Will General Motors declare bankruptcy?

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IMO GM needs several homeruns in the car segment to reverse that possibility. the solstice could have been one, until they decided not to think it through and severely limit trunk space. most people who can only afford one car will not be buying the soltice.

The Buicks are, they are selling decently. The Caddies are, they are selling decently. The Soltice/Sky will sell well despite the truck space, you don't buy it for truck space.

if development of zeta hadnt been interuppted we might have been hearing substantiated rumours of a RWD car to carry on in the camaros footsteps. shortsighted move to halt development, then a few months later start developing it again.

The Camaro Concept will debute at the NAIAS in January. GM has already announced this, well theysaid Camaro or Chevelle, either way it will work.

the writings been on the wall about car based SUVs gaining in popularity vs truck based ones, but GM chose to push forward thier GMT 900 platform for short term gain. and styled them blandly to boot.

The GMT 900 line up is some of the best trucks I've seen come out of a company in a while. I almost can promise you they will sell great.
 
BlazinXtreme
The Buicks are, they are selling decently. The Caddies are, they are selling decently. The Soltice/Sky will sell well despite the truck space, you don't buy it for truck space.

i guess you didnt read the part where i said people who are shopping for an only car will likely rule it out. i didnt say it wont sell well, i merely said they've basically eliminated one segment of people who are looking at it.

the buicks are selling well? to who? the same dwindling demographic of retirees and rental fleets?

the cadillacs are selling well. GMs one shining star. however i didnt say bright shining star.


The Camaro Concept will debute at the NAIAS in January. GM has already announced this, well theysaid Camaro or Chevelle, either way it will work.

based on their execution with the solstice im not raising my hopes. IMO this is GMs opportunity to make a killer app. as far as im concerned they need this more than the trucks, because it will sell in higher numbers than the solstice as a more mainstream car. and right now sales would indicate that the truck market is a little soft. they really really really need to redesign that trunk/ gas tank and make the coupe version they showed at NAIAS a few years ago.
ford is virtually minting money with the mustang although they have thier own GM like problems.
chrysler is doing the same with the charger, magnum and 300, and a challenger already has been spotted

The GMT 900 line up is some of the best trucks I've seen come out of a company in a while. I almost can promise you they will sell great.

im sure they will. but the timing is all wrong. people are far more concerned with fuel economy now than they were. katrina, rita, other factors have made people think twice. those who need trucks will buy them regardless. the casual shopper is thinking twice.


one think i think GM doest realise is that they have an image problem. the cars are ok, but the styling is bland (everything but cadillac, solstice and vette) or the execution is lacking or something else. this is why i think they need the home run. and i think they need more than one. someone walking in to look at the camaro and needing a 4 dr sedan would have what, to buy from GM that is fresh and exciting? something not heavily populating the rental fleet.
at least ford has the fusion/ futura/ milan triumvirate.
chrysler has the magnum/ charger/ 300. and minivans too.

a car company that can make the corvette can do this. but, we will see.
 
did i say family car anywhere?

im single, i have no kids. i may need a car, but dont have a family. am i not allowed to buy a car?
i dont need a family car. if im looking for a sporty small sports car and i want rear wheel drive i have to buy a miata or soltice. the miata has a trunk. the solstice basically does not.

i have to take my kit bag with me when i play rugby. its about 3'X1.5'X1.5'. i cant take it in the soltice even with the roof up, i can in a miata.

case closed.


for fuxxsakes people read what im saying. dont infer.

there are people who only own one car.
there are people who only own a miata.
the miata is not a family car.
neither is the solstice.
for those people seeking an only car, but needing some trunk space, the solstice is not a viable option.
 
BlazinXtreme
You have still failed to prove to me this. Plus according to the Audi website, the W12 is a 6.0L.



Actually you haven't, I'm yet to see hard data from you.



Show me an Audi that can pull this...

