive fast, and not bring the car back in a heaping pile. I find it much more gratifying to not hit anything beacause regardless of having damage or not if i hit a wall or slide into something unforgiving, it will certainly mean my times will be horrendous...i will really like to understand WHY damage is suach an issue...:indiff:

because it is visually appealing, it offers more gameplay and reflects realism better for simulation games (damaged cars behaves differently), but most importantly, because it "teaches" you not to make mistake, or rather, it reminds you that doing mistakes or being careless has [negative] consequences... ultimately stopping "wall riding", corner cutting, dirt driving and punting.
 
because it is visually appealing, it offers more gameplay and reflects realism better for simulation games (damaged cars behaves differently), but most importantly, because it "teaches" you not to make mistake, or rather, it reminds you that doing mistakes or being careless has [negative] consequences... ultimately stopping "wall riding", corner cutting, dirt driving and punting.

That being said, sliding and hitting a wall with damage modeling will have you end up with a destroyed vehicle. At the speeds at which most of us traverse these courses one mistake will definitey leave you with a twisted heap. What's the point of that? ok you made a mistake now look at the heap of metal you left behind? i dont need a destroyed vehicle to know i made a mistake.. But regardless everyone has an opinion, i just dont see the need for us have to wait antother year while they model damage into GT5. It is perfect as it is.
 
That being said, sliding and hitting a wall with damage modeling will have you end up with a destroyed vehicle. At the speeds at which most of us traverse these courses one mistake will definitey leave you with a twisted heap. What's the point of that? ok you made a mistake now look at the heap of metal you left behind? i dont need a destroyed vehicle to know i made a mistake.. But regardless everyone has an opinion, i just dont see the need for us have to wait antother year while they model damage into GT5. It is perfect as it is.
No it's not perfect. The game should teach you how to drive by reminding you that you shouldn't be making mistakes. Every racing game I can recall playing since like PGR2 has had damage in it. The way it is right with people just ramming you online and the ability to wallride and bounce off walls is very far from realistic.

If you have damage on full and you're driving the Nurburgring, you're going to think twice, maybe three times about taking that one corner flat out or something like that. I know I do when I drive the Nurb in Forza 2, especially in some of the faster cars. THAT's realistic. Not having to worry about consequences = unrealistic.
 
give me pitstops, tyrewear, full consumption! damage i don't care
 
No it's not perfect. The game should teach you how to drive by reminding you that you shouldn't be making mistakes. Every racing game I can recall playing since like PGR2 has had damage in it. The way it is right with people just ramming you online and the ability to wallride and bounce off walls is very far from realistic.

If you have damage on full and you're driving the Nurburgring, you're going to think twice, maybe three times about taking that one corner flat out or something like that. I know I do when I drive the Nurb in Forza 2, especially in some of the faster cars. THAT's realistic. Not having to worry about consequences = unrealistic.

respectfully, let me try to comprehend your reasoning.

1) People speak of wall riding but the only track it is prevalent is high speed ring.

2)Forza = Realistic? um no. There hasn't been a game on earth that realistically captures damage. hit anything at more than 50mph and your car is done. much less 120+

3)As for consequences: Let's say you take turn 1 at daytona road course balls out put the right rear in the grass and end up doing more 360's than microsoft. With or without damage you know you *****d up. why is damage so essential in knowing you did something wrong? Even on the N'ring you may think 3 time before taking a turn flat out but sometimes it is a necesarry evil. Sure your knuckles are white but how else would you do it without sacrificing precious tenths? The game is a bout speed gentlemen. Not a destruction derby.
 
Kinda off-topic, but on the note of damage... think we'll be seeing any footage of what Polyphony has been cooking up damage-wise at E3?
 
