Why CSA is just ridiculous and should be banned for wheels

[JacksHerer]

For me, the excitement of racing against humans is that we can all make mistakes. With CSA on you need to make a ridiculous mistake for it to even register.

Racing for me is risk vs gain.

Run 1:20 laps with the high chance of a 10 second accident, vs run 1:22 second laps and the occasional 1:21 lap when need be to defend or attack.
That is what is fun about racing to me, putting pressure on a car ahead, calculating risk.

 

[barkohba]

Seeing the ammount of people that jump to defend this CSA is quite alarming and tells a sad story about the future of GTS. And here's why:

First, let's deal with the technical aspects of CSA. Unlike all other aides in this game (TC, ABS, ASM), this aid does NOT exist in real life - it actually only exist in competitions for R/C cars, curiously, bot that has nothing to do with motorsport. So ok, it's not real, but what's the issue with it? GT games have always prided themselves as being "Real" simulators, and at the very least a good tool to get the hang of driving fast, learning something from it. GTS, indeed, has fallen a bit behind as far as physics go, when compared to the likes of Assetto Corsa or iRacing (PC2 is not realistic as many people THINK, but that's a different conversation) - however they have been improving things in the latest patches, which is nice, I'm enjoying the realistic physics more with each patch.

The issue with CSA is actually just lies in one instance - the daily/championship races , or rather only the Championship races. These FIA approved online championships should be 100% about competition, driver skill, etc because there's also a REAL prize at stake. CSA basically counter steers for you - and that's a huge problem, because in real life racing, the biggest enemy of any driver is his lack of attention and fast reflexes in key moments throught a race. Many, many times a result of a race is determined by how good and consistend is one driver vs another. And with CSA, it's really hugely more difficult to spin out than without it. This creates 2 problems: 1) As far as the nature of GTS goes, this is a completely unrealistic aid that does not exist in real life, and 2) Creates an unfair advantage for some people in FIA championships, because it renders them immune to mistakes.

You might say that ANYONE can turn it on. True. But I don't know about you - i love sim racing, and I love getting as much realism out of them as possible, and even though, of course GTS is not perfect (no sim game is) - CSA takes a huge bite out of any semblence of reality and makes the cars behave very very weird - almost NFS territory weird - because it holds your hand and automatically applies counter steer for you. This makes many racers not want to use it because we want authentic feel for the game we bought - and gives an unfair advantage to many gamers. These gamers not only get an advantage by throwing the car around mercilessly without the risk of spinning out - but they're also missing out on fine-tuning their counter steering skill and a better feel about their newly achieved level of driving.

People talking about other aides, like TC and ABS for instance, at least as far as (real-life) GT4, GT3, GT300, GTE, SpuerGT500 and LMP 1 & 2 cars (some of these categories are equivalent to Gr4, Gr3 and Gr1), TC and ABS are both allowed. TC does NOT give you an unfair advantage because unless you learn to finely tether the throttle of a car, you will never exist out of a corner with TC on vs TC off - but there's a risk of spinning out untill you harness that skill. And ABS off - technically you can stop much faster with it off, or at least to Weak (i use it and I can confirm it) - but you do need to modulate it quite well in order to make sure you don't end up locking the tires and going into the bushes. (ABS off is WAY too hard core for me in GTS - in PC2 for instance it feels like ABS Weak in GTS).

A solution for this problem should be presented by Polyphony. the very existence of CSA in FIA online championships is really weird. They should address that, I consider. And what they could do, is an option similar to PC2 - Aides set on "Authentic". This way each cars will only have their realistic analogue aides available. That means for instance nu ABS for the Ferrari F40. It's really annoying at the moment that you have to set the ABS level before starting a race. In GT racing in real life, you can adjust the ABS on the fly, like you can do the TC, Fuel Map, Break Balance, etc in GTS. They should change that.

Anyway, that's my "TLR" ))

 

[Mr616]

I would rather have more players playing and being competitive (and safer on track). If that means they use CSA so be it. I've tried it but don't like the feel of it. Unless you are watching replays, you don't know who is and isn't using it anyway.