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Show me an Audi that can do this...

gall_8.jpg


Blazing go get your cars emissions off a site somewhere. I know for a fact that you fully well know where to find it but sadly because I deal mostly with european sources I cant find anything on your car. Hell I dont even know then full name of it.

Show me an Audi that can do this...

quattro_11298.jpg


quattro.jpg


853audiquattro43hg.jpg


2005-VW-Touareg-Expeditions-Uphill-1024x768.jpg


touareg-freunde.de_0173.jpg


Touareg-trailer-115.jpg


401-0197_.jpg


They work in the snow too.

As far as I can tell Duke's been backing up SUV's and trucks ect for what they're built for, not for what they're used for. As the end of the day if I see a guy driving an SUV I don't care if he's using it to pose or not, at the end of the day I can go through my village and see on average 5 posers in Audi TT's, I can see maybe 2 Ferrari's again with posers in the seats and a handful of Porsches, again driven by posers. Why is a guy who's posing in a truck suddenly worse than you're average Audi TT or Porsche Boxster owner? The answer is they arn't, if someone wan't to buy a truck to pose in, let them they arn't doing me any harm, if they drive like assholes with me around then they are, but anyone can be like that, boy racers are the worst for that, not truck drivers. Whichever way you look at it, SUV and truck drivers are no worse than any other drivers and SUV's and trucks arn't to blame if a poser buy's one.

:rolleyes:

Did you even read the thread? Its not about posing at all and Im a future poser as it is. Its about SUV's being enviromentally worse in the sense that 95% of the owners dont use them to do what they were designed for and a car would do the job perfectly in their place.

Ever heard of Janet Guthrie? Shirley Muldowney? Danica Patrick? Sarah Fisher? Katherine Legge? What about GTP's own ViXeN? She'll kick your ass in a real car, on a real race track.

Not champs though are they? the only female champ ive ever heard of was a woman who won the Dakar in her class.
And there are 5 year olds out there that will kick all our butts.


Where do you get this crap? Honestly. Prove it.

Call your wife and throw a egg at her. Do it unexpectantly and not like a pansy. She wont catch it. Now call your son if you have one and do the same.

Ummm, OK. Show me this "law". And if you've read any of my posts on the Op board, you know I also dislike Affirmatifve Action in all forms.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...ial_s&q=fathers+for+justice&btnG=Search&meta=

Audi doesn't list any towing capacity for the A8 on their website. It starts at almost US$ 70,000 and goes up rapidly from there. Tell me again how practical this car would be to tow my boat or caravan.

Well shall I repeat. The audi A6 straight off from the audi UK site states that it can tow something weighing up to 2.1 tons.

How was this not quoted, kind of pointless replying to it now since he's been banned but telling somone who's right that they're wrong and calling them dumb for it certainly raises question marks on his age and intelligence, not that there wasn't any before that post.

Im raising question marks right now about your intelligence. I didnt call anyone dumb.Read it again :dunce:

Well if it's fuel efficiency your arguing over go complain to sportscar and supercar buyers, the fact you can transport only 1 passenger (generally) and get similar or less fuel efficiency is what you're argument should be. But don't start *****ing about fuel prices because you've got it made.

What the hell is that.

Thats post was poor. Very very poor.

First off sports cars are limited in production compared to SUV's. Secoondly there are tonnes of sports cars out there that are more efficient and enviromentally friendly than SUV's. And tirdly the sports cars serve their purpose better than SUV's.The driver will still occasionally push the cars and sports cars are just trophies that you show off anyway. Otherwise sports cars would be ugly as there would be no designing for beauty or elegance but just pure aerodynamics.

And SUV'S are wasting fuel. Thats my gripe with them everyday millions of people waste fuel. They could be driving cars that does everything that they require using up half the fuel that the SUV's do but they dont.

And for those that do go camping maybe once or twice a year this is what us people in europe do. We go and rent something suitable for the time peroid. In the long run its a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a SUV.