3)As for consequences: Let's say you take turn 1 at daytona road course balls out put the right rear in the grass and end up doing more 360's than microsoft. With or without damage you know you *****d up. why is damage so essential in knowing you did something wrong? Even on the N'ring you may think 3 time before taking a turn flat out but sometimes it is a necesarry evil. Sure your knuckles are white but how else would you do it without sacrificing precious tenths? The game is a bout speed gentlemen. Not a destruction derby.
Because there's a difference between knowing the worst that can happen is that you'll bounce off the wall and lose a few seconds as opposed to slamming a wall and essentially ending your race. This is especially true in an online setting, and it adds immersion and challenge.

If you don't want to deal with that, I'm sure (like Forza and all but one PC sim) there will be an option to turn the damage off. Options and improvements are a good thing.
 
Ok, here is another angel. I am a retired racer, and understand full well what can happen when you have a brain fart in the middle of a race. Now when we race online and know that if you ***** up, all that will happen is a loss of time. So alot of people will push it to far. Once you know that there is severe damage, you have to know were you are at all times.
This will help to a point as there will always be some punter's out there. but it should lessen the amount.
Here is the up side.If they have damage on in the beginner class, log in to watch the carnage. See how many quit the race in frustration. Maybe then they will learn.💡:cheers:
 
So... a 5-second penalty ain't enough? I'd rather just have sandtraps, or a black-flag system. Either of which would effectively end your race.

I'm no fan of crashing in real-life or sim-life, and I don't relish the thought of being taken completely out of a race I'm winning because some dolt runs into my rear end at 100 mph going into a chicane. I know, I know, it happens in real-life, but so do flat tires, repair bills and track fees, and I'm not that anxious to see it implemented.

Optional, yes. Visual damage, no problem, but only if it includes mechanical damage, if it's all cosmetic only, forget it.

...hmmm... on the first note... I'd rather have a black-flag or mandatory drive-through penalty than crash damage. Certainly more realistic than "ghosting". If a person continuously goes off-course, hits other cars and what-not, they get flagged off the course, sit in the pits twiddling their thumbs for a minute or two, and everyone else who is not a noob gets to enjoy the race up to the checkered flag.

It's simple to implement. All the computer has to do is track corner and straight speeds to figure out who's at fault. If there's a collision due to brake checking, the computer will look and see that someone has suddenly decelerated far from a corner. If it's due to ramming, computer notes that the guy behind is going 30-40 mph too fast to make the corner. Penalties will be given accordingly. All nudging and simple jostling for position is ignored.
 
I would much rather see mechanical damage, tire wear, and fuel consumption than cosmetic damage. Also, on the side of paying for repairs, I am all for it. Sure you can do some easy cash races to make the money to repair, but who wants to do some tedious racing over and over and over and over again? Eventually people will get tired of this and learn to race instead of trashing their car, right?
 
Because there's a difference between knowing the worst that can happen is that you'll bounce off the wall and lose a few seconds as opposed to slamming a wall and essentially ending your race. This is especially true in an online setting, and it adds immersion and challenge.

If you don't want to deal with that, I'm sure (like Forza and all but one PC sim) there will be an option to turn the damage off. Options and improvements are a good thing.

That being said, whether you bounce of the wall of leave a 100 thousand dollar lump of metal your lap/race is done. By the time you get back on track without damage you will have been passed by the whole field. In an online setting however you have a valid point just like the other gentlemen who commented. But let's be honest even in Forza there are always clowns who run you over mid corner..and they keep on going as if nothing..
 
In my opinion, they can't call this The Real Driving Simulator if there is barely sort of engine damage or visual damage at all. I would prefer for them not to add damage, but they can't just keep going around falsely advertising this as The Real Driving Simulator. I was disappointed when I first got Grand Turismo and crashed my car just to find out nothing happened, but then again that was the PS1 days. They still calling it that today when all they got is realistic graphics and so-so physics. They should either not add damage and change thier simulator slogan, or actually live up to the slogan.
 
I want damage and it will bring that extra realism to Gran Turismo. If it's optional we'll have a fair game here, we'll all get what we want. As for the penalty system, I'd take that to a different level and make penalties for dangerous driving...eg taking another racer off the road or spinning them out.