The only real issue I have with it, is when it breeds over confidence and over driving which then starts impacting other players in the lobby.

I get why people don't like it, but I'd take a bigger matchmaking pool, and drivers who are keeping the cars under control. GTS is not a hardcore sim. It's marketed for the masses.

Maybe in DR:A & S it should be restricted but I'm pretty indifferent. Play how you want and if it makes players play safer, great.

 

[zzz_pt]

CSA is just as realistic as the tire model / FFB you get from the tires / non linear throttle / stock setups, especially LSD.

But of course people are concerned about CSA and not the others (well some people have spoken about a few of those), which are just as, if not more, important if anyone wants to bring the "realism" into the conversation.

I drove a 1:31:189 in the 919 yesterday at Monza without aids (accept ABS) and I suspect the real car doesn't lose grip as easily out of corners*. Nor does it spin its rear wheels in 6th gear. But in the game it does... Go figure.

*I tried TCS on and the car still spins. Not as easily but when it does, it comes without warning at all.

 

[sabamber]

The behaviour of the steering when using CSA *does* exist in real life though, through caster. In real life a steering system will always tend to self centre and right itself when out of shape.

Turn a gentle corner in your car, then let go of the wheel at the end of the corner- does the steering naturally come central? That's caster and that's also CSA!

Ever gone properly sideways in a car in real life? If you have then you'll notice the steering wheel naturally turns into the slide due to the way suspension systems work and CSA is an *attempt* at replicating this. The only car I know that doesn't do this is the ford sierra and that's why it was so dangerous!

I'm not sure if FFB wheels do this anyway (DS4 user) but for me CSA adds back that little bit of realism I lose by not having caster feedback.

 

[Renrag39]

@sabamber So why not build it directly into the physics model, rather than have it as an option?
Just playing devils advocate because the effect appears to be more than self centering caster. It appears more 'active'.

 

[iFerrari]

In GTS cars are 2 to 3 seconds faster than real life counter parts and you guys are still here talking about realism and CSA, this game has much bigger problems right now to solve

 

[sabamber]

@sabamber So why not build it directly into the physics model, rather than have it as an option?
Just playing devils advocate because the effect appears to be more than self centering caster. It appears more 'active'.

Agreed it's a rather strange way of doing things and it's not a perfect implementation by any mean.
I can see how it could be viewed as an unfair advantage by some, but the fact it's available to anyone who plays puts it firmly in the "advantage" category rather than the "unfair advantage" category.

The grip big would be a great example of an unfair advantage. Using the RSR/M4/Megane (any "OP" car) would just be an advantage.

 

[GTWelsh]

Post Deleted.

I've said what I wanted to say. I'm going to avoid any further posting.

 

[Rinsky]

I think having assist tied into your DR rating would be a great idea.
The higher your DR the less assist options you should have all the way to DR S having no assist available

S. No Assist
A. ABS
B. ABS TC
C. ABS TC Drive line
D. ABS TC CSA Drive line
E. Full Assist

If you keep those assist turned on you will not advance to the next DR rating not until you do some race's without them on.
This would also put a greater meaning to your DR rating.
Unfortunately not enough people play Sport Mode to implement something like this because I have never been matched in a room where everyone had the same rating as of yet.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

TC does NOT give you an unfair advantage because unless you learn to finely tether the throttle of a car, you will never exist out of a corner with TC on vs TC off - but there's a risk of spinning out untill you harness that skill.

I at one time was in the camp that was against CSA.
I only used ABS and TCS at minimum I could get away with. I did some some personal unscientific testing with and without CSA and my results changed my opinion about CSA.

First anyone that makes a claim that you cannot spin a car out or it is very difficult to do so using just CSA would you please send me the the improved or upgraded version of the CSA that your game has that apparently my game does not have as I find that to not be an accurate statement.

With my testing switching between traction control and CSA what I found was CSA was actually a smoother better traction control than TCS itself.
If you watch the activation lights (test each independently) what I observed with my driving style was that the CSA actually engaged much less frequently and for a shorter duration than traction control set on a level of 2.