And so I was banned. Well its a pity that im pretty much unbannable and I can get around any I.P blockings etc. I wasnt gonna come back but I just couldnt resist this thread. I managed for a couple of days but it was nagging. And duke well done on twisting everything for your argument. Moderators or Goons indeed.
Anyhow Im now not gonna come back here again for a very very very long time and when I do you guys wont know about it.

TA-TA.
 
Blazing go get your cars emissions off a site somewhere. I know for a fact that you fully well know where to find it but sadly because I deal mostly with european sources I cant find anything on your car. Hell I dont even know then full name of it.

I can't find it, nor do I really care to. It passes emission standards and thats all I need to know.

Show me an Audi that can do this... *pics*

You showed me a bunch of VW Touregs and rally cars. The Toureg is an SUV type of thing, the rally cars aren't off roading per say. I don't know about the ski ramp one, so I can't really comment on it.

But I'm not even going to continue with you, you are an idiot.
 
Token_Warrior
Blazing go get your cars emissions off a site somewhere. I know for a fact that you fully well know where to find it but sadly because I deal mostly with european sources I cant find anything on your car. Hell I dont even know then full name of it.

They work in the snow too.
Half of those are rally cars, which are not only about as street legal as a Sauber C9, but are also made specifically to go off-road and such. The other is, besides not even being an Audi, also an SUV, which contradicts your next reply.

Token_Warrior
Did you even read the thread? Its not about posing at all and Im a future poser as it is. Its about SUV's being enviromentally worse in the sense that 95% of the owners dont use them to do what they were designed for and a car would do the job perfectly in their place.
And I'm sure EVERY SINGLE person that bought an older Bentley Continental or Lamborghini Diablo, which both averaged less than 10MPG, probably also could have gotten around perfectly fine with a Toyota Prius.

Token_Warrior
Well shall I repeat. The audi A6 straight off from the audi UK site states that it can tow something weighing up to 2.1 tons.
Hook that boat up to it and tell me the rear suspension won't collapse.



Token_Warrior
First off sports cars are limited in production compared to SUV's. Secoondly there are tonnes of sports cars out there that are more efficient and enviromentally friendly than SUV's. And tirdly the sports cars serve their purpose better than SUV's.The driver will still occasionally push the cars and sports cars are just trophies that you show off anyway. Otherwise sports cars would be ugly as there would be no designing for beauty or elegance but just pure aerodynamics.
And SUV'S are wasting fuel. Thats my gripe with them everyday millions of people waste fuel. They could be driving cars that does everything that they require using up half the fuel that the SUV's do but they dont.
And every single person in the world could drive a Toyota Prius or diesel Golf, as well. But they don't. Believe it or not, many SUV driver usually do require the things an SUV give them over minivans.

Token_Warrior
And for those that do go camping maybe once or twice a year this is what us people in europe do. We go and rent something suitable for the time peroid. In the long run its a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a SUV.
Show me the math that gives me that conclusion.
And for good measure:
Token_Warrior
Yeah nice one but thats not a SUV and it wouldnt destroy an X5 at all. If you were to lower the X5 it would probably win. But two can play that game. For £10,000 I can get a caterham which will destroy any american car ever built when it comes to handling.
So, despite the 540i Sport Wagon accelerating faster, handling better, costing less than and having more cubic space inside than a X5, an X5 would still win? Despite the fact that is an SUV? Funny. Also, 1988 Pontiac Fiero. Supercharge it and take a little weight out. It would win against a Caterham and quite a bit less.
 
:rolleyes: Here we go again...

Seriously, GM isn't going bankrupt. The Solstice and Sky will bring in more buyers, as will the new passenger cars and Trucks.

Durant's little soldier ain't going away anytime soon.
 
Toronado
................ Also, 1988 Pontiac Fiero. Supercharge it and take a little weight out. It would win against a Caterham and quite a bit less.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

i was with you until there.


now if you threw a bunch of money at it on the other hand....
 