As for online it would be good if we have races with damage and races without damage...and we're all fair and square. In order to drag players in there's also got to be a good reason why you get a penalty...I end up tapping into a barrier, another racer hits me and I get a 3 second penalty. basically that drags players out and also makes them to go out all rough and ram people off the road so they get a penalty. We've got to remember that Gran Turismo isn't Demoliation Derby.
 
basically it will take the arguments away from people who try to pick GT apart.
 
Its not even a question, GT5 has to have damage that's it.
 
I would much rather see mechanical damage, tire wear, and fuel consumption than cosmetic damage. Also, on the side of paying for repairs, I am all for it. Sure you can do some easy cash races to make the money to repair, but who wants to do some tedious racing over and over and over and over again? Eventually people will get tired of this and learn to race instead of trashing their car, right?

The whole paying for damage thing is garbage. I want a driving simulator. I don't want to play The Sims. I don't want to do stupid game-like errands to be able to continue to play. Next race, the car comes back fresh. Hell, even GRID does that.
It's bad enough that we have to do those damned license tests to play a game that we paid for.
 
I dont care about damage ,only I want is full customize of car bumpers,rims , weather change, interchange of the day and night in 24 hours race.
 
The whole paying for damage thing is garbage. I want a driving simulator. I don't want to play The Sims. I don't want to do stupid game-like errands to be able to continue to play. Next race, the car comes back fresh. Hell, even GRID does that.
It's bad enough that we have to do those damned license tests to play a game that we paid for.

...so you want a simulator.. but not too much of one...?
 
...so you want a simulator.. but not too much of one...?

One has to remember that the main point of games is fun through mainly escapism.
Thus, a degree of realism is sometimes good, but too much is dull or at times frustrating.

Driving/racing games can get away with a lot of realism because most people would never be able to drive these cars at these speeds around these tracks. However, there is a point where it does become "too realistic".

This actually applies to a lot of arts and literature.
 
One has to remember that the main point of games is fun through mainly escapism.
Thus, a degree of realism is sometimes good, but too much is dull or at times frustrating.

Driving/racing games can get away with a lot of realism because most people would never be able to drive these cars at these speeds around these tracks. However, there is a point where it does become "too realistic".

This actually applies to a lot of arts and literature.

So you are saying that its really subjective then.
 
So you are saying that its really subjective then.

I'm saying that games that claim to be simulators are not simulators by definition, seeing as they are aimed to be fun over being 100% accurate simulations of real life, at least they won't go as far as having to pay for damages or your avatar dying and you can never play the game again.
 
One has to remember that the main point of games is fun through mainly escapism.
Thus, a degree of realism is sometimes good, but too much is dull or at times frustrating.

Driving/racing games can get away with a lot of realism because most people would never be able to drive these cars at these speeds around these tracks. However, there is a point where it does become "too realistic".

This actually applies to a lot of arts and literature.

When I got my first job in the games industry, my task was to program the AI for enemy planes in the PS1 game "Top Gun: Fire at Will". It took me a month to get planes to avoid running into the ground, and another month to get them to get fairly good at maneuvering behind the player to line up for a shot. Once we were happy with it, we brought in the first set of playtesters for a focus group.

The feedback was pretty unanimous: "This game is boring. Where are the other planes?"

Of course, the other planes were all behind them, lining up for shots on the player. However, they weren't visible on screen, so the player's experience (especially for novices) was a poor one.

As a result, we revamped the AI such that, at the beginning levels, fully 80% of the time the enemy planes were doing their best to get in front of the player so they could be shot down (we called this "become target mode"), while only 20% of the time were they actually trying to shoot down the player ("acquire target mode"). They would switch modes frequently, so there was plenty of action even if the player sat there flying straight and level.