Also the CSA seemed to implement itself smoother and much less intrusively or noticeable than TCS as well. I can turn TCS off if using CSA or vice versa.

So basically for the way I drive the CSA seems to be a better traction control and no it will not allow me to just stomp on the gas and not spin out. I think that many making those claims have not really spent any time really seeing what this aid does or does not do because if they had they would not be making such bogus claims.

On most GR3 cars to drive out of a slow hairpin type of corner with the games base tune applied with an acceleration rate that would be competitive I need to use some type of traction control to be consistent over a full race distance. I find CSA is less intrusive, smoother and actually engages at a much lower rate of frequency than what TCS does.

With the way the game implements the TCS system and the CSA system used independently of any other systems I find the CSA system to be the least activated and smoother between the two while basically performing the same function for my use.

I do not turn actual faster times at all using CSA over not using it. I do though have less worry about spinning out coming out of a slow corner with EITHER TCS OR CSA engaged and will continue to use it as long as the game allows it.

Car classes below gr3 I do not find need to have the same aids applied as the instantaneous very sudden with no warning loss of grip resulting in a snap spin is not exhibited in the lower powered cars.

Perhaps if the game had a better physics model for a tires progression of exceeding maximum grip level I would go back to being against the aid but what the game is currently using is not a realistic representation of knowing when that grip has been exceeded so using a game aid to compensate for such deficiency is in my opinion a reasonable work around until the game can improve relaying the message of when you are approaching exceeding maximum grip other than just going into a spin with no warning.

CSA does provide that very slight warning that is required. It is up to you to actually catch and adjust for the spin in time, the game does not save the car for you with some magical hand of god like many would like you to believe.

 

[BSDShoes]

I tested CSA with some cars, gained 2-3 seconds on some lap times with it on, definitely lets you attack corners more aggressively. CSA made cars like the NSX, 4C, 458 more stable. There was one point where I would see oversteering occur and I would correct it, but with CSA on I overcorrected and messed up, it played tricks on me.

My sister's SUV has some kind of CSA, when it starts to slip in the snow, the wheels automatically correct.

 

[barkohba]

I think having assist tied into your DR rating would be a great idea.
The higher your DR the less assist options you should have all the way to DR S having no assist available

S. No Assist
A. ABS
B. ABS TC
C. ABS TC Drive line
D. ABS TC CSA Drive line
E. Full Assist

If you keep those assist turned on you will not advance to the next DR rating not until you do some race's without them on.
This would also put a greater meaning to your DR rating.
Unfortunately not enough people play Sport Mode to implement something like this because I have never been matched in a room where everyone had the same rating as of yet.

Nah, I don't agree, though I get your point.

Thing is, ABS and TC are both allowed in the racing divisions which GTS emulates. "The Real Driving Simulator" should allow whatever is allowed in reality - what I would like is to be able to switch ABS on the fly (not just before the race) with up to 5 positions - but that's a different topic.

What is really kinda sad at the end of the day is the way people stand out to defend CSA. They keep tryin to justify it in many ways and it makes no sense. I'm an AVID Motorsport fan, and I really like to know all the details. No, CSA is definitely NOT an assist that can be found in ANY Motorsport OR road car - that is a fact, agree with it or not, I won't get into a debate on that because that's like debating a flat-Earther.

Now, of course I know why people are still defending CSA and try to pose it as something real, something that isn't really that much of an advantage, and basically ANY kind of justification of the type - if they would lose CSA, in, let's say, FIA online championship, you would instantly start to recognize all the users which played with CSA on by the fact that they would go off at almost any semi-hard turn or above.

Of course, that would be a HILARIOUS sight, and it would be amusing for a bit. But what will happen in reality, and the "CSA" advocates don't understand, is that they will be FORCED to improve their driving skills, learn what "manual" counter-steer is, and actually become much better drivers.

