Will General Motors declare bankruptcy?

[Poverty]

Its not better than the audis rs4 V8 is it then. Man you are so far up your own...

 

[Joey D]

Is the S4 motor better then the Chevy 350? I wouldn't think so, how many cars use the 4.2L V-8? How many use the 5.7L V-8?

The Chevy 350 is by far the most popular engine ever built which means that it must be good, therefore up there on the good engine lists.

But since you don't like GM, the 5.7L (350) Hemi is just as good or better then the 4.2L Audi V-8.

 

[Poverty]

Is the S4 motor better then the Chevy 350? I wouldn't think so, how many cars use the 4.2L V-8? How many use the 5.7L V-8?

The Chevy 350 is by far the most popular engine ever built which means that it must be good, therefore up there on the good engine lists.

But since you don't like GM, the 5.7L (350) Hemi is just as good or better then the 4.2L Audi V-8.

It doesnt work like that. The engine could only ever end up in one car and still be the best engine in the world.

And whats the S4 motor got to do with the RS4's engine. They are different engines.The only reason why the 350 isused in so many different cars is because its lexible in the fact that its big with easy power. That doesnt make a good engine. Thtas why GM isnt in formula one. OMG we cant have a 7 litre displacement!!!!!!!! How else are we going to make 900hp out of a 2.4?

 

[Joey D]

It doesnt work like that. The engine could only ever end up in one car and still be the best engine in the world.

And whats the S4 motor got to do with the RS4's engine. They are different engines.The only reason why the 350 isused in so many different cars is because its lexible in the fact that its big with easy power. That doesnt make a good engine. Thtas why GM isnt in formula one. OMG we cant have a 7 litre displacement!!!!!!!! How else are we going to make 900hp out of a 2.4?

RS4, S4 whatever sorry I forgot the R.

But tell me what American car company is in F1? None I can think of but Chevy is in Indy Car and Champ Car. Plus what about the 700hp 2.2L Ecotec drag car? Little engine big power.

Stop being thick headed.

 

[Poverty]

I will stop being thick headed when you do.

 

[High-Test]

Something in me tells me that far, far in the future, when oil has probably run out and cars are powered by ethanol and other things, there will still be a variant of the 1955 265 cubic inch smallblock, even if it's clad in as many possible gizmos as it can be. Why? The motor is now 51 years old. (52, If one counts the 1954 chevy testbed car) Sure, the basic things like water jackets, exhaust ports, intake runners and the such have changed, but the block is still very close to the original SBC. Also, the motor is reliable and easy to maintain. Hotrodders usually want a simple, reliable powerplant that can just happen to be able to destroy a set of rear tires if it needs to. It's also one of the best, if not THE best engine ever made, because in 51 years, people think they have figured out almost everything, yet it is still being improved upon. The little orange 2 barreled motor of 1955 is a weakling compared to it's distant relative powering many of GM's V8 products. Vast improvements in power and Economy have been made over the years, and I think that the best days of the Chevrolet Smallblock are yet to come. Plus, it's cheap. If one were to get a replacement RS4 motor, or an RS4 crate engine, how much would it cost? A 350 H.O crate engine costs 2400 dollars, and puts out 330 horses and 380 ft-lbs of torque. How much does a similar Audi motor cost?

 

[Ghost C]

HAHA this is nearly as good as your SUV comment. The CTS-V is not the king of sedans as in a comparo to the M3 it lost even though the M3 had like 60hp less. Compare the CTS-V to the AUDI RS4 and it gets completly and utterly annhailated. The CTS-V is not a handler bas otherwise it would have beat the M3.Oh and that god awful interior.

Correction, magazines don't "like" the CTS-V as much. They all agree that given a pair of proper drivers, the M3 will have it's ass handed to it quite readily by the V, but they don't "like" the V as well.

Get any european mag that has reviewed the xlr-v and they all say this. "A crap version of the mercedes SL55 amg."

Yes, let's get a European magazine to review an American car that they don't get in the first place. Great idea. Here's another good one for you, I'll call up Motor Trend, and get them to review TVR's. We won't even have to test them, we'll just go on what we've heard about them, and a general bias towards European cars. Sound good?

