Why is most of the GTPlanet community so Un-Grateful?

[Perkel]

Well, my opinion is constructive criticism is way better than Dissapoitment threads.

Kaz and Team behind GT constantly improve GT5 to our needs and i'm megahappy with that.

 

[Rudenut]

I am grateful for continued updates and available dlc to purchase. This fact has nothing to do with the various things that I believe still need improvement. GT5 is the only console game I regularly play as I am a pc gamer mostly. Console gaming and players are fairly new to the game of dlc and updates and I can understand why many people do not understand the player/dev dynamic. The ability to update a game through patches, along with the stated intent of a developer to continue supporting that game with ~monthly patches will bring input from the user base. The game is never really finished in this environment.

PD honestly wants, I believe, to bring it's fans the best product they can deliver. I believe that a successful dev team values the opinions and constructive criticism of it's user base. This paradigm is the new normal and is, in part what has allowed Blizzard, among other devs, to maintain a huge user base in all of their recent games. I would get used to other peoples opinions, and form effective arguments against the ones you do not agree with.

Calling people ungrateful because they are sharing their ideas for improving the game they love is not the way....I believe.

Edited for clarification error.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I am grateful for continued updates and available dlc to purchase. This fact has nothing to do with the various things that I believe still need improvement. GT5 is the only console game I regularly play as I am a pc gamer mostly. Console gaming and players are fairly new to the game of dlc and updates and I can understand why many people do not understand the player/dev dynamic. The ability to update a game through patches, along with the stated intent of a developer to continue supporting that game with ~monthly patches will bring input from the user base. The game is never really finished in this environment.

PD honestly wants, I believe, to bring it's fans the best product they can deliver. I believe that a successful dev team values the opinions and constructive criticism of it's user base. This paradigm is the new normal and is, in part what has allowed Blizzard, among other devs, to maintain a huge user base in all of their recent games. I would get used to other peoples opinions, and form effective arguments against the ones you do not agree with.

Calling people ungrateful because they are sharing their ideas for improving the game they love is not the way....I believe.

Edited for clarification error.

Very true. But I still think PD only listens with one ear.

I stand by my statement that if Kaz/PD was gone and a new studio took over GT for GT6 it would be much better.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I think the problem, at least for a few people, is that they boil the issue down to a black and white one, where people who aren't enamoured with the latest update or DLC are "ungrateful". Someone can be disappointed (see the, er, disappointment thread), without being ungrateful.

Take the Standard car wheel changes. I'm happy they're added, but at the same time, they really shouldn't have taken over a year to include in the game, especially as they just use already existing wheels. I'm happy I can finally have different wheels on my 800 last-gen cars, but I do still miss GT4's very cool Today's Special option. Therefore, disappointment, but I'm still grateful to have got the update at all, because an incredibly late one is better than nothing.

Plenty of communities devoted to a particular series play host to rabid fans, but GT seems to have plenty more of the "dare not speak ill" sort. It is possible to be critical of a game, even disappointed, while remaining a fan. Someone else said it best (I can't remember who): I am a GT fan, but not necessarily a huge GT5 fan.

The bolded part I think the opposite is true, it is more the "speak ill" sort which some people get fed up with and create threads like this. If it was "dare not speak ill" sort then the GT5 feedback section on this site would not be so big as everything would be perfectly fine . The other rival game fans on this site seem to be more towards the "dare not speak ill" sort even presented with video evidence of the problems.

 

[NotSoSilentBob]

Most people on forums are going to complain when they don't get it their way. The vocal minority are going to speak out to change something to their way. People aren't going to defend something when they are busy playing it.

 

[evilKnoxville]

I think people are unhappy because when a game is priced at $60 (even more for the collector's and signature editions) there are so many features that feel unfinished or afterthoughts, too many to list.

A friend of mine just recently started his gran turismo career with GT5. He is quite happy with the game as he is not missing any content from previous GT games. He is not complaining about late seasonals, he is not staying awake just to install a *** patch, he is not refreshing the PSN store every minute just to see if a DLC went online, etc.

I'm a bit different; but I am reading here and he is not

btw $60 is the average price you pay for a game; I think it is too much per se, but hail to the margin ...

 

[Tornado]

The other rival game fans on this site seem to be more towards the "dare not speak ill" sort even presented with video evidence of the problems.

You should tell the whole story when you make posts like this.