But alas, for trying to reach an as wider-audience-as-possible, PD decided to include this type of assist to make the game much much easier (yeah, I tried a Renault RS 01 GT3 with CSA and TC 0, and it was incredibly easy to throw it around without spinning it out - felt like NFS. It's basically the equivalent of TC 4 and above, without the traction penalty). And I get it, include a 90% Auto-Drive "assist" for all I care, but make proper online FIA championships authentic and don't allow "fake" assists that save your ass 10 times in a lap but don't give you any penalty. 0.2-0.5 s per lap is what you will typically get for a 4 to 6 km track (Nurburgring for instance would be somewhere at 2-3 seconds per lap). In a typical 10 lap FIA online race, that is a HUGE difference.

 

[barkohba]

I at one time was in the camp that was against CSA.
I only used ABS and TCS at minimum I could get away with. I did some some personal unscientific testing with and without CSA and my results changed my opinion about CSA.

First anyone that makes a claim that you cannot spin a car out or it is very difficult to do so using just CSA would you please send me the the improved or upgraded version of the CSA that your game has that apparently my game does not have as I find that to not be an accurate statement.

With my testing switching between traction control and CSA what I found was CSA was actually a smoother better traction control than TCS itself.
If you watch the activation lights (test each independently) what I observed with my driving style was that the CSA actually engaged much less frequently and for a shorter duration than traction control set on a level of 2.

Also the CSA seemed to implement itself smoother and much less intrusively or noticeable than TCS as well. I can turn TCS off if using CSA or vice versa.

So basically for the way I drive the CSA seems to be a better traction control and no it will not allow me to just stomp on the gas and not spin out. I think that many making those claims have not really spent any time really seeing what this aid does or does not do because if they had they would not be making such bogus claims.

On most GR3 cars to drive out of a slow hairpin type of corner with the games base tune applied with an acceleration rate that would be competitive I need to use some type of traction control to be consistent over a full race distance. I find CSA is less intrusive, smoother and actually engages at a much lower rate of frequency than what TCS does.

With the way the game implements the TCS system and the CSA system used independently of any other systems I find the CSA system to be the least activated and smoother between the two while basically performing the same function for my use.

I do not turn actual faster times at all using CSA over not using it. I do though have less worry about spinning out coming out of a slow corner with EITHER TCS OR CSA engaged and will continue to use it as long as the game allows it.

Car classes below gr3 I do not find need to have the same aids applied as the instantaneous very sudden with no warning loss of grip resulting in a snap spin is not exhibited in the lower powered cars.

Perhaps if the game had a better physics model for a tires progression of exceeding maximum grip level I would go back to being against the aid but what the game is currently using is not a realistic representation of knowing when that grip has been exceeded so using a game aid to compensate for such deficiency is in my opinion a reasonable work around until the game can improve relaying the message of when you are approaching exceeding maximum grip other than just going into a spin with no warning.

CSA does provide that very slight warning that is required. It is up to you to actually catch and adjust for the spin in time, the game does not save the car for you with some magical hand of god like many would like you to believe.

Can only speak for myself, but besides the testing that I've done - which showed me a consistent 0.4ish advantage on laps of about 5-6 km and last time I tested, 1.6-1.7s (!!!) on multiple Nurburgring 24h laps, you can always very easily find videos on youtube, some of them from really good world-class GTS players like Z28, who tested the aid and proved it faster (they run without it though).

Also, I tested the CSA thuroughly as well - It offers more stability than any level of TC up to 4, but obviously, without the torque penalty (which equals turn exit speed).

As far as physics, that's not really an adequate excuse. Whilst GTS isn't prefect - and I should mention, the latest 1.11 has done a LOT to improve the tire model and is very similar to Assetto Corsa as of now - using an unrealistic "kiddie support wheels" which save your ass multiple time in a track that would othewise allow another better driver to pass you due to his better attention and skill (and consistency) - ANY semblance of racing realism is completely thrown out the window when using CSA. It literally throws GTS on a road that has NFS as it's destination.

 

[_ApexPredator]

My sister's SUV has some kind of CSA, when it starts to slip in the snow, the wheels automatically correct.