The S6 Isnt even sold anymore so you must be comparing it to the old one. The new one will take the STS-V for a walk.The E55 AMG and equivelant CLS is also better but the M5 is in an entire different class.

So we're going to judge a car that you can barely call released, with no actual published acceleration figures (C&D's estimates don't count), just because we don't like it? Nice.

It can keep up with a ferrari F430.

If by "keep up" you mean "get beat on quite readily by over a half second from 0-60" then yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[McLaren]

The S6 Isnt even sold anymore so you must be comparing it to the old one. The new one will take the STS-V for a walk.The E55 AMG and equivelant CLS is also better but the M5 is in an entire different class. It can keep up with a ferrari F430.

Really no difference. The M5 and M6 can keep up with a Ferrari, but the M6 would be a better comparison due to being the same class.

The only thing GM is the best at currently is the sports car catagory with the Vette.

Hardly. The only thing the Vette has become famous for is its price really.

Europe produces far better sports cars in terms of Performance. The Price does not always matter to people.

Still the GT3 is more expensive, a lot more expensive. The Z06 is the best buy for performance vs. price. There is no questioning that. But who cares, the Z06 > GT3, plain and simple. Who cares what motor it uses, take whatever road is the best.

It was built off from a race car. That's why the thing is so expensive. Power does not define everything, as it's nothing without handling, something Porsche is a master at.
And as Poverty stated, Porsche can get away with it. BMW, Mercedes can all charge alot of money for a car because of the company they are. Everyone knows why the Vette is so low. If they charged the same price for it as a Ferrari, GM knows no money will come from it. If Ferrari prices the F430 at the GM line, they'll make money, but everyone will have one.

I guarantee you, if Ferrari puts out a 500Hp car ay $70K, hell even $90K, everyone will scramble for it over the Vette.

BTW, the car that beat the Vette time was an RS (No difference really) in which you might wanna research why its pricing is so much higher....

 

[Joey D]

Hardly. The only thing the Vette has become famous for is its price really.

Europe produces far better sports cars in terms of Performance. The Price does not always matter to people.

The Vette is much better then a lot of European sports cars...well I should say the Z06 because the Vette itself is just decently fast. But just look at the 'Ring times, which most people seem to go by around here. The Z06 ran a 7:42 which is pretty damn fast. The Z06 beat many Porsche's, Ferraris, etc. European sports cars aren't gods, they are just status symbols.

It was built off from a race car. That's why the thing is so expensive. Power does not define everything, as it's nothing without handling, something Porsche is a master at.
And as Poverty stated, Porsche can get away with it. BMW, Mercedes can all charge alot of money for a car because of the company they are. Everyone knows why the Vette is so low. If they charged the same price for it as a Ferrari, GM knows no money will come from it. If Ferrari prices the F430 at the GM line, they'll make money, but everyone will have one.

Wait, the Z06 was built off a race car as well, so you can't use that excuse. Well not really built off of, but its basically a road version of a race car and it's only 70 grand. But it's stupid to price cars so high, they are still a company and they are still out to make money.

I guarantee you, if Ferrari puts out a 500Hp car ay $70K, hell even $90K, everyone will scramble for it over the Vette.

It would come down to where you live and what kinda car you want, the Z06 is very similar to the 430 in performance. I know I wouldn't buy a Ferrari, but if Ferrari priced a car that low it would come down to your own preferance.

 

[McLaren]

The Vette is much better then a lot of European sports cars...well I should say the Z06 because the Vette itself is just decently fast. But just look at the 'Ring times, which most people seem to go by around here. The Z06 ran a 7:42 which is pretty damn fast. The Z06 beat many Porsche's, Ferraris, etc. European sports cars aren't gods, they are just status symbols.



Wait, the Z06 was built off a race car as well, so you can't use that excuse. Well not really built off of, but its basically a road version of a race car and it's only 70 grand. But it's stupid to price cars so high, they are still a company and they are still out to make money.



It would come down to where you live and what kinda car you want, the Z06 is very similar to the 430 in performance. I know I wouldn't buy a Ferrari, but if Ferrari priced a car that low it would come down to your own preferance.

I'll agree most are, but they still are some of top cars, and are always producing something new to the market, ala the new Turbo, GT3, Imola, etc. etc.