 

[xxDingerxx]

Tell you what, reading some of this makes me laugh....

PD are useless, PD should just take a leaf out of other developers books etc.

Like who?. There 2 biggest rivals?

The 1st withholds content at release to charge as DLC. Not to mention a problem arises with their no assist mode having assists. Solution, deny it at first and delete threads to hide problem. Then blame the wheel manufacturer before finally owning up.

The 2nd is a company that thinks a problem shouldn't be fixed by an update but rather release the fixes for a sequel to earn extra cash.

Brilliant...

PD however. How awful they are. Update after update, that combined file sizes rivals other games total size and doing this in the aftermath of an earthquake, tsunami and getting extremely close to a nuclear fallout.

B*stards....

 

[Terronium-12]

The 1st withholds content at release to charge as DLC.

You mean exactly like PD just did with the Scirocco?

Also, it pay dividends on your end if you bothered to know how their DLC is planned out.

PD however. How awful they are. Update after update, that combined file sizes rivals other games total size and doing this in the aftermath of an earthquake, tsunami and getting extremely close to a nuclear fallout.

You know as awful as that incident was, I am sick to death of people using that to justify any and everything PD has done, or the lack thereof. It's a fallback excuse and nothing more, stop harping on a tragic event to strengthen an already flawed argument. Tell me, with all of these updates, where are all the features that still haven't made it into the game? Where are the features that were in Prologue that have mysteriously disappeared?

For that matter, tell me why the Apex book displays scenarios that you simply have no way of replicating, or why the game continues to show locations that you have no way of getting to.

 

[CSLACR]

Wow, you'd think you were tied to a chair and forced to play this game...

Really...Do you lose sleep at night worrying about which side of the car they modeled it for? Somalian-type DLCs? So you have to pirate them, or are you starving while deciding between which of your twenty PS3 games to play on your 42" flat-screen TV or just posting another rant from your iPhone? Sharing? Can't you play this game and actually win some of these prizes, or do you have to beg for a hand-out? Does anyone really have a neuroses about desiring a car that has 300 more horsepower than another car that will already slaughter the AI competition? Wah...the shadows aren't perfect; let me guess, you refuse to sleep with supermodels that might have a pimple on the ass? I can understand, as it's tough to demand perfection from things you had no part of creating, and couldn't in a million years. Want better sound? Go outside your house and listen to the traffic, or fiddle with the game settings or buy some real speakers...I mean, is it all worth shouting about?

That's why so many of us hate whiners and the whingers.

Well if you look at it from the "we have better lives then some people" point of view then PS3 games be damned, we should be praising our Gods for having electricity.
However that sort of mindset (Pure complacency) does nothing for the improvement of technology or games in general.
Also, just a particular note on the "want better sound, go outside" bit, one could also play most any other new(ish) racing title to find better sound as well.
So you see, just because life could be worse doesn't mean anyone shouldn't strive for better. If we all thought that way life as we know it would be much more similar to the stone age.

You forgot the "rinse and repeat" technique practised by many members here.

And the pot called the kettle black.


Edit: As for the tsunami bit, I'm pretty sure GT5 was a disappointment looooong before that ever happened. It's a terrible thing that did happen, but it certainly doesn't explain why GT5 was the awful game it was at release, old and tired as said above me.

 

[xxDingerxx]

You mean exactly like PD just did with the Scirocco?

Can you prove that it was a completed model ready for release???

Prologue that have mysteriously disappeared?

For that matter, tell me why the Apex book displays scenarios that you simply have no way of replicating, or why the game continues to show locations that you have no way of getting to.

Just because something is in prologue doesn't automatically mean its in the full game. I mean does every feature included in a game appear in a sequel...No.

Also, what scenario's are you referring too?

Oh, while you maybe tired of people you think are using the earthquake as an excuse, I am sick to death of idiots who think it had no effect. Hell, America wanted the world to shut down when two buildings were brought down. Now think what its like when entire towns are flattened and wondering if your downwind of a nuclear fallout. I think a computer game may have been a low priority

 

[CSLACR]

Can you prove that it was a completed model ready for release???



Just because something is in prologue doesn't automatically mean its in the full game. I mean does every feature included in a game appear in a sequel...No.

Also, what scenario's are you referring too?

