Why do people ignore...

  • Thread starter Thread starter MusicracerAu
  • 70 comments
  • 4,452 views
MusicracerAu

MusicracerAu

Messages
38
Australia
QLD
Messages
MusicRacer
This has probably been answered/discussed/argued before, but why do so many people ignore the REAL LIFE driving aids available in the real version of cars they race in GT, citing "realism"?

Almost all current GT and LMP cars feature real life traction control yet people usually refuse to allow it use in online races. Current GT3 cars also have ABS, yet again its use is usually prohibited

A car like the Deltawing was designed from the start to use traction control and relied on it heavily after the computer controlled torque vectoring differential proved troublesome under race conditions.

And finally almost all modern road cars use a combination of abs, traction control and dynamic stability (in some states here in Australia is it now required in all new cars sold) so why are people so anti them in a game??
 
On the one hand, there is the fact that the aids in the game(and likely in any game) are not truly accurate recreations of the real-world systems. They are only a loose approximation designed to produce a similar effect, with varying success. So the argument of one way or the other actually being more realistic isn't really that powerful since the real cars act differently in either case.

On the other hand, aids in real world racing are often allowed either because rmanufacturers demand it or because the lower-skilled but better-funded drivers needed to keep grids full want them. In some series certain systems are only allowed in cars that have at least one amateur driver in the lineup, all-pro cars can't use them. If these things were not an issue the rules might well be different.

Some drivers enjoy anything that helps them go faster, others prefer a more direct feeling of control. So despite the real-world counterparts having somewhat similar aids, every race in GT is effectively a series sanctioned by drivers only, so those drivers' opinions are what determines those rules.

In my personal opinion, there isn't all that much reason to disallow anything besides SRF and ABS(possibly active steering? ) inasmuch as the others don't really make you faster unless you are used to them and struggle without them, but cars relying on different aids tend to act quite differently on-track which can sometimes lead to confusion and incidents. As a non-ABS driver I see this firsthand quite often, since most rooms do allow that aid. So it is largely just a combination of personal taste and desiring as even a playing field as possible.
 
Dutchyfutch
Cause aids in computer games aren't as advanced as aids in the cars themselves
Click to expand...

This is a fair point with regards to TC. Usually ABS is modelled well enough in a game, but TC is somewhat of a black art which is incredibly hard to get any information or data on from teams. If the game in question has decent TC, I still think you should run it if the real car does, same goes for ABS.
 
Whoever goes on track with TCS or ESP ON does not deserve to be on that track. Nurburgring included.

In real life i track my cars ( E30 3L 6spd and M3 E46 ) the E30 has 300hp and no ABS nor TCS and its FINE. the M3 E46 goes on track and has Mtrack mode ( CSL specs ) that would be like SRF because it lets you go side ways and then lets you come back to a grip line but all this is done by the computer saying how the throttle should act... you can plant it ; it all get the car sideways and bring it back... SRF. not tcs... with TCS on ... you wont go anywhere ; if you do the brakes are the ones that act not the throttle.


if you look on youtube you will find the new BMW prototype steering ... its called DRIFTING WITH NO HANDS BMW. its even more that active steering.


but then again ... on a track ... its about driving not cumputer aids. you go there the first thing a real driver does on a moderne car is turn the traction controle off... on the E30 it took 30sec to pull the ABS relay out ; i would do the same on the E46 if it where easy to access ( a switch is to be in pplace in near futur ) hence you go on the track you want the information to be felt by your hands; ass; and feet.... and if you do need a computer aid to go round a track i would consider taking driving lessons.


whate ever the car ; there is a learning curve.. more or less easy to grasp ; going fast on a track does not mean full throttle all the time ...


in conclusion; for me ; if you do want to drive a car on a track you should do it with no aid ; but without triying to get the hot lap on the first lap of the day ..its all about taking the time and being regular... id rather have all my time .5 slower than another guy but have them all within .250 .5max of my best time. most of the time people are fat on one lap ; not regular..... so no aids does make you more regular as you have to be more carefull and you have lessa tendency to overpower bends and go in grass to spin out.


that only my point of view.
 
Seriously though, Active Steering doesn't appear to behave that way for me in GT games so i keep it off. It seems to almost steer for me and i feel like the cars doing most of the work. Maybe i'll turn it on the next time i use a BMW
 
86Debris86
Seriously though, Active Steering doesn't appear to behave that way for me in GT games so i keep it off. It seems to almost steer for me and i feel like the cars doing most of the work. Maybe i'll turn it on the next time i use a BMW
Click to expand...

You' re right, and in reality the BMW system behaves nowhere near the way active steering works in GT5 or GT6
(I actually have not used it at all in GT6). Personally I hate the way the car "feels" with active steering on and I tend to do much worse laps with it on. To the point that I wonder how can some guys use it and still achieve top 100 laps in TT's.
 
Seems to me that active steering has been in use for longer than that wiki entry. Didn't a Japanese mfg use it in a model that had "4 wheel steering" back in the 1990s? (The rear wheels as I recall, adjusted their response according to the speed of the vehicle). Granted I could be calling on muddled memories...

As for why many of us don't use aids, in my case, it's primarily because of social pressure from the forums traffic here and elsewhere, as otherwise I'd simply use whichever aids helped me to improve my laptimes
 
xiando
Seems to me that active steering has been in use for longer than that wiki entry. Didn't a Japanese mfg use it in a model that had "4 wheel steering" back in the 1990s? (The rear wheels as I recall, adjusted their response according to the speed of the vehicle). Granted I could be calling on muddled memories...

