Why are realistic hybrids hated so badly?

[KinLM]

Maybe some of you will realize it if I make it a realistic analogy.

Two boxers train for a match.(Two people tune cars for a GT5 race)

The first boxer (Mazda RX-7 FC3S) trains in a bad city. Poor food, poor weight room facilities, he's out of luck.

If only our first boxer (FC3S) knew about the city 50 miles away. (A better tune for his car)

There, his opponent (Mazda RX-7 FD3S) trains in state of the art weight room facilities. He eats protein-rich foods. He's ready for the fight. (Equipped with a great tune)

Now, the first fighter had the opportunity to train like the second one did. It was possible, but he didn't take advantage of it. (This is the equivalent of how in GT5, you can race two similar cars. The FD3S would most likely win in the race, but if the FC3S had a good enough tune then you could have a fair race.)

Now, the second boxer might just be naturally stronger than the first (An FD3S is just naturally faster than an old FC3S). But that's just how it is in nature (How things are in the world of GT5)

But then, a third boxer arrives. (Mazda RX-8)

This boxer took illegal steroids to boost his strength (A hybrid). And while the other two boxers might have been able to get their hands on these steroids, why would they want to? It's breaking the rules, it's unfair.

The third boxer argues "these aren't crazy steroids! They just replicate what things would be like if I went to the weight room! It's fair!"

But the other two boxers disagree. They don't feel that they should have to break the rules to compete with this. After all, despite what the third boxer says, how are they really supposed to know how much stronger the steroids make him? How are they supposed to know just how big of an advantage he really has?

The simple answer is that they don't. And it's the same in GT5.

Even if you make a "realistic hybrid," it still isn't fair. PP is a general guideline as to how fast a car might be, but it really isn't 100% accurate. So even if your "realistic" hybrid makes the same PP, you could still have a huge advantage in game.

Maybe if you were just using a really good car and had a really good tune, we wouldn't mind so much. But you're violating rules laid down by Sony to make these cars, and we shouldn't have to do this as well just for a fair race. We shouldn't have to go through extra trouble just because you all decide to cheat.

And before you say "It isn't cheating", it is. You have access to thing that we don't simply because you're breaking the rules and we aren't. And we shouldn't have to break those rules to have access to the same things.

You should be the ones abiding by the rules and using what we are, so that everybody has an equal chance one way or another. If somebody finds a fast car for the PP and gets a great tune, that's fine. Everybody else could easily do that, they have access to the same things.

But as long as you have access to things beyond us, it is and always will be seen as cheating.

 

[Samus]

Life is not always fair, and you hate the fact that some people have hybrids, I get all that.

I didn't say that. Don't put words into my mouth.

I don't see things the same way as you do, non hybrid lobbies should be no problem to host if that is your fancy. But as you said, you don't even play the game anymore and I can see why

..and how do you absolutely ensure that a lobby is non-hybrid? You can't. Ergo, it's not fair. I stopped playing the game because it's 2+ years old and boring but if you think you know another reason feel free to let me know.

 

[arora]

You didn't say that and I should not put words in your mouth, yet in your next breath you say it's not fair.

No worries mate, I've seen you on these boards long enough to realize not only are you always right but no one else is entitled to an opinion.

Boring is what I figured.

 

[AudiMan2011]

*Snip*

+1 👍

 

[Samus]

You didn't say that and I should not put words in your mouth, yet in your next breath you say it's not fair.

I don't see the correlation. You haven't yet to give me a reason to believe hybrids are fair.

No worries mate, I've seen you on these boards long enough to realize not only are you always right but no one else is entitled to an opinion.

I don't see my telling you that either. I've given my side of the argument, that hybrids are inherintly not fair, as I say above I'm yet to see any detailed reasoning as to why they are except that they could be fair and that apparently they can be detected 100% of the time to keep them out of non-hybrid rooms.

 

[jgancherjr]

Hybrids are not fair to use in a PP restricted race or any online race where people are trying to run legit cars.. If you want to disagree your either ignorant, childish, or you can't drive... But what they are is fun, simple as that.. I enjoy them

 

[spikeyhairdude]

Some say it ruins the racing experience. Unfair advantage in races.

Some people take it too far having ridiculous cars with very low pp. Which does ruin races.
Others say its good, Can do realistic tuning plus do thing that was not possible before.

 

[Thomas2012]

Hybrids have a bad reputation which plays a part and as some have said it is an unfair advantage.