So it's stupid to price $450,000 for a supercar with a V10 and using some highly advanced parts, and assemble it all together by hand? Why do you think Lamborghinis, Paganis, Ferraris, and others are so d*mn high?

They're hand built and carry alot high-tech equipment in them. Those V12s....they are the sole reason Lamborghinis have been so expensive.

Yes, it'll come down to where you live, but it still proves my point. We all know the Vette's a $100K+ car in Europe. So who are people most likely to go after? A $100K Corvette, or save a little more for a TVR?

AS you said, cars are status symbols. And that is the reason why BMWs, Mercedes, Porsches, Lamborghinis, and Ferraris are bought over another car.
Don't act like every customer cares about the performance.
It is pretty much fact, customers buy the cars because of the company's background, and marque.

GM has never been a company to produce the same equality of a car like a Lambo.

A man with $500,000. Average Joe. Out of the Vette and a Ferrari, who do you think he'll choose to spend his money on?

 

[Joey D]

So it's stupid to price $450,000 for a supercar with a V10 and using some highly advanced parts, and assemble it all together by hand? Why do you think Lamborghinis, Paganis, Ferraris, and others are so d*mn high?

Yes, buying those cars are like buying Nike shoes, they look cool, they are name brand, but there are cheaper things that are just as good.

A man with $500,000. Average Joe. Out of the Vette and a Ferrari, who do you think he'll choose to spend his money on?

Average man? A Vette.

 

[McLaren]

The average man can not afford a Ferrari, so there's no point in that.

I'm talking about people who can afford both. Who do you think they will choose?

~What other cars are that much better than a Carrera GT but are $400,000 less? The Vette and the Viper I rarely see as something to come close to a car like the C. GT or Enzo.
Let's not also mention that somebody has to pay the assemblers for their work.

How do you think McLaren went under? Too much money to build, and even at the price new, they could still not regain a profit.

 

[Joey D]

It still comes down to where you live, how you were brought up, what you are looking for. Most middel aged American men would take a Corvette over anything else no matter what kind of money they had because it's what they grew up with or they had one in high school.

 

[McLaren]

It still comes down to where you live, how you were brought up, what you are looking for. Most middel aged American men would take a Corvette over anything else no matter what kind of money they had because it's what they grew up with or they had one in high school.

Exactly....because its a marque of Chevrolet, a status symbol from when they grew up.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Since when was the last time names like Lamborghini and Ferrari were matched with the idea of "Quality"? Drive the cars for more than 60,000 and they damn near fall apart. I seem to recall engine fires with the Muria, $8000 service costs for the 360 even with regular maintainence, and shift linkages and clutches going out on almost every Lamborghini test car given to Car and Driver and Motor Trend over the past couple years...

The Corvette on the other hand has had some electrical problems in the past, but as for everything else, its rock solid. And with almost 5000 dealers across the continental US, you arent going to have a hard time fixing it if anything was to go wrong.

Now the Porsche GT3 is a car that holds a special place in my heart. Compared to the C6 Corvette Z06, its close, but not nearly as fast. The $30K I would save between the two would be spent on a good everyday car like the BMW 325i or Impala SS. Things may change with the new 997-based GT3, but we will have to wait and see. Untill then, the Z06 is number one in my book.

As far as the Europeans testing the XLR-V, it couldnt have happened since the car isnt even out yet... Even in the United States... So for you Poverty to pull that comment out of your ass, thats impressive.

...And do tell Poverty, how exactly is the E55/CLS55 and M5 not in the same class? Car and Driver recently tested the CLS55, M5, and STS-V just outside of my hometown at Grattan International Raceway and although the M5 did place first, the STS-V came in second, with the CLS55 a bit behind.

The Audi RS4 on the other hand is still far from heading to US shores, and untill then, the CTS-V sits atop the midsize performance sedan hill. It beat out the M3 and matched the previous generation M5, and although a comparison test between the C32/S4/CTS-V resulted in an S4 win (despite the slowest performance figures), the CTS-V still got the nod as the best value and fastest sedan. According to previews and tests of the new C55 and RS4, the CTS-V is on-par using the old LS6, but there has yet to be a test with the new LS2-powered model.