LeadSlead#2
sounds like you could fit it in the passenger seat
yes, that was a bit argumentive - but true, nonetheless

very argumentative, splitting hairs in fact, but i'll take the bait.

i also take a folding chair, tarp, and sometimes have to take the uniforms home and wash them. thats a huge and heavy bag, 4X2X2. all that would still fit on the seat? what if i pick up some chic at the party afterwards? she gonna sit on the roof?

its not practical. it'll turn some people off. get over it.

___________


as i said earlier. people are more concious of fuel economy. link

GM's decision reflects the sales nosedive of truck-based SUVs, the automaker's financial plight and the expectation that many SUV owners will shift to crossover vehicles that offer better fuel economy.
 
Zardoz
OT a bit, because it isn't about GM, but for the record, now Ford is closing plants:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10333339/

Ah, so this is an industry trend.

capitalism 101:

Profits increase...more competition...prices drop...profits decrease...companies reduce industry capacity and/or pay their workers poverty wages...decreased supply of products causes increase in prices (or more likely decreased costs)...increased prices/decreased costs = increased profits...

Rinse... repeat...

Joey: Pure capitalism may be the best way to allocate scarce resources, but it's not exactly socially-conscious since profit is supreme. (<<response to comment made in America thread)

I'm not surprised Ford is closing plants.

Ford Fun Facts (say that 3x fast):

Profitability:
Gross profit margin: 17.93%
Operating profit margin: 2.84%
Net profit margin: irrelevant...yeah, it's that bad

Overall grade: D

Liquidity:
Current ratio: 0.57 -- not good; should be equal to or greater than 1
Quick ratio: 0.45 -- not good; could run out of working capital if it does not have positive cash flow

Overall grade: F

Operating:
Inventory turnover ratio: 2.87 -- poor use of inventory
Return on Assets: irrelevant

Overall grade: F

Solvency:
Debt-to-worth: 1,818.17%... :dunce:
Working capital: negative $40.6 billion

Overall grade: F

Looks like my current semesters grades! :dopey:
 
MrktMkr1986
Looks like my current semesters grades! :dopey:

:lol: You too?? :dunce:

neanderthal
i was with you until there.

now if you threw a bunch of money at it on the other hand....

I'm hoping you're actually kidding about that because you'd have to throw a bunch of money in the form of two more cars, 1 for if it catches on fire :dopey: and the other for if it falls appart :sick:
 
i dont agree that a caterham would be beaten by a fiero. unless you threw a bunch of money at it. what are YOU saying, that you cant make a decent fiero without two cars?

mrktmkr

its not an industry wide trend. its a domestics trend. honda toyota and nissan are expanding (see recent news on autoweek.com) thier truck offereings to possibly include diesel. they arent shutting down any plants.
 
LeadSlead#2
why are we talking about wether or not a modded fiero can beat a catherham?
I'll bet a properly modded civic could beat a catherham too
Because, as a joke to piss Young_Warrior off, I posted this:
Me
Also, 1988 Pontiac Fiero. Supercharge it and take a little weight out. It would win against a Caterham and quite a bit less.
 
Sorry to be chiming in so late here--had a bunch of projects due at the end of the semester. The closings are because both Ford and GM have had excess capacity for YEARS and haven't done a stinking thing about it. I hate to point the finger at the unions again, but...I hate them, and they deserve the blame. They are an outdated entity, and the sooner the unions die, the better. But I'll let Peter expound on that one for me (see the Autoextremist article below).

GM should start pulling out of their tailspin in the next few years. Lutz used to be at BMW, and he knows what he's supposed to be doing. He's said the Solstice is the car he tried to make both at BMW and at Chrysler (I think he was at Chrysler in between BMW and GM, and I think he was behind the Copperhead). And it will be a hit. The next Grand Prix will be RWD, and therefore the Monte Carlo will too. The next GTO is supposed to be awesome, too, but who really knows? Which brings me to my soapbox.