 

[counter345]

*snip*

I disagree with your analogy, purely because it can't be compared to an online lobby with restrictions in Gran Turismo 5.

Say you had two boxers: one was a heavyweight and one was a lightweight. Now, say there were two street cars: One with 550pp, and the other 450pp.

Now, if they fight (race) together in this instance, is this fair? No, of course not.

If the lightweight takes up steroids, trains their muscles or whatever and brings themselves up to heavyweight level, is this fair? Of course.

My point is that a well set-up lobby will include restrictions to ensure fairness anyway.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I disagree with your analogy, purely because it can't be compared to an online lobby with restrictions in Gran Turismo 5.

Say you had two boxers: one was a heavyweight and one was a lightweight. Now, say there were two street cars: One with 550pp, and the other 450pp.

Now, if they fight (race) together in this instance, is this fair? No, of course not.

If the lightweight takes up steroids, trains their muscles or whatever and brings themselves up to heavyweight level, is this fair? Of course.

My point is that a well set-up lobby will include restrictions to ensure fairness anyway.

PP restrictions don't work with many hybrids. Weight and HP won't work either as that NSX Type R 02' on the grid might have an NSX GT500 car under it that you can't see. I've seen a Type R 02 with the same HP at 550PP as any other Type R, but with 25/35 downforce. You think you're going to beat that?

 

[KinLM]

I disagree with your analogy, purely because it can't be compared to an online lobby with restrictions in Gran Turismo 5.

Say you had two boxers: one was a heavyweight and one was a lightweight. Now, say there were two street cars: One with 550pp, and the other 450pp.

Now, if they fight (race) together in this instance, is this fair? No, of course not.

If the lightweight takes up steroids, trains their muscles or whatever and brings themselves up to heavyweight level, is this fair? Of course.

My point is that a well set-up lobby will include restrictions to ensure fairness anyway.

If he did that then he'd be breaking the rules and cheating. That wouldn't be fair because the heavyweight would have to take up steroids to win, in a situation where he would clearly win if the lightweight wasn't cheating.

And as I said above, it is cheating, because those of us who follow the rules have access to far less than you all do.

 

[esoxhntr]

PP restrictions don't work with many hybrids. Weight and HP won't work either as that NSX Type R 02' on the grid might have an NSX GT500 car under it that you can't see. I've seen a Type R 02 with the same HP at 550PP as any other Type R, but with 25/35 downforce. You think you're going to beat that?

adding downforce through the backdoor also increases PP -- same way it does if you add a wing and if a front wing were available for roadcars.

so no, unless the downforced NSX has added a boatload of weight, it will not have the same HP.

 

[Samus]

There seems to be a lot of claims and counter claims in regards to what is possible, maybe the claims should be backed up with some evidence some time soon?

 

[Johnnypenso]

adding downforce through the backdoor also increases PP -- same way it does if you add a wing and if a front wing were available for roadcars.

so no, unless the downforced NSX has added a boatload of weight, it will not have the same HP.

And yet it does have the same HP...

 

[Exorcet]

There seems to be a lot of claims and counter claims in regards to what is possible, maybe the claims should be backed up with some evidence some time soon?

Yes, evidence has been missing for a while.

 

[esoxhntr]

There seems to be a lot of claims and counter claims in regards to what is possible, maybe the claims should be backed up with some evidence some time soon?

Sure

here is a brand new NSX Type R 02 no oil change, stock with just the gt auto wing so you can see the aero values (although PP will still change, you wont see the values if no aftermarket wing is added)

here it is again with 15/25 aero

 

[TexasTyme214]

What happens if you change suspension? Can you change the grip multiplier?

 

[Downhill Dino]

Suspension has no effect on Performance Point values, nor does the LSD, Flywheel, and the like.

 

[esoxhntr]

What happens if you change suspension? Can you change the grip multiplier?

Handling characteristics come from the chassis. When you swap a chassis (say from a race car) the PP gets recalculated using the donor chassis. When you swap a chassis you inherit the donor car's weight, weight distribution and handling characteristics. Same with swapping a motor (PP gets recalculated).

The grip and HP multipliers also affect PP.

 

[starshipenterz]

Handling characteristics come from the chassis. When you swap a chassis (say from a race car) the PP gets recalculated using the donor chassis. When you swap a chassis you inherit the donor car's weight, weight distribution and handling characteristics. Same with swapping a motor (PP gets recalculated).