Dont get me wrong, If it isnt GM it has to be VW/Audi... The RS4 is another car I love (even with it not being out yet), but its going to have to duke it out with the CTS-V before it takes my top spot.

...Speaking of the RS4, there is no doubt in my mind that the Chevrolet small-block design will always be the best engine available in any car, tuck, or SUV. Why the hell do you think there have been so many itterations of the engine? Even in todays new models, there are more than ten variations in production vehciles at Chevrolet, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick, Saab, Vauxhaull/Opel, and Holden...

Funny thing happens with the small block Chevy. Its bigger and more powerful than it's European and Japanese competition and still gets better fuel mileage in the long run... The Corvette Z06 with it's 7.0L LS7 will get 16MPG in the city and 26MPG on the highway, while your precious M5 gets 12MPG in the city and 18MPG on the highway... So much for your small-size is better arguement...

You still mention the TVRs, and they have been given their performance credentials by anyone who knows anything about cars here in the United States. But untill they are sold or tested in the United States, how exactly are we supposed to guage them as compared to the Corvette, Viper, etc?

 

[neanderthal]

shall we bring up the fact that fuel economy is dependent on many things besides engine size

like gearing. vettes have an 0.50 6th gear ratio. i bet the M5s is closer to about 0.80

how about weight? vette weighs about 3200lbs. E90 M5 close to 4000lbs

do we need to mention aerodynamics? a low slung sports coupe vs a four door sedan

and so on and so on. the fuel economy argument is null and void. too many factors that affect it have nothing to do with engine performance.

 

[Joey D]

Still bigger engines tend to get much worse fuel economy just due to the displacement, more fuel needs to occupy the area.

 

[Disturbed07]

Should I assume I'm the only one who see an M5 as Full-Size? And I am slo the only one who sees a Continental GT in the same class?
I'm also glad somebody brought up the horrifying reliability of Italian Sports cars...
Fuel ecomnomy is quite the valid argument, why? because the all-great M5 has 7 gears, and is still geared so much lower than a Vette, with only 6. why? because they're putting performance over practicality, while the Z06 sacrifices some performance for it's sake, and still runs with it. (assuming it doesnt beat it)
P.S. the Z06 is under 3100 lbs, I believe

 

[Wolfe]

How many times must I tell you that Opel is GM, GM doesn't take them, they use them because GM owns Opel, so its a GM company.

The point is that Detroit isn't getting the job done.

As for the fuel economy of a 'Vette versus an M5, not only does gearing play a significant factor, so does torque -- the 'Vette's engine won't have to work as hard to cruise along in top gear at highway speed.

Another factor is performance efficiency versus fuel efficiency -- there's a bit of a difference in the "fancy" electronics and technology employed to pursue each goal. The M5's engine is a high-tech, race-bred powerplant made specifically to make power efficiently. Fuel economy wasn't priority-number-one. On the other hand, BMW's "lesser" engines, the ones featured in the everyday 3-series or 5-series, feature technologies such as BMW's Valvetronic throttle-less intake, which greatly enhances fuel economy but is unsuitable for a high-performance M engine.

 

[Disturbed07]

The point is that Detroit isn't getting the job done.

As for the fuel economy of a 'Vette versus an M5, not only does gearing play a significant factor, so does torque -- the 'Vette's engine won't have to work as hard to cruise along in top gear at highway speed.

Another factor is performance efficiency versus fuel efficiency -- there's a bit of a difference in the "fancy" electronics and technology employed to pursue each goal. The M5's engine is a high-tech, race-bred powerplant made specifically to make power efficiently. Fuel economy wasn't priority-number-one. On the other hand, BMW's "lesser" engines, the ones featured in the everyday 3-series or 5-series, feature technologies such as BMW's Valvetronic throttle-less intake, which greatly enhances fuel economy but is unsuitable for a high-performance M engine.

