Why are the replay stats missing? Realistic or near fantasy?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by ACBrizvegas, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    When you are racing you can see how many seconds the car behind you is, how many seconds you are behind the car in front and how far you are behind the race leader. None of this info is displayed in replay mode. Really think this needs to be fixed in the next release of GT because replays are important. They also need to give the times of cars you have beaten in a a race rather then just saying 'still running'. To me these are major flaws. I do not understand why these stats are not displayed.

    Hopefully you will understand why I am complaining about that - it just seems like a stupid lazy oversight.

    But there is another issue that bugs me greatly. GT is supposed to be the 'ultimate realistic racing simulator' - but I had to race against 16 Hamillton F1 cars - (checked on the web but you can't buy them). Currently racing a Red Bull X02014. This has never existed and never will. I Would rather race a Lada then a non existent fantasy car.
     
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  2. watto79

    watto79

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    I understand there are technical reasons that the replay data is missing, and I agree it would be better if it was included. Let's hope it's there in the next GT game.

    On the rest of your post....

    Where are you quoting that from?

    You "had" to? You don't have to do anything. You had the choice to race a car that does exist though and then complain that......

    You raced a car that exists and didn't like it because you can't buy it, and then complain that you raced a car that doesn't exist?

    There are lots of cars in the game. Use the ones you want, nobody is forcing your hand. Lots of the cars in GTSport that actually exist are impossible to buy (vintage race cars, actually most of the race cars) Should they not be in the game either because you can't buy them? If you don't like the fantasy cars just don't race them.

    I don't understand your complaint. I'm assuming there are cars that you enjoy racing so just stick to those? It's a game and supposed to be fun, so don't do the things you don't enjoy.
     
  3. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Wait until you hear about the Honda CR-X del Sol LM Edition...
     
  4. Bivittavus88

    Bivittavus88

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    Delta times not showing in replays? Yup. Bugs the hell out of me. But, there's sweet naff all I can do about it.

    Only one licensed F1 car is a little frustrating. But, meh. GT has never been about open wheelers.

    No idea why you're complaining about the rest. There are 300+ cars in the game. Go drive 'em.
     
  5. breeminator

    breeminator

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    There is at least a workaround for this, which is to record the race video footage. You can do this using the PS4 itself, or using separate hardware, e.g. I bought a used Elgato HD60 from a reputable online retailer that sells lots of used equipment, and it was much cheaper than a brand new one, while still being in essentially "as new" condition and working perfectly. I have to say, it always annoys me when people put replay footage up on youtube, as it seems really lazy to me, and disrespects the viewers due to it lacking the information you mention, and also not letting you see qualifying times.
     
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  6. Scuderia Paul

    Scuderia Paul

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    Perhaps when compared to Wipeout. Otherwise GT is a fairly long way off being that.

    I totally agree with you about the Replay into though.
     
  7. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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  8. watto79

    watto79

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    Don't let a marketing tag line ruin your enjoyment of the game. There's plenty to have fun with. I'd imagine any single player content will have elements you won't like as much as others. You can't please all of the people all of the time!
     
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  9. Lebowski

    Lebowski

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    I get that you have to use the F1 car and X- Redbulls in some campaign events but they don't affect overall completion so it is still a free choice to use them.
     
  10. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    One other thing I hope they fix for the next release - the lap time graph at the end of a race. It doesn't tell you anything helpful other than (as far as I can tell) average speed for the race as a whole. When I win, my lap time line is usually straight at the top of the graph - even if I had a horror lap when I know other cars were quicker. It's the same when you don't win. For example, if I run the fastest lap on lap 3 and finish 6th, the line for my lap time is mostly straight in 6th place. Even if I get the fastest lap of the race it isn't shown - ie, there is no spike in the graph. If I'm reading it wrong please let me know. Given up looking at it.

    Agree. It was just an opinion.

    I like to win everything. So I will continue regardless.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2020
  11. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Did you play the first game at all?
     
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  12. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    If you read my posts you will see I am playing the game.
     
  13. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Yes, I can see your posts saying that you are playing this game, but the question was if you played the first game at all.
     
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  14. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    GT1? Why is that relevent.
     