Is it 4WD? That sounds more like intelligent diffs braking the wheel with least traction (most rotation) rather than an automatically applied counter steering force.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

ANY semblance of racing realism is completely thrown out the window when using CSA

Several ways to look at that I guess.
First off if you think sitting in front of your tv playing a video game in any way is reflective of an actual experience that a person gains from real life racing with the feedback, feeling and actual perception of speed and actually controlling a vehicle then you apparently have never experienced the real thing.

Secondly, If I have 3 large trees to cut down I can choose to use a hand saw or I can choose to use a chainsaw to do the same job. Am I less of a logger because I allowed the chainsaw to do part of the work or just smarter because I chose the most advanced tool available for the job at hand?

At the end of the day it is a game and IT will never be real and will always be in a virtual world subject to some programmers whim as to what does what within such game. I have found I like my training wheels and will use them as long as the game allows.

Sometimes using the best tools available for the job may be the actual smartest move!

 

[John Crellin]

Nah, I don't agree, though I get your point.

Thing is, ABS and TC are both allowed in the racing divisions which GTS emulates. "The Real Driving Simulator" should allow whatever is allowed in reality - what I would like is to be able to switch ABS on the fly (not just before the race) with up to 5 positions - but that's a different topic.

What is really kinda sad at the end of the day is the way people stand out to defend CSA. They keep tryin to justify it in many ways and it makes no sense. I'm an AVID Motorsport fan, and I really like to know all the details. No, CSA is definitely NOT an assist that can be found in ANY Motorsport OR road car - that is a fact, agree with it or not, I won't get into a debate on that because that's like debating a flat-Earther.

Now, of course I know why people are still defending CSA and try to pose it as something real, something that isn't really that much of an advantage, and basically ANY kind of justification of the type - if they would lose CSA, in, let's say, FIA online championship, you would instantly start to recognize all the users which played with CSA on by the fact that they would go off at almost any semi-hard turn or above.

Of course, that would be a HILARIOUS sight, and it would be amusing for a bit. But what will happen in reality, and the "CSA" advocates don't understand, is that they will be FORCED to improve their driving skills, learn what "manual" counter-steer is, and actually become much better drivers.

But alas, for trying to reach an as wider-audience-as-possible, PD decided to include this type of assist to make the game much much easier (yeah, I tried a Renault RS 01 GT3 with CSA and TC 0, and it was incredibly easy to throw it around without spinning it out - felt like NFS. It's basically the equivalent of TC 4 and above, without the traction penalty). And I get it, include a 90% Auto-Drive "assist" for all I care, but make proper online FIA championships authentic and don't allow "fake" assists that save your ass 10 times in a lap but don't give you any penalty. 0.2-0.5 s per lap is what you will typically get for a 4 to 6 km track (Nurburgring for instance would be somewhere at 2-3 seconds per lap). In a typical 10 lap FIA online race, that is a HUGE difference.

Why are you so concerned with how realistic the game is for me? Are you a wheel user or a DS4 user? It gets a little irritating to listen to people with $500 rigs with a steering wheel, pedals and a 40" screen 2ft from their face telling me that i shouldnt be using any driver aids.

as a DS4 user myself, i know how hard GR3 RWD cars can be out of corners as there is very little distance in the triggers to full throttle. some the aids are more useful for the controller and some are more useful for the wheel. No matter how you look at it, the playing field is not level when there are different steering input methods. These aids let the driver set up their car to be as competitive as possible. Why is that a bad thing?

 

[eminem09494]

Even Lucas Ordonez (the 1st GT Academy champion) uses CSA so please stop trashtalking.

 

[barkohba]

Several ways to look at that I guess.
First off if you think sitting in front of your tv playing a video game in any way is reflective of an actual experience that a person gains from real life racing with the feedback, feeling and actual perception of speed and actually controlling a vehicle then you apparently have never experienced the real thing.

Secondly, If I have 3 large trees to cut down I can choose to use a hand saw or I can choose to use a chainsaw to do the same job. Am I less of a logger because I allowed the chainsaw to do part of the work or just smarter because I chose the most advanced tool available for the job at hand?