While that's true, about fuel economy, doesnt that simply make the Vette more fuel effecient? they have the same power, the M5 gets an extra gear, and still uses more gas. Secondly, the M3's get worse gas milage than a Z06 as well... with less weight and less power.(than M5) So what gives here? I have no idea what the lesser model BMW's get, but are they comparable to a Z06? I'm not one to knock BMW, but gas milage aint their bag, not from what I've seen.
The Z06 is a hell of a car, Period. it's the only car ever built that can run mid-11's, reach almost 200mph, and still get over 25 mpg's that I can think of. it handles with the best, maybe snappy for some, but that's the nature of torque, along with lightweight. It's simply an amazing machine, as much as I've loved Viper's, right now, they've got nothing for it, and I can't think of a car under 250,000 that does, unless an F430 is under 250,000. but they won't get the milage, everyday drivability, and most likely, are far less reliable.
Isnt Detroit getting it done? they still sell massive amounts of cars, provide massive benefits for the economy, and develope plenty there.
Could they do better? probabley. are they doing badly? I'd say not at all, I think far more attention needs to be paid to the UAW, as profit is their only problem right now, which brings up wether or not their bottom line, with billions in debt includes loans, as they would quickly bring that back into profit. if they don't, well, a simple 9 million sold next year, making 500 hundred profit off each car, 4.5 billion... I really don't think they're in that big of a hole here, not to say it's not bad, but when we say billions in debt, we're talking about a company that only needs a simple 2% profit from sales for one year to reach ground zero or better, let alone the small amount to reach it in 5. (.4%)

Edit: Ford GT... okay, anything else?

 

[Joey D]

The point is that Detroit isn't getting the job done.

As for the fuel economy of a 'Vette versus an M5, not only does gearing play a significant factor, so does torque -- the 'Vette's engine won't have to work as hard to cruise along in top gear at highway speed.

Another factor is performance efficiency versus fuel efficiency -- there's a bit of a difference in the "fancy" electronics and technology employed to pursue each goal. The M5's engine is a high-tech, race-bred powerplant made specifically to make power efficiently. Fuel economy wasn't priority-number-one. On the other hand, BMW's "lesser" engines, the ones featured in the everyday 3-series or 5-series, feature technologies such as BMW's Valvetronic throttle-less intake, which greatly enhances fuel economy but is unsuitable for a high-performance M engine.

Detroit still owns the German car company, it's easier to bring stuff over from Europe and put it into the American market then spend billions to come up with a new platform. If anyone things GM is stealing from Opel they are idiots because Opel is a branch of GM, it's be like saying Scion steals stuff from Toyota.

The Z06 is all performance oriented, for the love of God it's a streetable racecar. But it gets better mileage then the M5, and in this day and age fuel is important to just about everyone. But my question is, if pushrods suck so much why is it that the LS7 can pump out 505hp and get 20+ mgp? Guess pushrods don't suck.

 

[neanderthal]

one answer; 7 LITERS

that makes 505 hp pretty easily.

that also makes for god- like torque, which is a boon to fuel economy as stated previously. coupled with light weight, better aero, and better (top gear) gearing, that translates to better fuel economy.

not that difficult really.

BMWs M5 has an unladen weight of 4012lbs (from BMWs site) and a Cd of 0.31 top gear ratios is 0.83. do you want to compare the vettes numbers?

the BMW weighs almost 1/3 more, has a smaller engine (again about 1/3) has a higher (numerially) top gear and a worse Cd.

i think the only real way to compare is to put the vette engine in an E90 M5 and the M5 engine in a vette, and measure performance and fuel economy. im not sure you'd see much change either way. engien only, that way we can measure what each is working with.

i predict little change either way. they are both great engines.

 

[Joey D]

But everyone insist on the BMW M5 being the best thing one the road and takes two more cylinders and a whole host of electronic gizmos to get up to the Vette's horsepower rating. Also it gets worse fuel mileage.

The way people talk about the M5 it should be able to do everything, including get up and cook you breakfast in the morning.

But in reality it doesn't, proving that the M5, while a great car, is not in fact God himself in automobile form.

 

[High-Test]

But in reality it doesn't, proving that the M5, while a great car, is not in fact God himself in automobile form.

But M5Power is.

Where is Doug?

 

[Joey D]

But M5Power is.

Where is Doug?

He went AWOL and never returned.

 

[Poverty]

The Escalade was never made to race, it's made to be an ulta luxery SUV that has one of the nicest drivetrains I've seen. If you race an Escalade you deserve to be laughed at.