  15. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    The first Gran Turismo was the first game in the Gran Turismo series. It was the first game to use the tagline you keep quoting of "The Real Driving Simulator". It also had entirely fictional cars in it (Honda CR-X del Sol LM, Mitsubishi FTO LM, and so on), along with some fictional stats on real ones (like the Subaru Impreza LM, a 300hp, 1200kg WRC car turned into a 500hp, 900kg "LM" class race car).

    GT has always had that tagline, and always had fictional cars. GT Sport is no different, save for the fact that the fictional cars are now designed by real car companies, designers, and studios for the game, rather than by PD itself. Except the fictional Gr.4/Gr.3/Gr.B race cars, which are PD's own.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  16. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    The first Gran Turismo was the first game in the Gran Turismo series. It was the first game to use the tagline you keep quoting of "The Real Driving Simulator"GT has always had that tagline, and always had fictional cars. GT Sport is no different,

    Well that maybe the case, but I don't understand why it's mandatory to have played the first game before you can comment on the latest version. Just because they used the tagline from the beginning doesn't make it right.

    I have played the previous 2 versions of GT and there were of course some non-existent cars in these as well. However, there were not nearly as many as there are in GT sport.

    I am simply expressing an opinion that I like to race real cars and I would prefer it if GT concentrated on real cars rather than fantasy ones for the next version. If you prefer racing cars that don't actually exist and want GT to continue down this path just say so. Personally, I don't think it adds anything to the game - why do you think it does?

    Sorry I keep quoting the tag line ' the real driving simulator'. It's just a game and I like it a lot. How is removing fantasy cars making it less real?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  17. breeminator

    breeminator

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    I've said before that I see the equations of the physics as separate from the parameters used in those equations. A simulation is realistic if the equations are realistic. If a car doesn't exist in real life, i.e. there is no car in real life that has that set of parameters to describe it, but the equations mean that it behaves in the game exactly how it would if it did exist in real life, then I still see that as an accurate simulation. Indeed it's one of the main reasons why simulations are created in other fields - to predict how something that doesn't exist would behave if it were made to exist.
     
  18. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    If you click the "Reply" button, you get a fully formatted reply which you can then respond to, and the person you're talking to gets notified that you have responded. Like the notification you just got with this reply.
    I don't recall anyone saying that it was.
    No, but it rather renders the complaint moot; the series has always used the tag and always featured fictional and quasi-fictional vehicles.
    GT Sport is the seventh main game, and 12th commercially available game in the GT series.
    That's fundamentally false. There's more fictional vehicles in GT6 than there are vehicles of any kind in GT Sport.
    That's cool and everything, but GT has never done that, in the entire 20-year history of the title, so you're looking at the wrong game series if that's your particular preference.

    Certainly there's very many real cars in every GT game, but this has always been balanced off with a good number of fictional cars - from cars that could conceivably be real or derived from real cars, through cars that are concepts or prototype models that might never see production (there was an entire game of these, called GT: Concept), and on to more fanciful things that definitely won't. In recent years, many of these have come direct from the vehicle manufacturer - and some actually function.

    I don't care.
    They definitely add something to the game, because without them there'd be less game.

    Among other things, fictional cars can fill a niche which would otherwise be empty. Take the Chevrolet Corvette Gr.3 race car, for example. This is an entirely fictional car, derived from the Corvette C7.R GTE race car. Polyphony Digital has no access to the real car, reportedly because the company responsible for building and running it - Pratt and Miller, not Chevrolet - won't licence it. Instead, PD uses the C7 it does have access to, via Chevrolet, and creates a fictional race car based on it which looks quite similar to the C7.R, but isn't. That allows Chevrolet to have a brand presence in the (also fictional) Gr.3 class, so that fans of Chevrolet can represent their manufacturer in the flagship FIA-Certified Online Championship. Remove that and there's less game for Chevrolet fans.

    In fact almost all of the Gr.3 class uses fictional race cars, and if you eliminated them there'd be almost no Gr.3 in the game - which is less game. Even those that aren't fictional are almost always not GT3-class cars either - the 911 RSR is a GTE, and the McLaren F1 is an LMGT1. But then the Gr.3 cars are created in much the same way that most real GT3 cars are - control parts and standardised sub-frames with a car shell fitted on top, plus control aero. What's the meaningful difference between a race team deciding on a 500hp silhouette VW Beetle race car and a games team deciding on a 500hp silhouette VW Beetle race car?