Oh, while you maybe tired of people you think are using the earthquake as an excuse, I am sick to death of idiots who think it had no effect. Hell, America wanted the world to shut down when two buildings were brought down. Now think what its like when entire towns are flattened and wondering if your downwind of a nuclear fallout. I think a computer game may have been a low priority

What does any of that have to do with GT5's release state?

Also - Prologue - You do realize that's supposed to be a taste of what's to come right? That's the definition of the word. So when things get removed that everyone likes from the prologue, they may be a bit upset, go figure.

You wanna bring up the stuff on the back of my GT5 case that I still don't have and/or can't use?

 

[Terronium-12]

Can you prove that it was a completed model ready for release???

Yep. Took me a while to find this:

Kaz has already said it, in a famitsu interview. Also an user here on GT Planet had asked kaz about the car (before that interview) , and Kaz gave him the same answer ( that the car didn't make it in time by a small margin) . I will quote a post of another user ( in another thread ) , that has both links for that interview , and that post on Twitter .



From that interview:


"Are there cars you regret not including due to limited development time?

Yamauchi: yes, there are many. For example the Volkswagen Scirocco didn't get included just by a small margin. Regarding race cars, an example is the Jaguar XJR9; I also feel mortified that the Ferrari 365GTB/4 (Ferrari Daytona) which was even in pamphlet photos wasn't included."

Just because something is in prologue doesn't automatically mean its in the full game. I mean does every feature included in a game appear in a sequel...No.

Except GT5 isn't a sequel to GT5: P, it's the full-fledged version of what Prologue displayed. Omitting features that worked, omitting features that the mass audience liked is both stupid and nonsensical.

Of which GT5 is full of - nonsensical decisions.

Re-introducing Performance Points after the mass of early adopters were likely already through the A-spec events attests to that.

Also, what scenario's are you referring too?

For one (that I can remember), there's at least two, three photo inserts of the SLS with it's doors open. Being an in-game model, that's basically false advertisement.

Oh, while you maybe tired of people you think are using the earthquake as an excuse, I am sick to death of idiots who think it had no effect. Hell, America wanted the world to shut down when two buildings were brought down. Now think what its like when entire towns are flattened and wondering if your downwind of a nuclear fallout. I think a computer game may have been a low priority

I'm not sure of the point you're attempting to prove.

 

[adyspadey]

eek a 40yr old man complaining about complainers .... why is the GT5 community full of whingers ?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Can you prove that it was a completed model ready for release???

By that same token, can you about another game?

Just because something is in prologue doesn't automatically mean its in the full game. I mean does every feature included in a game appear in a sequel...No.

See what CSLACR said - Prologue definitely should've been a hint of what to expect, given the name.

Though I suppose one likely excuse/reason we don't have the leaderboards we had in Prologue (past a handful of Seasonals) may be because the servers now have so much more data to deal with.

 

[xxDingerxx]

What does any of that have to do with GT5's release state?

Also - Prologue - You do realize that's supposed to be a taste of what's to come right? That's the definition of the word. So when things get removed that everyone likes from the prologue, they may be a bit upset, go figure.

You wanna bring up the stuff on the back of my GT5 case that I still don't have and/or can't use?

Since when in the OP is it referring to the release state?. Its clearly referring to PD's work over the last year. You are aware that with the loss of 2 nuclear reactors, Tokyo was suffering 3 to 4 hour power blackouts for months after the disaster. I guess a games developer wasn't on the same exclusion list as say hospitals

As for the back of the game case, mine (SCEE) has nothing missing. If America has something different, thats an SCEA problem....Not PD.

Oh and prologue is a beginning of something. A prelude. It almost never says how something will end.

 

[kimi123]

PD have done a remarkable job with GT games. I think gaming media and many people have downplayed them Having said that PD gave them a license to do it with some of the decisions they took, for example standard cars. Another fault of their is that they give a impression that they do care about other games. NFS autolog feature ( Forza copied that, rivals mode which is quite popular and also Codemasters rewind function which is cheapest thing to use), car damage model in Codemasters game and so on ...

Although some of them will argue the changes like cam angle was better before. They are doing great job with the updates. It is something like mods on PC, where game improves with time

 

[Terronium-12]

Oh and prologue is a beginning of something. A prelude. It almost never says how something will end.

Never mind the rest of your post, my issue is with this:

Explain then how a good deal of those features, already featured in previous (with the exception of GT3) GT titles somehow lost their way going from the introductory version of GT5, to the final version of GT5.