At the end of the day it is a game and IT will never be real and will always be in a virtual world subject to some programmers whim as to what does what within such game. I have found I like my training wheels and will use them as long as the game allows.

Sometimes using the best tools available for the job may be the actual smartest move!

Well, "First off", that is a huge assumption and you're putting a lot of words in my mouth - which is not a civilized thing to do when having a discussion/debate. I have not made, in any way, anywhere, an analogy between the actual real thing and a simulation. That should be obvious within itself, I would say. There are however different levels of realism in terms of how close a "simulation" of driving comes to the real thing in concerns to different aspects - such as car physics on a track - that should ALSO be obvious, I would say.

"Secondly", I'm sorry, that logger analogy probably only works for yourself. If you play GTS just to "get the job done"...well to bad, you're not having as much fun as I'd think you COULD have. GTS/PC2/iRacing/any other car sim are made to be enjoyed and to "simulate" as much of the real thing as possible with what one can have at home. You can use whichever tool, but I think you're missing the WHOLE point of this conversation - the inital post and this whole thread has one idea: CSA, being an unrealistic aid that helps you and presents no penalties (unlike TC which helps when losing traction but takes away corner exit speed through traction), should NOT be allowed in FIA online championships (Manufacturers/Nations) because those actually have something at stake, are at the very least endorsed by FIA itself, and should be as simulation as possible within GT to show off a driver's skill - and with that I 100% agree. As far as lobby racing, offline racing, VR racing, or ANY other game mode in GTS, I think you could even use an aid that makes your car fly as far as i'm concerned.

 

[John Crellin]

I have not made, in any way, anywhere, an analogy between the actual real thing and a simulation. That should be obvious within itself, I would say.

What is really kinda sad at the end of the day is the way people stand out to defend CSA. They keep tryin to justify it in many ways and it makes no sense. I'm an AVID Motorsport fan, and I really like to know all the details. No, CSA is definitely NOT an assist that can be found in ANY Motorsport OR road car - that is a fact, agree with it or not, I won't get into a debate on that because that's like debating a flat-Earther.

using an unrealistic "kiddie support wheels" which save your ass multiple time in a track that would othewise allow another better driver to pass you due to his better attention and skill (and consistency) - ANY semblance of racing realism is completely thrown out the window when using CSA. It literally throws GTS on a road that has NFS as it's destination

Thing is, ABS and TC are both allowed in the racing divisions which GTS emulates. "The Real Driving Simulator" should allow whatever is allowed in reality - what I would like is to be able to switch ABS on the fly (not just before the race) with up to 5 positions - but that's a different topic.

Thing is, ABS and TC are both allowed in the racing divisions which GTS emulates. "The Real Driving Simulator" should allow whatever is allowed in reality - what I would like is to be able to switch ABS on the fly (not just before the race) with up to 5 positions - but that's a different topic.

this is all on the same page....

 

[barkohba]

Even Lucas Ordonez (the 1st GT Academy champion) uses CSA so please stop trashtalking.

Curiously enough, if you go to his Youtube channel, out of over 10 GTS online gameplay videos this is the only one where he uses it, and in the comment section you can find someone criticising him (in spanish) for using it and he replies with "hasta que le diga a Kaz que haga q sea más lento" which google translates into "until I tell Kaz to make it slower". Can't figure out exactly what that means, however a) it's the only video out of a doze where he has it activated and b) it doesn't change the fact that it is an aid purely exitent only in GTS and makes the car behave unnaturally because cars don't automatically counter-steer.

 

[super_gt]

GTS/PC2/iRacing/any other car sim are made to be enjoyed and to "simulate" as much of the real thing as possible with what one can have at home.

No.

 

[barkohba]

I think you're missing the whole point. The guys said that "sitting in front of your tv playing a video game in any way is reflective of an actual experience that a person gains from real life racing with the feedback, feeling and actual perception of speed and actually controlling a vehicle then you apparently have never experienced the real thing." - To which I rightly responded that I never said that racing simulation is a 1/1 thing, a direct ANALOGOUS of the real thing (use a dictionary). It is, obviously, a "racing sim" which is meant to "simulate" (use a dictionary again) as many aspects of the real thing as possible with the current tech.