No you deserved to be laughed at. Ok there we go.

What kind of crap is that. "Its not a racecar so It doesnt have to handle good". That is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. The main selling point of an X5 is for the reason that it handles so well.

But just look at the 'Ring times, which most people seem to go by around here. The Z06 ran a 7:42 which is pretty damn fast.

And now look at the person who set that time with the Z06. Hes a uber super driver. That mans pretty much in a different league to many of the other drivers. And then theres the conspiracy of that Z06 running a supercharger which woulkd explain why theres been no offical word from GM.

If one were to get a replacement RS4 motor, or an RS4 crate engine, how much would it cost? A 350 H.O crate engine costs 2400 dollars, and puts out 330 horses and 380 ft-lbs of torque. How much does a similar Audi motor cost?

If you asked audi for a RS4 motor they would laugh at you and tell you to go on your way. The only way you will get your hands on a RS4 motor is if you buy the whole car.

Yes, let's get a European magazine to review an American car that they don't get in the first place. Great idea. Here's another good one for you, I'll call up Motor Trend, and get them to review TVR's. We won't even have to test them, we'll just go on what we've heard about them, and a general bias towards European cars. Sound good?

Well I cant remeber if it was the V version but several european mags did drive and test the caddilac xlr actually matey.

But everyone insist on the BMW M5 being the best thing one the road and takes two more cylinders and a whole host of electronic gizmos to get up to the Vette's horsepower rating.

 

[Joey D]

No you deserved to be laughed at. Ok there we go.

What kind of crap is that. "Its not a racecar so It doesnt have to handle good". That is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. The main selling point of an X5 is for the reason that it handles so well.

The only SUV I've ever seen that could go around a road course was a Typhoon and thats only because it's low and AWD. Escalades aren't meant to go around a track, you don't need really good handeling because that would sacrifice the ride quality. The Escalade is a big truck that is meant to be something that rides nice, not a race SUV.

And now look at the person who set that time with the Z06. Hes a uber super driver. That mans pretty much in a different league to many of the other drivers. And then theres the conspiracy of that Z06 running a supercharger which woulkd explain why theres been no offical word from GM.

You are thinking of the Blue Devil which was just a hope and dream of GM, but it never made it past a test mule. The time around the ring was from a Z06, which has been confirmed by magazines.

If you asked audi for a RS4 motor they would laugh at you and tell you to go on your way. The only way you will get your hands on a RS4 motor is if you buy the whole car.

No they wouldn't you can order any part, to any production car, through a dealership. I just don't think you wouldn't like the price.

 

[Swift]

No you deserved to be laughed at. Ok there we go.

What kind of crap is that. "Its not a racecar so It doesnt have to handle good". That is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. The main selling point of an X5 is for the reason that it handles so well.

Actually, you deserve to be laughed at. But I won't do it here.

Yeah, and people by an X5 because of the handling...yeah, right. They buy it because it's a BMW. Also the Escalade plays to the general theme of flashy SUV's that for some reason has taken hold of this nation. It never has had anything to do with performance, handling or even towing capcity. It's about the look. Just like it is with other cars. There are cars that you can buy to hang with almost any luxury/super car on the market for much less. But people buy them for the status and the name.

 

[Joey D]

Actually, you deserve to be laughed at. But I won't do it here.

Yeah, and people by an X5 because of the handling...yeah, right. They buy it because it's a BMW. Also the Escalade plays to the general theme of flashy SUV's that for some reason has taken hold of this nation. It never has had anything to do with performance, handling or even towing capcity. It's about the look. Just like it is with other cars. There are cars that you can buy to hang with almost any luxury/super car on the market for much less. But people buy them for the status and the name.

Actually the GMT900 Escalade has a little performance with the 400hp V8, AWD, and 6 speed auto.

 

[Swift]

Actually the GMT900 Escalade has a little performance with the 400hp V8, AWD, and 6 speed auto.

Granted, but it's still not about the 1/4 mile or getting a sick 0-60 time. It's about showing off the fact that you have the GMT900 with 400hp V8, AWD, and 6 speed auto.

I'm sure you could take the same money and buy a Vette. So, it's about status.