Do you see how this defense amounts to nothing at all?

 

[Vaxxtx]

Tell you what, reading some of this makes me laugh....

PD are useless, PD should just take a leaf out of other developers books etc.

Like who?. There 2 biggest rivals?

The 1st withholds content at release to charge as DLC. Not to mention a problem arises with their no assist mode having assists. Solution, deny it at first and delete threads to hide problem. Then blame the wheel manufacturer before finally owning up.
The 2nd is a company that thinks a problem shouldn't be fixed by an update but rather release the fixes for a sequel to earn extra cash.

Brilliant...

PD however. How awful they are. Update after update, that combined file sizes rivals other games total size and doing this in the aftermath of an earthquake, tsunami and getting extremely close to a nuclear fallout.

B*stards....

Let me help correct this. Problem found by the community. Problem looked into by the dev. Problem looked into by the wheel maker. Problem finally identified. Dev explains problem. Problem fixed in a patch. The process took weeks. Not a year.

Also ponder this...if GT5 wasnt so 1/2 baked maybe PD would not need a year to "fix" it.

Since when in the OP is it referring to the release state?. Its clearly referring to PD's work over the last year. You are aware that with the loss of 2 nuclear reactors, Tokyo was suffering 3 to 4 hour power blackouts for months after the disaster. I guess a games developer wasn't on the same exclusion list as say hospitals

As for the back of the game case, mine (SCEE) has nothing missing. If America has something different, thats an SCEA problem....Not PD.

Oh and prologue is a beginning of something. A prelude. It almost never says how something will end.

Cant say about other countries, but features on the back case of GT5 are not in the game...still.

Last statement is VERY true. In a bad way for GT5. But wasnt Prologue touted as a glorifed 40 dollar demo of GT5? Maybe I am wrong but thats what I assumed. So considering that, it isnt unrealistic for a person to get GT5 and GT5P side by side and go huh?

 

[kimi123]

^^

The update is actually improving the game. They don't have to, but they are doing it. Many people would have bought the game this year or will buy next year. Spec 2.0 will be released in Japan may be in other Asian countries as well.

 

[xxDingerxx]

Never mind the rest of your post, my issue is with this:

Explain then how a good deal of those features, already featured in previous (with the exception of GT3) GT titles somehow lost their way going from the introductory version of GT5, to the final version of GT5.

Going by that then, shouldn't the whole gaming development community be under the spotlight?. How many times has a developer promised something through the media that hasn't been delivered?.

Hey, Lionhead, about Fable, i'm still waiting for that acorn to become a tree...

Its games development. Things get added, others get dropped. What speaks volumes about PD is here we are, over a year later receiving large updates (when the majority of developer would have bailed soon after launch)

Hell, they must be doing something right, otherwise the people that are still constantly b*tching would have given up long ago.

 

[Terronium-12]

Going by that then, shouldn't the whole gaming development community be under the spotlight?. How many times has a developer promised something through the media that hasn't been delivered?

How many times has a developer released a stand-alone pay-to-play demonstration of a game with the sole intention of showing what the full version of said game is going to be like? Only to abandon almost everything featured in it (and previous titles bearing the same name), and then re-introduce one or two of those features when, for the sake of this argument, they are no longer capable of changing anything?

Hey, Lionhead, about Fable, i'm still waiting for that acorn to become a tree...

Which is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Its games development. Things get added, others get dropped. What speaks volumes about PD is here we are, over a year later receiving large updates (when the majority of developer would have bailed soon after launch)

Oh, you mean the countless updates that have either restored features that should never have been absent in the first place, or making them significantly worse with nary a mention of it? Yes, it speaks volumes.

For the most part the only things the updates are doing is slowly building up GT5 to the point where it should have been at release.

Hell, they must be doing something right, otherwise the people that are still constantly b*tching would have given up long ago.

Or, you know, it could be due to the fact that people have to actively hunt down the changes in every update as they're not entirely revealed for whatever mundane reason, or the fact that people who are, as you put it, "constantly bitching" simply want a better game than what Prologue is.

No way in conceivable logic is it worthwhile to acknowledge that Prologue, essentially half of the game that GT5 is, is a better game despite having a significant lesser amount of content.

 

[PAWEL17]

You mean exactly like PD just did with the Scirocco?