    Sure, when you get up to things like the Red Bull X series, the Dodge Tomahawk, and particularly the Chaparral 2X, you're getting into spaceship territory, but they're a natural evolution of the "this car doesn't exist, so let's make it" process which starts with cars like the Corvette Gr.3 (GTS), the Range Stormer Concept (GTC/4), or the Mitsubishi FTO LM Edition (GT1) - and that's a core of Gran Turismo that's been there since the start.

    It's also a core of car culture; the SEMA-winning cars we also get in the game are entirely real, but didn't exist until someone put together those parts to make those unique cars. There's no meaningful difference between doing that in the real world and doing it digitally - indeed I did hear a tale of someone once trying to recreate the CR-X del Sol LM, which only exists in GT1/2, in the real world by taking the virtual car as inspiration.

    It seems fine to me, because it simulates real driving - whether the car you're pretending to drive is 'real' or not.
     
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  19. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    I'm sorry, but while your first reply to this post was trying to be helpful, this one is just pure bollocks. To repeat, my suggestion is simply that GT concentrate on including real cars rather then non-existent concepts. Which do you prefer to race?
     
  20. breeminator

    breeminator

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    A personal preference is different to the question of whether or not it's realistic. I've developed numerous simulators for customers in my work, and in most cases, what was being simulated did not exist in the real world. The desire to simulate something that doesn't exist, but have it behave like it would if it did exist, is one of the most common reasons for creating a simulation.

    If you were to argue that GTS's physics aren't all that realistic for other reasons, I wouldn't disagree, e.g. one of the most obvious is the way the handbrake actively propels the car around. But if it were a correct simulation of fictitious cars, I wouldn't see this as contradicting the claim of it being a "real driving simulator". I expect that F1 teams all have simulators that also simulate fictitious cars so they can test ideas out before incurring the cost of physically developing such a car. Would you say that their simulators therefore don't simulate real driving, just because a car with those parameters doesn't exist at that time?
     
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  21. tankuroded

    tankuroded

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    Body kit wise, the C7 Gr.3 seems to be more based on the Callaway-built C7 GT3-R:
    [​IMG]

    And barely related, assuming they ran into same issues regarding C6.R to the point of creating C6 Z06/ZR1 RM/LM, why there are Pratt and Miller logos on that car?
     
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  22. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    Well that maybe the case, but I don't understand why it's mandatory to have played the first game before you can comment on the latest version.

    I don't recall anyone saying that it was.

    Well lets go back to what you posted...

    Did you play the first game at all?
    If you read my posts you will see I am playing the game

    Yes, I can see your posts saying that you are playing this game, but the question was if you played the first game at all.
    GT1? Why is that relevent.

    The first Gran Turismo was the first game in the Gran Turismo series.
    Really? Well I never. Who'd have thought it. You were pretty adamant in drumming this fact home.

    Just because they used the tagline from the beginning doesn't make it right.
    No, but it rather renders the complaint moot; the series has always used the tag and always featured fictional and quasi-fictional vehicles.
    I really don't want to go here, but Craven cigarettes used the tagline 'good for your throat'. They used that from the beginning as well. Using a tagline from the beginning doesn't make it right.

    ACBrizvegas:
    I have played the previous 2 versions of GT and there were of course some non-existent cars in these as well.
    GT Sport is the seventh main game, and 12th commercially available game in the GT series.
    So I'm not allowed to voice an opinion because I haven't played/do not know all the releases?

    ACBrizvegas:
    However, there were not nearly as many (fake cars) as there are in GT sport.
    That's fundamentally false. There's more fictional vehicles in GT6 than there are vehicles of any kind in GT Sport.
    Thats's because there were loads more cars in general in GT6. How many campaign races were you forced to race a fantasy car.

    ACBrizvegas:
    I am simply expressing an opinion that I like to race real cars and I would prefer it if GT concentrated on real cars rather than fantasy ones for the next version.
    That's cool and everything, but GT has never done that, in the entire 20-year history of the title, so you're looking at the wrong game series if that's your particular preference.
    What then? Forsa? Need for speed? Just think GT could be more realistic then it is and therefore better..