The grip and HP multipliers also affect PP.

handling doesn't entirely come from the chassis, in fact a lot of the handling characteristics come from the suspension, put an X2010 chassis under a heavy understeering car like an Aventador and you'll still feel a certain unwillingness to turn-in or heavyness in the steering that comes from the Lambo's suspension, personally if you're looking for an edge i would leave the chassis alone and swap the suspension as it's undetectable and gives a better edge.

 

[nickg07]

Just because PD hasn't banned them yet does not mean they are legit or aren't considered cheats.

 

[esoxhntr]

handling doesn't entirely come from the chassis, in fact a lot of the handling characteristics come from the suspension, put an X2010 chassis under a heavy understeering car like an Aventador and you'll still feel a certain unwillingness to turn-in or heavyness in the steering that comes from the Lambo's suspension, personally if you're looking for an edge i would leave the chassis alone and swap the suspension as it's undetectable and gives a better edge.

Its your imagination.

95% comes from chassis, the rest from the body in the form of tire width. Fortinately body swap means the car now looks like the donor.

Suspension swap just gives you the range of values and or settings of the donor car.

If the receiving car already has the ability to have its values mimic the donor and this includes lsd, awd fwd rwd, etc it will handle the same if assigned those values.

So of course the lambo will be differnt. Its awd and cannot mimic the suspension settings the x2010 chassis needs

 

[starshipenterz]

Suspension swap just gives you the range of values and or settings of the donor car.

If the receiving car already has the ability to have its values mimic the donor and this includes lsd, awd fwd rwd, etc it will handle the same if assigned those values.

So of course the lambo will be differnt. Its awd and cannot mimic the suspension settings the x2010 chassis needs

not true, i have two Super GT cars with just the X2010 suspension not the chassis, while every other car is burning their tires off around a corner i can casually steer through with no understeer whatsoever, in fact try swapping the X2010 or an LM chassis under any road car and you'll notice a HUGE difference in handling, without having the wheels riding outside of the body like a chassis swap gives.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You might love hybrids or hate them but they also might be here until GT6 so I say let's try and make the best of it and encourage and support the creation of realistic, circuit based, hybrids. If you are dead set against hybrids and think they are a joke or you can beat them on the track with your legit GT5 tunes, there's a place for you too.

I'm willing to organize some racing to find out just what these "realistic" hybrids can do against standard tuned cars. I'm willing to put in the time and effort to organize it and participate and if you know me, you know it'll be clean, well organized racing. No 3500hp/550PP cars here, just realistic creations, tuned for circuit and oval racing if there's enough interest. Probably in the 450-600PP range.

If you're interested as a Designer, Tuner or Driver, check out the thread below in the Interest Checks Forum. Hope to see you there!!!

[post=8311754]Hybrids vs. Standard Tuned Cars - Let's Race!!!![/post]​

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

I drive my realistic hybrids in cruise rooms, or Drift rooms,And race my regular tuned cars in Real racing rooms, In free roam rooms, when i'm using a realistic hybrid, say a 240sx, with a RB26 swap, lowered with a wider stance and about 600 hp, i always get someone in a R8 or an impreza, etc...Wheels stretched out of the chassis, X1 drone...and proceeds to pour smoke into my face. People bragging about 1 million and up horse power...Getting pushed by a stupid GTR...gets annoying, Yes i love my realistic hybrids and only cruise or drift with them...but even free roam rooms are becoming ruined by cars flying by...sparking...at god knows how fast..Crashing, because they can't control them, ruining drags, because they can't dodge us, and then people begging me to mod they're car's or trade...i say nothing, and mind my own business.But I am so gratefull for the races on GTP...

 

[BlazeTheCat05]

I drive my realistic hybrids in cruise rooms, or Drift rooms,And race my regular tuned cars in Real racing rooms, In free roam rooms, when i'm using a realistic hybrid, say a 240sx, with a RB26 swap, lowered with a wider stance and about 600 hp, i always get someone in a R8 or an impreza, etc...Wheels stretched out of the chassis, X1 drone...and proceeds to pour smoke into my face. People bragging about 1 million and up horse power...Getting pushed by a stupid GTR...gets annoying, Yes i love my realistic hybrids and only cruise or drift with them...but even free roam rooms are becoming ruined by cars flying by...sparking...at god knows how fast..Crashing, because they can't control them, ruining drags, because they can't dodge us, and then people begging me to mod they're car's or trade...i say nothing, and mind my own business.But I am so gratefull for the races on GTP...