Also, it pay dividends on your end if you bothered to know how their DLC is planned out.

So, PD has had the Scirocco for over a year now(or has witheld it for however long), so they can get money of us? Then why wasn't the 86 GT included in the pack? But rather given free. Why did it take PD almost a year to release DLC? Where Turn 10, had several Planned with numerous cars to release for sale? That sounds like some greedy buisness to get money, compared to PD.

And if you say that the TC cars were planned, than its hard to believe, because they are just RM models, don't tell me they have had those waiting for a year.

 

[Tornado]

That sounds like some greedy buisness to get money, compared to PD.

PD charges money for exhaustible car paints (and before the sheer amount of outrage forced them to fix it, cars as well).

 

[Terronium-12]

So, PD has had the Scirocco for over a year now(or has witheld it for however long), so they can get money of us? Then why wasn't the 86 GT included in the pack? But rather given free. Why did it take PD almost a year to release DLC? Where Turn 10, had several Planned with numerous cars to release for sale? That sounds like some greedy buisness to get money, compared to PD.

And if you say that the TC cars were planned, than its hard to believe, because they are just RM models, don't tell me they have had those waiting for a year.

A comment made by Kazunori himself proves half of what you're defending flat out wrong.

We have a pool of materials that are possible to release and it was just something that I decided with the team. We decided the vehicles and tracks and content in this first DLC was going to be our starting point.

Any more questions?

 

[PAWEL17]

Nevermind, i didn't read the reply post to dinger.

I see now what is going on. I'm sorry.

 

[xxDingerxx]

How many times has a developer released a stand-alone pay-to-play demonstration of a game with the sole intention of showing what the full version of said game is going to be like?

Keyword is demo. You know thats an experiment of sorts and not an acurate representation of the final product. Wether its better or worse is purely opinion.

Oh, you mean the countless updates that have either restored features that should never have been absent in the first place, or making them significantly worse with nary a mention of it?.
For the most part the only things the updates are doing is slowly building up GT5 to the point where it should have been at release.

Yeah, they should have just left it at vanilla GT5 with no updates at all. GT5 wasn't all that when released but they are getting there. Thats the whole point, here you are still bitching about the original release a year later. Guess what, its getting very boring....

 

[Terronium-12]

I see now that trying to engage in even a remotely intellectual discussion with you was fruitless from the start, as you're now resorting to baseless rhetoric's and essentially putting words in my mouth.

I'm done here.

 

[PAWEL17]

I think the problem, at least for a few people, is that they boil the issue down to a black and white one, where people who aren't enamoured with the latest update or DLC are "ungrateful". Someone can be disappointed (see the, er, disappointment thread), without being ungrateful.

.

I would have to agree, i am absolutely ecstatic they have improved the game so much, sure it wasn't that great from the beginning, but they have continued to improve it. But that doesn't mean i can't not be dissapointed at some things they have introduced in updates, or why they chose certain cars over others, or why haven't they added this instead, or why haven't they added this.
And i think you can never truly satisfy someone a 100%, there is always something that can be improved or added, expecially in video games.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I would have to agree, i am absolutely ecstatic they have improved the game so much, sure it wasn't that great from the beginning, but they have continued to improve it. But that doesn't mean i can't not be dissapointed at some things they have introduced in updates, or why they chose certain cars over others, or why haven't they added this instead, or why haven't they added this.
And i think you can never truly satisfy someone a 100%, there is always something that can be improved or added, expecially in video games.

Thanks PAWEL17 👍

I'll mostly agree with that last statement, but it's infinitely more true of racing games for the simple reason their scope is essentially limitless. Games like Final Fantasy VII, or Castlevania: SOTN, or Metal Gear Solid 4, have a defined universe, and a story to tell. There may be criticisms of certain features, but there is a very defined beginning, middle, and end.

Gran Turismo (and Forza, and Need For Speed, and *insert racing series here*) doesn't have that. There's always the desire for more tracks, or more cars, or more tuning options. The closest to a contained universe is something like the F1 games, or GPL; made to represent only a very defined portion of the automotive world, and nothing else. Because GT has such a wide scope for additions, many people can and will voice their disappointment when their personal laundry list isn't satisfied. That's hardly unnatural, and being disappointed that X car made the cut instead of Y car is a long cry from "ungrateful".