 

[John Crellin]

I think you're missing the whole point. The guys said that "sitting in front of your tv playing a video game in any way is reflective of an actual experience that a person gains from real life racing with the feedback, feeling and actual perception of speed and actually controlling a vehicle then you apparently have never experienced the real thing." - To which I rightly responded that I never said that racing simulation is a 1/1 thing, a direct ANALOGOUS of the real thing (use a dictionary). It is, obviously, a "racing sim" which is meant to "simulate" (use a dictionary again) as many aspects of the real thing as possible with the current tech.

Im pretty sure those words dont mean what you thnk they mean....

a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē/
noun

1. a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
   "an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"
   • a correspondence or partial similarity.
     "the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
   • a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects.
     "works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

sim·u·late
ˈsimyəˌlāt/
verb
verb: simulate; 3rd person present: simulates; past tense: simulated; past participle: simulated; gerund or present participle: simulating

1. imitate the appearance or character of.
   "red ocher intended to simulate blood"
   synonyms: imitate, reproduce, replicate, duplicate, mimic More
   
   
   antonyms: real
   • pretend to have or feel (an emotion).
     "it was impossible to force a smile, to simulate pleasure"
     synonyms: feign, pretend, fake, sham, affect, put on, give the appearance of More
     
     
     antonyms: real
   • produce a computer model of.
     "future population changes were simulated by computer"
     
     
     
     now what did i miss?

 

[barkohba]

No.

I think you're confusing the intent of why they are made (GT until GT5 was considered a really good virtual simulation as far as games go), and the result of GTS in itself, which indeed, lags behind games like AC. However after 1.11, it is getting better, pretty fast. It is however the least realistic of the bunch, overall, indeed. But that's not PD intent, it's their partial failure, rather.

 

[barkohba]

a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē/
noun

1. a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
   "an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"
   • a correspondence or partial similarity.
     "the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
   • a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects.
     "works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

sim·u·late
ˈsimyəˌlāt/
verb
verb: simulate; 3rd person present: simulates; past tense: simulated; past participle: simulated; gerund or present participle: simulating

1. imitate the appearance or character of.
   "red ocher intended to simulate blood"
   synonyms: imitate, reproduce, replicate, duplicate, mimic More
   
   
   antonyms: real
   • pretend to have or feel (an emotion).
     "it was impossible to force a smile, to simulate pleasure"
     synonyms: feign, pretend, fake, sham, affect, put on, give the appearance of More
     
     
     antonyms: real
   • produce a computer model of.
     "future population changes were simulated by computer"
     
     
     
     now what did i miss?

There you go - "a correspondence or partial similarity." - meaning that it doesn't have to be, and I never said it is, IDENTICAL, it is a "partial similarity", but is not a complete analoguous, which brings us to "simulation", which is what it is, a simulation of something else/something real. Now, i challenge you to show me that simulation is something that is used anywhere in reality to the 100% identical experience as the real thing (of course it isn't) - there are distinct levels. And GTS has it's own level of realizing race driving simulation - which is not, for instance, at the same level with, say, iRacing. You're missing a lot of context, and an understanding of what is discussed. You are also missing a proper wheel for GTS, which makes your interventions quite irrelevant since i'm talking about harnessing your driver skills WITHOUT CSA. That does not, obviously, encompass someone playing with a controller, since IRL cars are controlled via wheels, paddles/shifters and pedals.

 

[John Crellin]

You are also missing a proper wheel for GTS, which makes your interventions quite irrelevant since i'm talking about harnessing your driver skills WITHOUT CSA. That does not, obviously, encompass someone playing with a controller.

the very existence of CSA in FIA online championships is really weird. They should address that, I consider. And what they could do, is an option similar to PC2 - Aides set on "Authentic". This way each cars will only have their realistic analogue aides available.

As much as i would like a rig setup, as a grad student i am just lucky to have a PS4 to begin with.