The executive management teams at both Ford and GM have been driving with their prescriptions WAY out of date. Have they ever heard of internationalization? Both companies have awesome cars in Australia that would steal sales not just from the 300C, charger, and magnum, but the RWD sport lux segment--since there is NO RWD sport segment aside from the charger. Cars that would give a normal guy a decently compelling reason to buy a Ford or Chevy. In fact, Ford eyes are worse, since their Falcon can't even be converted to LHD (at lest the commedore and monaro CAN be refitted a la GTO). Holden made a concept called the Torana that would seriously compete with the BMW 3 series, but who's ever heard of it that isn't Australian? (I chanced upon it after following something James had me look at on some Aussie car website). http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/2004-australian-motor-show-holden.htm Same goes for several of their European cars--the speedster and some others come to mind. Why don't they actually produce these things? Why don't they manage the whole company on a global scale?

Same reason DXC hasn't achieved economies between MB and Chrysler. It's hard to change what you've been doing, and the global economy is still a relatively new concept to them all--especially with the long development times they all have. Since everyone comes here (to the US) to sell cars, everyone else comes here pretty in-touch with their international side. Not so with the big three.

Anyway, I'm done for tonight. Enjoy this article from autoextremist a few weeks back--it ought to shed a little light on the union subject. Enjoy it--you can't get it anymore without paying for it.

autoextremist.com
The Canary in the Mineshaft.

Detroit. The news of Delphi's bankruptcy filing may be just another piece of business news to those who don't live around these parts, or for those who don't have a vested interest in the U.S. auto industry, but the sad fact of the matter is that this development is just the tip of the iceberg in a fundamental shift that not only threatens to decimate the U.S. auto industry, it's one that will ultimately affect this nation's economy - no matter where you live or what you do.

The Delphi bankruptcy is the latest major crack in the pressure cooker that the U.S. auto industry has become over the last two decades - only this one is definitely the tipping point into a dimension that industry insiders have been dreading. Lower cost competition from around the world has changed the auto manufacturing landscape completely - and Detroit has been operating under a model that has been obsolete for years. Strapped with a crushing wage and benefits structure negotiated in an environment fueled by an optimism that in retrospect had absolutely no right to exist, the American car companies and the United Auto Workers union are now facing a future that revolves around a harsh reality that comes down to this one simple but all-encompassing statement: change or die.

The bottom line in Delphi's situation is that its cost structure is more than double that of the other suppliers it competes against. And this simply cannot continue. When Robert S. (Steve) Miller, Delphi's chairman and chief executive officer (and a turnaround specialist of note who was brought in this summer to try to make sense of this mess), informed the UAW that he was seeking wage and benefits cuts from its membership of up to as much as 63 percent, union management scoffed at the outrageousness of the idea. And even though Miller knew that he would get that reaction, he also knew that he had to make all parties involved understand the severity of the issues he was dealing with right up front. And what he's dealing with is the fundamentally flawed foundation on which Detroit's model has been based on for too long - thus, the tip of the iceberg.

Delphi (a huge supplier to GM with 300 plants in 38 countries and upwards of 185,000 employees) is caught in the crosshairs of Detroit's dilemma - which comes down to an unworkably high cost structure fueled by a "perfect storm" of sky-high wages, remarkably generous health care costs and crushing pension obligations. In its present configuration, Delphi is simply unable to compete in a world crawling with low-cost parts suppliers who are free of those same financial burdens.

The logical scenario that will unfold with this bankruptcy is that Delphi and the UAW will not come to an agreement to reduce the pay package, and then the bankruptcy judge will dissolve the agreement with the union. And once that happens, Delphi will be free to rebuild the company either with the union's participation - or without it.