As for why many of us don't use aids, in my case, it's primarily because of social pressure from the forums traffic here and elsewhere, as otherwise I'd simply use whichever aids helped me to improve my laptimes
Click to expand...
I believe that article is about just the BMW application of Active Steering so yes, it could have been around earlier i suppose.

And for the record i use T/C on 1, if not off, ABS on 1 and keep everything else off. If the track's wet i'll turn them both up to 5 or 6. I generally try to find a setup for the car with suspension and LSD that makes the car behave the way i want to before i adjust driver aids.

If i'm using a car that handles well and i don't struggle with, i can't see how any interference could make me go any faster. I've tried with and without a whole host of different combinations of driver aids in various iterations of GT and have never gone faster than with as little aid as possible.
 
Greg330im
Whoever goes on track with TCS or ESP ON does not deserve to be on that track. Nurburgring included.
Click to expand...

What ever happened to 'live and let live'? If people want to use driving aids, that's their choice and everyone should respect that. The same applies to others like you who prefer driving without any or some aids. Be a bit more tolerant of others and you'll enjoy life more.
 
F1 cars have had and have plenty of computerised electronic aids, so I do not get to the point when someone compares real racing with games. And of course I do not mean that real racing and games are on the same level.
The only thing that really counts, in my opinion, is that a community of gamers may decide to apply or reject aids, rules, etc. Some people will agree some other people may not.
 
Greg330im
Whoever goes on track with TCS or ESP ON does not deserve to be on that track. Nurburgring included.
Click to expand...

So, all those racers who show up at tracks around the world on a weekly basis with cars that use TCS in series that allow TCS are somehow not deserving to be on the track? :rolleyes:

Truth is, over the years I've found the vast majority of assists chest beaters, and those who force off the "real" (SRF different animal) assists in lobbies aren't really some kind of ultra fundamentalist pure sim racers but rather people who use others use of assists as a excuse as to why they're not as fast as they feel they should be. In my experience, the real skilled players know that in the vast majority of cars that not running TCS and ABS is faster anyways. Nor do they feel the need add the words "no aids" to every post they ever make. Conversely, usually the loudest assist chest beaters are the ones who most need to turn them on.
 
yep.

either you build a car and it has a balanced out chassis/performance and it is good and does not need assists.
or you built a crap monster powered car with no chassis / performance thought and is probably going to be uterly useless.
then if you get Performance/chassis balance right.. you dont need assists ... you need kowhow.. its something that can be learned.
 
This is a great topic, and I am glad the OP brought it up, also some great supporting posts.

That said, the majority of people who are against the use of driving aids don't have any real-world experience to draw their opinions from. Part of my job is driving new cars from a majority of manufacturers. I am familiar with the traction control and dynamic stability modes used in many new cars and obviously the ABS systems in all new cars. Those who just drive their own car each day simply don't have the resources on hand to draw comparisons and opinions. Sorry, not hating but it is just the way it is.

In each of the high performance cars we test, when pushed near the limits they are very difficult to drive safely without those aids. You can turn them off and enjoy a much quicker and more raw experience but certainly not on the street.

GT has not been able to simulate the way a car reacts without those aids both in near-limits of adhesion and also in recovery techniques. Applying throttle in many cars in the game is like turning on a light switch which is not what you get in the real-world. I know that the seat of the pants feel in real-world driving cant be replicated in a game, but they can certainly simulate weight transfer and IMO the way cars break loose in these games is much too rapid and violent.

So, I believe the best compromise between an enjoyable gaming experience and somewhat true-to-life driving game, is use a little bit of traction control, some ABS, and in cars that are way too tail-loose like the flawed MR cars, some ASM is ok. SRF and Active steering is not realistic so I don't use them.

I don't agree with the ban on aids and I support any gamer who wants to use them to filter out the incorrect physics of many of the cars in the game.
 
fordskydog
Prove it.
Click to expand...
How would I prove that if I have 0 info on race teams . It's been kind of proven in this topic when they were talking about then delta wing. With TC off and a stiffer suspension setup you're faster than with TC on , but this car runs an advanced tc system . So that would be unrealistic

Plus it's like identical for every vehicle in the game, it just decreases the amount of force the pedal is pressed down on the car


86Debris86
Using T/C and ABS is fine but show me a real life car with "Skid Recovery Force" or "Active Steering" as it's implemented in GT. Or even at all.
Click to expand...
Volvo parking systems :sly:
 
Last edited:
Vegard
The only evidence needed to see that the GT-assists are inaccurate is the fact that they are identical for all vehicles.
Click to expand...

The point of this thread is the ban on driving aids. And in some cars that would not be available based on year of manufacture with driving aids your point has some validity. For modern cars equipped with those aids, the basis is there, and yes, PD should model the amount of intrusion model by model.
 
JMR450
The point of this thread is the ban on driving aids. And in some cars that would not be available based on year of manufacture with driving aids your point has some validity. For modern cars equipped with those aids, the basis is there, and yes, PD should model the amount of intrusion model by model.
Click to expand...
Well first they need to fix the tire model in the rain , the sloppy negative camber fail etc... Lol

sid_chiclana
You may be right there bro, as some people really struggle with that one :(
Click to expand...
Abs does really bring an issue sometimes .....
 

Latest Posts

Back