    ACBrizvegas:
    If you prefer racing cars that don't actually exist and want GT to continue down this path just say so.
    I don't care.
    ACBrizvegas:
    Personally, I don't think it adds anything to the game - why do you think it does?
    They definitely add something to the game, because without them there'd be less game.
    No. I don't think GT needs to expand the game with fantasy vehicles. Why not use some of the thousands of cars that actually exist. Instead of a rocket ship red bull never existing car use a reliant robin. Swap the stupid fantasy concepts for a Lada. I saw they added a Crown athlete which was great. Would love a Crown Majesta...but will probably get a GT/Mercedes virtual imaginary thingy.

    Sorry I keep quoting the tag line ' the real driving simulator'. It's just a game and I like it a lot. What do you think it should be changed to?
    It seems fine to me, because it simulates real driving - whether the car you're pretending to drive is 'real' or not.
    Saying it's real when the car isn't real doesn't make sense.

    Obviously we have opposing views. I think GT should concentrate on modelling real cars. You think they should continue focusing on concepts.
    Converasation ends as it will just go round and roundi in circles. Thanks.


    Thank you for your comment. Would it be possible to factor in these variants if the car has never existed? Tell me how this can be done as I am v interested.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2020
  23. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Again, please use the Reply button, because that's just a mess. The Reply button formats everything neatly for you - you can even do it sentence by sentence - and it sends a notification to the user you're quoting.

    In addition, these are things you have made up and I never said:

    I didn't say it was mandatory to have played previous games, I didn't say you weren't allowed to voice an opinion, and I didn't say the game series should focus on concepts.

    We can't have any sensible conversation if you keep making things up.

    None of the cars are real. They're all simulations. The game simulates what it would be like to really drive them. Real Driving Simulator. It doesn't say anything about real cars in there.

    Again, without fictional cars in the GT series, there wouldn't be a GT series. Scrubbing all the cars that have no identical real-world version from GT would make all of the previous games, and GT Sport, smaller and worse.

    Again, there's no meaningful difference between a real car made out of a regular car or for a silhouette racer and a Gran Turismo car made out of a regular car or for a silhouette racer. Again, making something that doesn't exist is a core of the series - and has been for 20 years - and real car culture too.

    Not every fictional car in the game is a Red Bull X series. Many are far closer to reality - like just about any of the Gr3 and the rear-wheel drive Gr4 cars. Some of the Vision GT cars have functioning real-world models, and one - the Bugatti - was even sold to a private buyer.

    As for "why not use some of the thousands of cars that actually exist", the answer is blindingly simple and I already covered it: licensing. The fictional cars are not taking the place of something else we could have had instead. They are there because there is not something else we could have had instead. The alternative to the Corvette Gr.3, or the Alfa Gr.3, or the Mazda Gr.3, or the Toyota Gr.3 is to have nothing at all.
     
  24. watto79

    watto79

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    Just out of interest @ACBrizvegas what is your opinion on fictional tracks?
     
  25. breeminator

    breeminator

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    Yes, with the caveat that the accuracy of estimating the parameters depends on the time/money you're willing to invest. For example, you can create a complete CAD model of a car, and specify the material used for every part. This will tell you what the weight of the car would be, and how high above the ground the centre of gravity would be. But it's only an estimate, because if you actually built it and tested it, maybe a part would fail and need to be made heavier. You can estimate the aerodynamic drag and downforce of the car using computational fluid dynamics, which is fairly cheap to do, but if you wanted a more accurate estimate, you could make a scale model and put it in a wind tunnel, which is obviously more expensive. And so on, for every element that needs to be parameterised for the driving simulator.
     
  26. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    Need to know more about the drag factor. Please expand.

    I prefer real ones.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2020
  27. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    I asked if you had played the first game, not "V", "V1" or "v1". The point being that the Gran Turismo series has since day one included fictional vehicles created to race alongside real ones - and they were vehicles created in the same manner by which race teams create race cars, tuners create tuner cars, and, more recently, real car manufacturers create concept cars.

    I asked you what the meaningful difference is between a race team deciding on a 500hp silhouette VW Beetle race car and a games team deciding on a 500hp silhouette VW Beetle race car, and the answer is that there isn't one. The car is built to meet the specifications of the series, whether it's real or virtual. People may not have made one in real life because there's easier and cheaper ways to get a GT3 race car (like buying a factory R8 from the previous season), but the game gives you that opportunity to see what it would be like if someone had.