The great game designer Sid Meier put it another way "The user is your buddy: be good to him." He said this when explaining why computer opponents would never be the first to use nuclear weapons in his game Civilization, even when threatened with extinction. He described it as the equivalent of the computer tipping over the chessboard when faced with a losing situation.

The point is this: the main goal of the game is to entertain the player, not to be the best and most accurate simulation possible. Some players find accurate simulation to be fun, and so striving to create a foundation as realistic as possible can be a goal in and of itself, provided you don't sacrifice the goal of entertainment for the average player.

I personally think that PD has done a remarkable job of balancing these two, giving the hardcore sim-heads a more realistic simulation, while still leaving the game accessible to the average player. I trust that the implementation of damage will follow a similar vein.
 
I'm saying that games that claim to be simulators are not simulators by definition, seeing as they are aimed to be fun over being 100% accurate simulations of real life, at least they won't go as far as having to pay for damages or your avatar dying and you can never play the game again.

Then i'm quite lost at what you (are anyone else for that matter) want from "racing simulator" game... or should i rather say a "racing game".

It seems that by the GTplanet.net dictionary of definitions; Simulation = tire grip so far. any game that seems to have a car stick too much on tarmac is not a real simulator... but any other features that resemble more simulation (as in reproducting something related to racing) doesn't count... [as much?].

Good examples:

Forza Motorsport 2 deals damage. Esthetically its just so-so, but it does affect your driving abilities and makes you think twice about taking "that turn" flat out. That makes Forza 2 "simulate" racing a lot better then GT5p. And I must say, a LOT and i mean A LOT of people love and still play Forza2. The game IS fun.

GRID deals damage very well. Cars deform, windshields get fragmented bulk out, ****ing your vision as well as affects your ability to drive a lot, again making you weary of just punting other cars or taking a corner flatout. That makes GRID "simulate" racing a lot better then GT5p. Again, there's a good lot of players online with this game, and it is definitely fun to play.

So we have here two very good examples of racing "simulators", which in both cases, were snobed at because "they are not true simulators" because the tires don't stick to tarmac like they should, but are quite fun and do simulate aspects of real world racing, but somehow, they are no good...

so now i'm extremely confused about what makes a racing game ... because in my book, both of these games are, at this moment, way more of a racing game then GT5p.
 
When I got my first job in the games industry, my task was to program the AI for enemy planes in the PS1 game "Top Gun: Fire at Will". It took me a month to get planes to avoid running into the ground, and another month to get them to get fairly good at maneuvering behind the player to line up for a shot. Once we were happy with it, we brought in the first set of playtesters for a focus group.

The feedback was pretty unanimous: "This game is boring. Where are the other planes?"

Of course, the other planes were all behind them, lining up for shots on the player. However, they weren't visible on screen, so the player's experience (especially for novices) was a poor one.

As a result, we revamped the AI such that, at the beginning levels, fully 80% of the time the enemy planes were doing their best to get in front of the player so they could be shot down (we called this "become target mode"), while only 20% of the time were they actually trying to shoot down the player ("acquire target mode"). They would switch modes frequently, so there was plenty of action even if the player sat there flying straight and level.

The great game designer Sid Meier put it another way "The user is your buddy: be good to him." He said this when explaining why computer opponents would never be the first to use nuclear weapons in his game Civilization, even when threatened with extinction. He described it as the equivalent of the computer tipping over the chessboard when faced with a losing situation.

The point is this: the main goal of the game is to entertain the player, not to be the best and most accurate simulation possible. Some players find accurate simulation to be fun, and so striving to create a foundation as realistic as possible can be a goal in and of itself, provided you don't sacrifice the goal of entertainment for the average player.

I personally think that PD has done a remarkable job of balancing these two, giving the hardcore sim-heads a more realistic simulation, while still leaving the game accessible to the average player. I trust that the implementation of damage will follow a similar vein.