But the other issue in the equation is that it's becoming more apparent by the hour that there's no separating Delphi's problems from GM's. We could be on the verge of a seismic development in which GM's downward spiral could be accelerated by Delphi's swoon. Kirk Kerkorian looms large in this scenario, and he's poised to move in before things get any uglier for GM. The Delphi situation may, in fact, play right into Kerkorian's hands. With GM's debt rating being lowered again, Delphi may force GM into a doomsday scenario that would have been unthinkable even a few months ago - one that involves acquiescing to Kerkorian's wishes as orchestrated by Jerry York or succumb to a bankruptcy of its own. The situation is that precarious.

Delphi, in effect, is the equivalent of the canary in the mineshaft, signaling an entire industry - and the nation - that the domestic auto industry is at the precipice of unthinkable disaster. Detroit is competing at a dramatic disadvantage in every phase of the game - and its stratospherically out-of-whack cost structure is just one part of it. The other part lies in the predatory trade policies, currency manipulation practices and home market protectionism as practiced by Japan, Inc., Korea and China that Detroit is dealing with on a daily basis.

It would be easy to write off Detroit's predicament as a self-induced set of problems, something that's an issue only for the "fly-over" states to deal with. But the problems Detroit faces - the health care costs, the pension costs and the gross trade disadvantages - are problems America now must face as a nation. Don't believe it? Between one in seven and one in nine jobs in this country are still either directly or indirectly connected to the domestic automobile business. Quite simply, if the domestic auto industry goes down for the count it will affect every corner of this nation and impact the national economy far beyond the devastation caused by the two recent hurricanes. It would be a catastrophe of almost incalculable proportions.

Thinking locally, there is no mystery as to what kind of effect the implosion of Detroit will have on this region. Remember, we're talking about a way of life that was propelled from the very beginnings of this industry by Henry Ford paying workers the unheard of sum of $5.00 per day to build his cars. From there, countless generations of American families lived out their lives fueled by an industry that for the most part provided a comfortable living, excellent health care benefits and a future retirement scenario that they could count on.

All of that is on the verge of going by the wayside - permanently.

In 2007, the UAW and the domestic automakers will enter into contract negotiations. If anyone thinks that the scenario discussed will be dramatically different than the scenario proffered by Steve Miller for Delphi - they will be sadly mistaken. Detroit is simply running out of time and running out of options. Detroit can't afford to continue building and selling cars at a loss, so the entire foundation of the industry - the gold-plated wages, health care and pension costs - will have to be blown up and the entire business model will have to be fundamentally altered.

It will mark the end of an era and really the destruction of a culture that has grown up in this region over 100 years. And the very existence of the UAW itself will not only be severely tested, it could very well become part of the past too.

The implosion of Detroit will also be a dramatic wakeup call for the nation itself. This country cannot continue on the path it's going without dealing with the fundamental issues of health care and pensions. And our government simply cannot continue to allow its trading partners to competitively exploit our industries - to the long-term detriment and deterioration of our own manufacturing base.

The Delphi bankruptcy marks the beginning of the end for an industry and a way of life, as we know it. It also affords this industry and the country a golden opportunity to reinvent and reposition itself for a brighter, more competitive future.

Suffice to say, these next few months will be the most pivotal in the history of the domestic automobile industry.

Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.

Automotive consultant Peter M. DeLorenzo founded Autoextremist.com - an Internet magazine devoted to news, commentary and analysis of the automotive industry, automotive marketing, strategy and product development - on June 1, 1999. Since then, Autoextremist.com has become a weekly "must-read" for leading professionals within and outside the industry, including top executives at the car companies, suppliers, dealers, journalists, financial analysts, enthusiasts, and people directly involved in motorsports. Prior to launching the site, Peter spent more than two decades in automotive advertising and marketing, holding top-level positions as Creative Director and Executive CD at ad agencies in Detroit and New York. In addition to his editorial opinion work on Autoextremist.com, Mr. DeLorenzo regularly consults for enlightened automobile companies and is a national commentator on the auto industry. The opinions expressed by Mr. DeLorenzo are his and his alone and do not necessarily reflect those of his clients.
 
while the views stated in de lorenzos article are all spot on there is one glaring mistake; american manufacturers have made cars far too suited for american conditions for too long, and therefore cant compete in other markets.

its not just the currency manipulation and home market protectionism practised by japan et al. the domestic cars sucked in those other markets. people didnt buy em.
 
