Why CSA is just ridiculous and should be banned for wheels

[Stotty]

I was watching laps by the fastest drivers and couldn't understand how they could go back to half throttle so quickly midcorner without oversteering, and then to full throttle sooner than I could manage. Turns out they were doing a much better job than I was getting the car turned into the corners without sliding the front tires at all. Less steering angle, more neutral midcorner behavior, quicker and more stable turn exits, much faster lap times.

👍

This has always been the trick to going quickly in GT... there's a direct correlation between minimising understeer and how hard you can get on the gas. Less steering angle = more throttle (and vice versa).

It's why the fastest laps look so unexciting.

What CSA does is allow you to use a fraction more throttle for a given steering angle without you losing traction... it's a super effective low speed TC.

 

[JeffKill]

I don't care who uses what aids in the game. I don't like CSA because it makes every car feel the same. The FFB is dull and lifeless enough in GTS.

 

[ChevapBH]

FFB is not that good in GTS, you can't even feel when your rear is slipping, so you can't counter-steer in time like in AC or PC2. If they fix that, I won't use CSA, but until then I will. Right now, you have to guess if you oversteered, in other games you can simply feel it with FFB and correct the wheel in time.

 

[zzz_pt]

Just shaved 2 tenths off my previous time. Now without CSA.

Seriously...

I'm just lazy. Let me be lazy.

 

[phil_75]

My point is that it's not true that CSA makes you faster. Well, maybe half a tenth or a tenth.

1,5sec is simply due to inconsistency. Especially with a Gr.1 around one of the most technical tracks in the game (Nurb GP).

I've tested both CSA on and off around Interlagos and Maggiore (both quite technical) and my times differ by a tenth, max.

Oh yeah I agree but the fact remains I went 1.5 secs quicker than I could manage without, putting me way higher up the grid in all races.
I don't think its a good thing because "it allows others to be cleaner with less mistakes" as some think.
I think its the opposite, it is putting "inferior" racers in with better ones.

They did one great lap with assistance but when it comes to the race they are the ones bumping you from behind every corner and exit point, or divebomb down the inside because they are used to having more grip in those places or think they can make it round much faster than you. (obviously this doesn't mean everbody that uses csa)

Its not showing their true driver level and the whole point of a driver rating using csa, but then you can argue that using DS4 is not showing the true driver level (wheel and pedals) or that the poor tyre model isn't showing a person's true driver level, or even playing a game/sim isn't showing...you get the point so i don't know.

Edit, just looked at today's Daily c top10, the top 6 or 7 have refused to show their replay and the ones that do are using CSA when they don't normally.
So now we are at a point where the top10 use it so it becomes ok and fair.

 

[Stotty]

Oh yeah I agree but the fact remains I went 1.5 secs quicker than I could manage without,

The slower you are, the more it helps.

As @zzz_pt has demonstrated, for fast drivers it makes little difference to absolute speed.

 

[superwally]

👍

This has always been the trick to going quickly in GT... there's a direct correlation between minimising understeer and how hard you can get on the gas. Less steering angle = more throttle (and vice versa).

It's why the fastest laps look so unexciting.

What CSA does is allow you to use a fraction more throttle for a given steering angle without you losing traction... it's a super effective low speed TC.

Yes to all of that. One reason I stopped using CSA was to force myself to learn the low speed/tight corner handling. It's difficult! Despite all my years of playing GT I have never quite sorted it. I have always been quick in mid or rear engine cars and struggle otherwise. I steer with the throttle! You guys turn the wheel? I'll have to try that....

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm in the "who cares" camp.

I'm always slower with CSA and TCS. I turn them on, improve my times slightly, then turn them off and improve the time slightly again. The aids help with various situations, but you have more control over the car without them. It's up to you to figure out which option works for you.

All my wins are with aids off.

The only thing that I think will get you more wins is patience and practice.

 

[BSDShoes]

i never use CSA except for when I had trouble with the Gr3 Huracan (and the Aston Martin Vulcan), seems CSA makes MR cars drive like a FR.

I see a lot of top 10 replays with CSA enabled, so it must be helping.

 

[Stotty]

Yes to all of that. One reason I stopped using CSA was to force myself to learn the low speed/tight corner handling. It's difficult! Despite all my years of playing GT I have never quite sorted it. I have always been quick in mid or rear engine cars and struggle otherwise. I steer with the throttle! You guys turn the wheel? I'll have to try that....

I learnt it before CSA existed back in GT5P/5, running WRS time trails week after week.

I'm 50 years old now, reactions maybe aren't what they once were, and the non-linear throttle is a complete PITA.