Thats what I was getting at, theres a balance you have to make. I have no doubt that there are people who enjoy being served with huge bills for mistakes made by the AI, however, games are designed to sell, and aiming for a minority market is obviously a disastorous idea.
While GT is catering for a crowd that loves high amounts of realism, the majority of people playing the game will probably find being billed for AI mistakes frustrating.

Anyway, I agree that PD have come up with a great solution for making the game still accessible to the majority while catering for the hardcore. Still, there will be varying degrees of how realistic hardcore players want the game, but thats where we'll have options for this kind of thing.

Its good to see that PD still want to please hardcore fans and realise that not everyone enjoys the same level of realism.

I'm currently on a degree course with the aim of getting into the industry, so I enjoy debating this kind of thing. Have any tips for an upcoming games programmer/designer? :)
 
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that damage can just be implemented in the way Forza has it. Mechanical and visual damage present, with the option of making it visual only or limited mechanical damage, and when you finish races, it deducts from your prize money depending how much damage you got (if mechanical damage is on). Games have been doing it like this years (or have it fully off instead of visual only on some games) and it's been working fine. Why would anyone bother putting a repair shop and other tedious tasks? That takes away fun from the game.

If you want a realistic simulator, why are you even playing Gran Turismo? You should be playing rFactor or Live For Speed. Those games are faar more realistic than Gran Turismo ever will be. A lot of you come up with these ridiculous "realism" ideas and look towards Gran Turismo perfecting things. Why not take it farther? To buy a Ferrari in the game, you have to use your own $200,000. There's a point where you have to draw the line. And like I said, if you're looking for full realism, you're playing the wrong game. You should be playing LFS or iRacing.com instead where the online racing is far closer to what real life racing is compared to Gran Turismo (who is light years behind in the terms of "racing" itself).
 
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that damage can just be implemented in the way Forza has it. Mechanical and visual damage present, with the option of making it visual only or limited mechanical damage, and when you finish races, it deducts from your prize money depending how much damage you got (if mechanical damage is on). Games have been doing it like this years (or have it fully off instead of visual only on some games) and it's been working fine. Why would anyone bother putting a repair shop and other tedious tasks? That takes away fun from the game.

If you want a realistic simulator, why are you even playing Gran Turismo? You should be playing rFactor or Live For Speed. Those games are faar more realistic than Gran Turismo ever will be. A lot of you come up with these ridiculous "realism" ideas and look towards Gran Turismo perfecting things. Why not take it farther? To buy a Ferrari in the game, you have to use your own $200,000. There's a point where you have to draw the line. And like I said, if you're looking for full realism, you're playing the wrong game. You should be playing LFS or iRacing.com instead where the online racing is far closer to what real life racing is compared to Gran Turismo (who is light years behind in the terms of "racing" itself).

👍👍👍
 
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that damage can just be implemented in the way Forza has it. Mechanical and visual damage present, with the option of making it visual only or limited mechanical damage, and when you finish races, it deducts from your prize money depending how much damage you got (if mechanical damage is on). Games have been doing it like this years (or have it fully off instead of visual only on some games) and it's been working fine. Why would anyone bother putting a repair shop and other tedious tasks? That takes away fun from the game.

If you want a realistic simulator, why are you even playing Gran Turismo? You should be playing rFactor or Live For Speed. Those games are faar more realistic than Gran Turismo ever will be. A lot of you come up with these ridiculous "realism" ideas and look towards Gran Turismo perfecting things. Why not take it farther? To buy a Ferrari in the game, you have to use your own $200,000. There's a point where you have to draw the line. And like I said, if you're looking for full realism, you're playing the wrong game. You should be playing LFS or iRacing.com instead where the online racing is far closer to what real life racing is compared to Gran Turismo (who is light years behind in the terms of "racing" itself).

You are a trust fan of x360 or person who hates ps3.
 
You are a trust fan of x360 or person who hates ps3.

where the hell did that come from? Mustang refers to PC games btw... and consoles have nothing to do with the subject of this conversation...
 
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