^^^^This. When I'm in a Nurburgring free run lobby I'll usually bust out my BMW M3 GTS replica that features a SuperGT Is350 chassis for better handling and run a few laps to see what I can get. If I'm not feeling like going for a nice lap time, then I'll be running my V8-powered Miata or my Prius with a custom 6-speed (yes there are manual conversion kits for Prius's out there!). It's annoying when you look behind you and 5 or 6 cars are flashing their lights and beeping their horns at you to get your attention, then demand you make them a modded car. If I'm the host, I just end up kicking them. I'm minding my own business and you're being annoying, therefore you get the treatment you rightfully deserve.

 

[nickg07]

When you have people asking what wider chassis they can fit to the RUF and wanting to fit x2010 suspension to their super GT cars then I think its fair to say these people are doing this to cheat for a big advantage.

They aren't swapping sr20dets into a Nissan primera/g20 instead of a standard sr20de.

They are creating cars which undetectably handle much better than the normal version.

 

[JohnyPiston]

Not that anyone should care but I personally will never support "Hybrids" (even that name is insulting as it merely seems to legitimise things that should only be called "Hacked Cars"). I do not care if they are realistic, unrealistic or are merely imagined and/or wished for ...I want none of that in my garage or my online space. For those who enjoy them, good luck to you.

Now, if PD or anyone at Sony occasionally reads these forums and gets a hold of this, I just want them to know that I understand that people are simply taking advantage of a security hole. I am not upset with anyone using Hybrids ...not in the least. In fact I can see why some would like them. This I can accept as a part of "Human Nature". But I will never ever accept or understand the deafening silence from PD/Sony. Kaz is supposed to be a racing man ...he MUST know all about Fair Play. Sure I will grant that it may take a while for a technical fix but to silently sit by and see this flagrant abuse of the terms of service is unforgivable. Are the Terms of Service not supposed to ensure a level playing field? Are they not there for our protection too? At the very least PD must announce their support for hacked cars so that we can all move on and accept it as approved behaviour. But to be silent ...and leave this air of suspicion to constantly hang over any and all online activities...I am sorry but that is COMPLETELY unacceptable by any standard ...business or moral.

Again, this is not about the people who have these cars. You are either on borrowed time, or you are pioneers in GT5's immediate future. PD must make that call ...and soon!

 

[nickg07]

Look how PD dealt with the real hybrid cars like the ae86 and shigeno.

The 86 is 80s capable being from the 80s. The shigeno is a different engine in same body, but no it doesn't have 600bhp. Or a v8.

And its classed as being 2000 not from the 80s events so it can't rock up there and blast everyone in their dated 80s tech.

Its no longer a ae86 its its own unique car with its own unique id so everyone else knows what it is. It can only enter competition for which it is eligible not what the standard ae86 is RL eligible for.

These hacks puport to be one thing but are another entirely.

 

[NjLowrider]

Not that anyone should care but I personally will never support "Hybrids" (even that name is insulting as it merely seems to legitimise things that should only be called "Hacked Cars"). I do not care if they are realistic, unrealistic or are merely imagined and/or wished for ...I want none of that in my garage or my online space. For those who enjoy them, good luck to you.

Now, if PD or anyone at Sony occasionally reads these forums and gets a hold of this, I just want them to know that I understand that people are simply taking advantage of a security hole. I am not upset with anyone using Hybrids ...not in the least. In fact I can see why some would like them. This I can accept as a part of "Human Nature". But I will never ever accept or understand the deafening silence from PD/Sony. Kaz is supposed to be a racing man ...he MUST know all about Fair Play. Sure I will grant that it may take a while for a technical fix but to silently sit by and see this flagrant abuse of the terms of service is unforgivable. Are the Terms of Service not supposed to ensure a level playing field? Are they not there for our protection too? At the very least PD must announce their support for hacked cars so that we can all move on and accept it as approved behaviour. But to be silent ...and leave this air of suspicion to constantly hang over any and all online activities...I am sorry but that is COMPLETELY unacceptable by any standard ...business or moral.

Again, this is not about the people who have these cars. You are either on borrowed time, or you are pioneers in GT5's immediate future. PD must make that call ...and soon!

Agree'd