I know what you mean about steering from the rear! Unfortunately on-line settings are fixed, and all the cars are hobbled by stupidly high levels of rear toe and LSD decel to enable the average player to get them round the track without crashing on every corner... understeer is the name of the game in GTS.

If tuning were allowed, you could get rid of this, and reduce the LSD accel (also far too high on most cars), to end up with something that had a much more realistic balance (more entry/mid corner rotation) AND had less propensity for snap oversteer on the exits.

 

[zzz_pt]

Edit, just looked at today's Daily c top10, the top 6 or 7 have refused to show their replay and the ones that do are using CSA when they don't normally.
So now we are at a point where the top10 use it so it becomes ok and fair.

Went there and put a top10 lap with ABS only. Replay is available.

My lap might go down though as it's only top10.

No crazy lines either BTW.

Edit: don't know why the replay isn't available yet. Well, the picture is above with the aids turned off and the time set.

Rick set the top1 time without aids and crazy lines too. The replay is up.

 

[Robben]

No crazy lines either BTW.

 

[zzz_pt]

Thought it was relevant to mention because the top times (without replay) are using those lines for sure. ^^

 

[PJTierney]

Quoting David Sirlin, because that's a fun thing to do sometimes

Criteria of a Ban
A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted.

Enforceable:

• This one's easy, as assists can be restricted by Polyphony with the race settings.

Discrete:

• This one's easy too, CSA is a manually-enabled option in the Driver Settings menu, so it's easy for Polyphony to track if it's being used by players (and if it's restricted via race Settings this is impossible anyway).

Warranted:

• This is the tricky one.
• It's not a bug or a glitch, so Sirlin's paragraphs about that don't apply here. The answer instead may lie in the next section:

“It’s Too Good!”
[...]

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.

It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare.

The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point.

Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for.

So, some questions to bring to this thread:

1. Is Counter-Steer Assist definitively a setting that will make players succeed more often than those that don't use it?
2. Is Counter-Steer Assist not only [1], but so effective that players who do not use it will "never" win?

Look at these questions not in terms of "which setting is the most fun to drive" but rather "which setting is the most effective in a competitive environment".

 

[phil_75]

Went there and put a top10 lap with ABS only. Replay is available.

My lap might go down though as it's only top10.

View attachment 710648
View attachment 710649

No crazy lines either BTW.

Edit: don't know why the replay isn't available yet. Well, the picture is above with the aids turned off and the time set.

Rick set the top1 time without aids and crazy lines too. The replay is up.

Yeah but you're an Alien, you could get in the top10 using a keyboard

 

[QTheRacer_31]

Just shaved 2 tenths off my previous time. Now without CSA.
View attachment 710640

Seriously...

I'm just lazy. Let me be lazy.

Lazy corner cutter... Haha! “No crazy lines” I wish I could be lazy and fast like you Rick!

Now come top the charts here if you haven’t done so yet!

 

[Nick Cannella]

What difference does it make to anyone if I choose to race with all, some or none of the built in assists that are in the GAME. That’s right, it’s a game for simulated racing. If I can be more consistent with it on, be a better driver for those racing with me, then good. I’m not the best driver out there, look at my stats, but I have a lot of fun with THE GAME. It’s a game for Pete’s sake. How I or anyone chooses to use it is up to them.

 

[zzz_pt]

Yeah but you're an Alien, you could get in the top10 using a keyboard

I wish ^^ Actually I need a good bunch of laps to pull a great one out. Aliens do it in 10 or 20 minutes I guess, and consistently.

Lazy corner cutter... Haha! “No crazy lines” I wish I could be lazy and fast like you Rick!

Now come top the charts here if you haven’t done so yet!

I might go there later in the day at least to Maggiore.

 

[NosOsH]

Just want to clarify that i never judged you for that crazy tight lagos lap in that "Other" thread. Honestly it was eye opening. And on this same topic, you are definately legit fast. Also get where some people are coming from with using aids because of laziness.
I just know how hard it is to stay clean and claw your way out of Dr B into low A and then knowing full well Ill have to now compete against much faster players who also use the aids.. that Ill probably end up relegated back to B as well if i cant continue upping the game in turn.

 

[polizei]

I've never tried CSA, but I'm laughing at the "resting my arms" excuse. How out of shape are you that a game makes your arms tired?

I've done hours of racing with a wheel and never had tired arms and I'm no fitness model. If it's truly an issue you probably have a really poor ergonomic setup.

 

[Stotty]

Q

1. Is Counter-Steer Assist definitively a setting that will make players succeed more often than those that don't use it?
2. Is Counter-Steer Assist not only [1], but so effective that players who do not use it will "never" win?