How is the above bolded statement not relevant to me?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Well, "First off", that is a huge assumption and you're putting a lot of words in my mouth - which is not a civilized thing to do when having a discussion/debate. I have not made, in any way, anywhere, an analogy between the actual real thing and a simulation.

There are however different levels of realism in terms of how close a "simulation" of driving comes to the real thing

Seems you have just contradicted yourself in the exact post claiming you have not "in any way, anywhere, an analogy between the actual real thing and a simulation.

Your second quote above directly states in terms of how close a simulation comes to the real thing. How much more of a comparison between the two one being a game or simulation the other being real life does it take to not be comparing one to the other?

"Secondly", I'm sorry, that logger analogy probably only works for yourself. If you play GTS just to "get the job done"...well to bad, you're not having as much fun as I'd think you COULD have.

I have loads of fun with the game and have logged well over 200 hours playing since launch. What fun you think I could be having in no way correlates to the amount of enjoyment I have gotten from the game thus far and is irrelevant to anyone but you thank you.

within GT to show off a driver's skill

By this statement you do actually mean a person sitting in front of a tv working an electronic control device controlling the direction of multiple pixels across a screen correct?

We would not accidentally want to confuse the actions of a person driving a real car on a real track from those of a person operating an electronic control device to control the image on a tv since we surely are not comparing one to the other.

 

[barkohba]

How is this statement not relevant to me?

After the FIA Test seasons are done (probably soon, it's already test season 10 i think) there will be proper FIA championships where the top players will be invited to test for their entry into GT Academy - this lays at the very core of GT, especially GTSport. It's the concept behind the game itself and why it's not called GT7. Now, I'm not saying you can't play with a controller, of course you can. But my point is that these championships should be as close to the real thing as the game possibly get, and that's why CSA needs to be thrown out of (only) the FIA online stuff.

Now I honestly don't know how fast one can be with a controller vs a wheel - but I can tell you that even if the answer is "much faster" - GT Academy would be irrelevant because if you spend 6 months playing GTS with a controller, it will be quite difficult replicating the same performance on a wheel - and I'm pretty sure the GT Academy guys know this obvious fact as well - therefore no, that statement is not relevant for you. The whole reason behind my intervention is to talk to people who want to compete for GT Academy (which is a REAL LIFE racing academy) and should be tested in the most realistic way the game allows (hence no CSA). A control input from a DS4 is unrealistic from the get-go for obvious reasons - real cars have wheels and pedals.

So you can stop the butt-hurting and go back enjoying your game. I am talking about a specific pool of gamers within GTS that play the FIA championships for the very reason they were created.

I would also highly encourage you to get yourself a sim rig - chair + wheels. You can find some good deals out there. You'll enjoy the game so much more.

 

[barkohba]

Seems you have just contradicted yourself in the exact post claiming you have not "in any way, anywhere, an analogy between the actual real thing and a simulation.

Your second quote above directly states in terms of how close a simulation comes to the real thing. How much more of a comparison between the two one being a game or simulation the other being real life does it take to not be comparing one to the other?



I have loads of fun with the game and have logged well over 200 hours playing since launch. What fun you think I could be having in no way correlates to the amount of enjoyment I have gotten from the game thus far and is irrelevant to anyone but you thank you.



By this statement you do actually mean a person sitting in front of a tv working an electronic control device controlling the direction of multiple pixels across a screen correct?

We would not accidentally want to confuse the actions of a person driving a real car on a real track from those of a person operating an electronic control device to control the image on a tv since we surely are not comparing one to the other.

I'll let you take up the "controlling the direction of multiple pixels" directly with the PolyphonyDigital and the GT Academy staff. Seem someone is completely unaware about the whole reason behind GTS and the FIA accreditation ad GT Academy involvement in the first place.

As far as my contradiction, it's clear that i'm talking about different levels of simulation but all you're interested in is proving something esle for the sake of proving you're somehow right.

I'm no longer interested in having a conversation with a toxic person such as yourself. Have fun controlling those pixels on the TV!