    Fictional vehicles are a staple of the series, and someone who had played the first GT game would have appreciation of that fact. Fictional vehicles are a staple of the car industry (because concepts are part of the design process), of motorsports (because race cars are often only related to road cars by the body shell), and of car culture (because literally every tuner car ever is not what came out of the original factory). GT gives us, and has always given us, the opportunity to drive them.

    It's an unhelpful, unrealistic, and damaging suggestion, which I'm attempting to show you has no rational basis. You're taking an oddly combative stance, and insisting on making up parts of responses for some reason...
    If I say something and you pretend I said something else, there is no possibility to have a sensible conversation. If you press the "Reply" button, you can see what I've actually said, so there's no need to pretend I've said other things.
    I explained this already:
    Depending on how strict your definition of fictional, if you stripped out the fictional cars from GT Sport you'd be left with 151 cars - and it's possible to remove a few others on the basis that they're concept cars, albeit real and functional. The game would have launched with 66 cars.
    No, I said "blindingly simple", primarily because I already explained how one fictional car fills a gap that is created by a company unwilling to licence a car.
    Why not? Aside from the fact that it is incredibly tortuous and problematic, and I've already shows you an example of a car that fills a gap that is created by a company unwilling to licence a car, what makes you think getting car manufacturers to agree to have their cars - old and new - in a game is easy?

    PD has an entire office dedicated to the task, based in Amsterdam. It is highly complicated.

    Why would you think that?

    And they aren't the options. The options are a fictional vehicle - created in the same manner as a real tuner car, or a real race car, plus manufacturer-designed concept vehicles - or nothing at all.

    I already explained to you why a car like the Corvette Gr.3 exists in the game, and why removing it would only harm the game by leaving nothing where it was. The principle isn't limited to that vehicle.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  28. wobbleguts

    wobbleguts

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    I'll ignore all the rubbish about making things up and being combative. All I am saying is that I prefer to race real cars rather than fantasy ones. That's all. Why is this such a contentious issue with you? It doesn't matter how many versions of the game I've played or how the game has evolved over time. I am playing GT Sport now and voiced an opinion that it would be better if the cars you have to race in campaign mode were all real. Simple as that.

    In your last few posts you have explained that it is a licensing issue. GT can't get the license for enough real cars so they have to pad it out with fake ones. That's fair enough - understand that completely. However it doesn't change the fact that I prefer to race real cars. Shame that GT can't do this because of licensing but there you go. If only they could.

    No more replies to this thread please. I like to race real cars - you say it can't be done. Case closed. Have to go race the Red Bull X02014 again (sigh).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2020
  29. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    And I said that where? Quote me saying that. This is what I mean about you making things up and why it's difficult to have a sensible conversation with someone who does. I didn't say that because it isn't true and I wouldn't say something that I know isn't true - it can be done, it's just not easy.


    What I said was that licensing real cars is not straightforward, and GT has always had cars that fill in those gaps where they haven't been able to licence a real car (or there isn't one) for the purpose. That doesn't mean "it can't be done", it means they weren't able to do it.

    As these cars are built in the same manner as the cars they are filling in for, it doesn't actually matter if they are identical to a real car or not. As I explained, a GT3 car is just a body shell that looks like a road car, with custom (or spec) sub-frames, race-specification suspension, engine, braking, and gearbox, and spec aero, so it doesn't actually matter if the body shell is that of a car that raced in the real GT3 class or not. I can't imagine the mindset of someone who'd only race the Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Nissan Gr.3 cars, because they're the only ones that are "real" GT3 cars.

    Concept cars like Vision GT and the Red Bull X series cars, are designed externally by real car designers specifically for the game. The guy who designs all the Mazdas designed the Mazda Vision GT. The guy who designs all the Lamborghinis designed the Lamborghini Vision GT. The guy who designs all the Jaguar/Land Rover cars designed the Jaguar Vision GT. The guy who designs all the Red Bull F1 cars designed the Red Bull X series. They add to the game not only by being there, but by increasing the levels of cooperation between manufacturer and PD they make future licensing of 'real' cars potentially easier.