1. Yes (for the vast majority)
2. No

 

[QTheRacer_31]

I've never tried CSA, but I'm laughing at the "resting my arms" excuse. How out of shape are you that a game makes your arms tired?

I've done hours of racing with a wheel and never had tired arms and I'm no fitness model. If it's truly an issue you probably have a really poor ergonomic setup.

My hands want to die after a 5-6 hour stream. Probably my wheel stand not being completely adjustable. So I can relate to that.

And he said he’s lazy

 

[Voodoovaj]

i never use CSA except for when I had trouble with the Gr3 Huracan (and the Aston Martin Vulcan), seems CSA makes MR cars drive like a FR.

I see a lot of top 10 replays with CSA enabled, so it must be helping.

Flawed logic.

CSA is also enabled by default when you choose the expert setting, so they may simply be playing the game as it is presented to them. Since it seems it's debatable whether it really helps or hinders, and they've become accustomed to it, they could simply leave it as it.

By the same logic, there's top 10 replays without it, so then it MUST be slowing people down. (but that's not true either).

I'm at 77 wins without it, so obviously it isn't necessary for a win.


The reality is, the only reason we are even debating it is because it's an accessible option. If it were on by default and not accessible, you wouldn't know about it and it wouldn't bother anyone. If it makes you faster, use it. If it slows you down, turn it off.

 

[AdamA998]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't even notice it. I don't use it at all. Tried it once with the 458 on weak. Don't remember if I noticed a difference, it was far back. I just prefer the car's normal driving characteristics. I use either TC 2 or 0 depending on what track and what car. That's the only assist including the obvious pretty much mandatory ABS.

 

[zzz_pt]

I've never tried CSA, but I'm laughing at the "resting my arms" excuse. How out of shape are you that a game makes your arms tired?

I've done hours of racing with a wheel and never had tired arms and I'm no fitness model. If it's truly an issue you probably have a really poor ergonomic setup.

I've won 1h30 resistance races online where only ABS was allowed too. But I notice I can relax more with CSA. And because I'm lazy, I often turn it on.

Either you find that a poor excuse or not, it's up to you. What I know (and have shown) is that I don't use CSA to be faster.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I just know how hard it is to stay clean and claw your way out of Dr B into low A and then knowing full well Ill have to now compete against much faster players who also use the aids.. that Ill probably end up relegated back to B as well if i cant continue upping the game in turn.

I have come to the deduction that if the game allows it and you like playing the game then you play the game. If CSA makes a driver faster then there is no different within the game than choosing the car that is the fastest on that track to use.

Whether I agree something should or should not be allowed or should or should not be legal at the end of the day is of no difference if the game I am choosing to play sees and allows otherwise.

So if you are truly an A class driver then you will remain in that ranking, if you are not then you will go back down to B. Trying to use CSA as the excuse of why you or may not remain there is just that an excuse. If you think CSA makes a driver faster then employ it but at the end of the day you use what the game allows that is legal within the rules.

As long as the game allows it other players will employ anything within the rules that they think will give them an edge. Either join them or accept they may be faster as a result but their aids are not unfair, just allowed.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Traction control is both permitted and highly adjustable in GT3 cars in reality.

Personally I have no issue with anyone using whatever aids they want to be able to complete in GTS, if it not being 'real' is an issue for some then GTS has much bigger issues that should be looked at first.

Whilst I agree with this. TC and ABS should be prohibited in GRP.4 sport mode races. Otherwise what is the point of having GT3 & GT4 knock offs? There should be a level where you have to do it on your own.

 

[kilesa4568]

One question about CSA weak. If it never flashes red, is it not kicking in for a correction? I've seen it flashing like a christmas tree on strong but I don't think I've ever seen it flash on weak. Do you have to lean on it hard for it to work?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Whilst I agree with this. TC and ABS should be prohibited in GRP.4 sport mode races. Otherwise what is the point of having GT3 & GT4 knock offs? There should be a level where you have to do it on your own.

A factory road going Prius has ABS in this day an age, so at what point should ABS not be allowed on any modern production car?

 

[QTheRacer_31]

Whilst I agree with this. TC and ABS should be prohibited in GRP.4 sport mode races. Otherwise what is the point of having GT3 & GT4 knock offs? There should be a level where you have to do it on your own.

On your own? I don’t get that logic honestly. I may turn on TCS but my pace will be affected by my lines and braking points/throttle inputs...

When you use TCS, what you want to avoid is to have it kick in and kill your speed. You still need to be driving your car smartly...

It’s going to help with weird car movements. (I call them “****roen” moments in the Citroën Gr.3)

I don’t use assists in most cars below N700. I feel like Mr. Testosterone