That's not really true--they're barely suited to American tastes, let alone the rest of the worlds'. They've sucked in THIS market--the only reason people buy them is nationalism. Which is a pretty crappy reason to have to buy something, no matter how patriotic you are.
 
its exactly becasue they are suited to american tastes that they sell here and nowhere else. its just that the japanese are out "american-ing" the domestics in their own market.

how else did GM manage to move scads of chevy cavaliers here but fail to sell ten thousand in japan over a period of years?
 
neanderthal
its exactly becasue they are suited to american tastes that they sell here and nowhere else. its just that the japanese are out "american-ing" the domestics in their own market.

how else did GM manage to move scads of chevy cavaliers here but fail to sell ten thousand in japan over a period of years?
Or better yet, sell at least 14 Saturns in this country, but when they to take GM's "Japan Fighter" brand to Japan itself it sells so badly that it wasn't commercially viable to do it a second year. They should have killed Saturn 4 years ago. There was no need for it at the time, nor was there one when GM introduced it 15-odd years ago. Just wasted money going into ugly cars that aren't very good (they are now the best cars GM sells besides Buicks and Cadillacs, but that's not saying very much). I think this whole thing started when GM killed off Oldsmobile. Think about it: At the time, the Olds Aurora and Alero were the best domestic cars on the market (except maybe the Chrysler LH/300M), without any brand engineering, yet GM did no follow up for Buick, which at the time was still using the garbage Regal and Park Avenue.
 
No one bought Oldsmobiles for whatever reason, I think it was their image. At least with Buick they are some of the best cars on the road today.
 
BlazinXtreme
No one bought Oldsmobiles for whatever reason, I think it was their image. At least with Buick they are some of the best cars on the road today.
Now. Until last year or so, most of them were about as old as Ford Crown Victorias. Spongy, cheap intorior filled barges with suspensions that would make a car from the 70's laugh. The previous gen Toyota Avalon embarassed both the Regal and Park Avenue. They were safe, but if that was all that mattered in cars, everyone would be driving Volvo's and Ford Crown Vic's. They were based on very late 80's technology. All in all, they weren't very good cars. Yes, they weren't selling very many Oldmobiles, but they weren't losing any money over them. They were cheap as hell to build, and they were built alongside the aforementioned Buicks, so they didn't have any extra plants to worry about. And, unlike Saab, GM wasn't losing money on every car that they sold. Even if the production numbers were low, they were still profitable. The same can't be said for Saab or Saturn. Another reason Olds weren't selling well was because GM let the public know they were dumping Olds, which scared people as to whether warranties could be honored (a reasonable fear, if MG Rover has taught us anything besides how not to make cars).
 
I think someone who says saturns are the best GM vehicles made today, besides buicks and cadillacs, probabley doesnt have a well grounded opinion... or, has eccentric taste
this is not directed towards buick or cadillac, but saturn
saturn? seriously....


P.S. America does not charge other countries companys an import tax... other countries ALL charge america an import tax... think about how much less people would buy imported cars if they cost that much more... just as american cars cost far more in japan than here... at least, comparitivly
 
I actually think Saturn is close to the best brand inside GM, I wouldn't hesitate buying a Saturn.
 
last I heard, saturn was the cheap GM company... behind everything else... unless they changed it since then... i wouldnt know if they did, cause I hate all things saturn besides the ion red line, but even the reg ions look bad to me... and every old one I see has the loudest valve tapping I've ever heard... but thats probly due to owners never ever changing their oil
 
BlazinXtreme
No one bought Oldsmobiles for whatever reason, I think it was their image. At least with Buick they are some of the best cars on the road today.

I thought they killed off Olds.. why are they still around?? :odd:
 
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