Would you like to see DR affected by aid usage?

[Veinz]

It took me a long time to get used to playing without cones or some sort of driving line, they were a massive crutch for me. If you want to penalise people using other assists then these must be held to the same standard.

 

[Groundfish]

Cones...Good for practice. Used in driving schools and casual track days.
I think my opinion is if you need them in race maybe you don’t know the track as well as you could...

 

[6BK]

Perhaps people should look at this a different way. Assists don't necessarily make you faster, they make you more consistent. Most of the time in fact the assists may actually make you slower. When I started playing using a DS4 I needed the assists not to set better times, because on a perfect lap I was actually quicker with assists turned off, but I did need them to help me stay consistent because they helped keep me on the track at times. With a wheel I find consistency is much easier (my experience) so I've turned assists off and set faster laps. OK, yes, this is a benefit to me because I have an assist that helps me stay in line that another driver may not be using but really it is also a benefit to everyone else too. If drivers use assists in order to reduce the incidents of them losing control of their cars then they are also less likely to crash into other cars. On-line races can be carnage at times and we have all witnessed outright bad driving but most accidents are just that, unintentional accidents. If we turned off all assists I reckon it would increase the number of those accidents thus reducing fun for those who asked for them to be turned off in the first place.

Another point is that GT Sport is not the ultimate sim racing game and the physics are not the closest to reality that one can find. The game however is very accessible for most ages and that is with or without a wheel. The racing too is pretty damn close and can be some of the best to be found even compared to more realistic games. Accessibility increases numbers of players (not that they are huge now but imagine how low they would be if we got all elitist and started making life more difficult for those arriving to it) and I would rather more drivers in close competition than more realism on an empty track.

Finally, there are more things creating inequalities than assists. Some players have worse internet connections, some are playing with a controller on their lap, some may be playing with 1 arm, 1 eye...whatever. My biggest handicap is that I only get a tiny amount of time to play compared to others. At what point do we stop differentiating? Really I don't care so long as the other players are fair and the racing is competitive, close and fun.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I really don't get the issue with cones.

I use them as a visual braking reference marker.
No difference than using the 100m, 50m braking boards, no difference than using the start of a piece of astro turf, no difference to using a black mark on the rumble strip.
Use what you want.

It depends on the speed I'm travelling, the type of corner, the type of car, the type of tyres, etc. as to how I use them.
It could even be argued that it's worse to rely on cones as a visual marker, as they can be removed whereas the other visual markers can't.

Some people really are quite snobby about the way other people play this game.

 

[Veinz]

I really don't get the issue with cones.
.

There is no issue, they are just a much easier reference, especially when you don't know where every braking point is. I'm just saying it's a bit of a double standard to want to penalize tc or csa but not these.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

There is no issue, they are just a much easier reference, especially when you don't know where every braking point is. I'm just saying it's a bit of a double standard to want to penalize tc or csa but not these.

So you feel that if there is a permanent black mark on a rumble strip which you use as a braking marker, and I turn the cones on and there is a cone at the black mark on the rumble strip, that that is the same advantage as using CSA.

Roger that.

 

[Veinz]

*whoosh*

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Indeed.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I swear to god some people here would be better off just building a gaming PC and buying a subscription to iRacing and being done with it.

The fact of the matter is that you are going to have people that are at different stages of confidence in racing sims. You have to account for those people.

Some people want to separate DS4 from wheel users and / or lock you to in car view without any aids, no ghosting, max damage, Basically they just want to be the last man left racing for easy

That's really all this is. This is a form of elitism which is incredibly common within my interactions in the sim racing community, because **** easing people into things on their own time and making a racing game less stressful then it already is, right?

 

[VolkswagenX]

This thread is devolving into "git gud" territory, which is a shame since I don't think that's what the OP intended.

I get the feeling that the people that use assists are feeling excluded which in my opinion doesn't have to be the case. A driver who is super fast and using all assists will still move up in rank faster than a no assist driver how finishes in the middle of the field when using a system that combines finishing position plus assists used.

Rewarding people for using less assists is a win win for me. You get an added bonus to your results and you become a cleaner driver because ramming others and divebombing has consequences. Sadly, the discussing about assists always turns into a discussing about speed.

 

[Majorwolf72]

It’s funny how people react when you tell them „I know, no one ever tells you this, but you suck at it.“

Or one just speaks in general terms and all of a sudden the digs start barking.

The bell curve applies to all things, GTS is no exception. 80% of the players suck. 17,5 % are good or very good. 2,5 % excel.

The difference is: Some try to get to the top20 %. They may not succeed. And others will always find excuses why they couldn’t make it. The other drivers, drivers using assists, the penalty system, you name it. I usually tell them „When the Olympian failed in the pool, it was the waters‘ fault.“

I won’t blame people for using assists. They‘ll gain experience and may switch them off at some point or not.

 

[vvise]

Really close split!

Logically I think it makes sense to leave things as they are. The DR system is primarily for matchmaking. Why should someone using driving aids have to win more races than someone without to get into the same rank lobby. It should be purely down to their speed, not how they achieve it.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Here is an example of why not having some assists can put you in a disadvantage:
My perspective:

The others perspective:

Not only did he spun my car around, he put his peddle down and drove through me and he was able to do that with the help of TCS. I'm still fine with people using assist like TCS, but I don't think it's unreasonable to give drivers a small bonus in DR for every assist that is turned of.

 

[GT_Alex74]

I voted no. The fastest guys don't use anything aside ABS anyway. ABS and TCS are part of modern race cars in real life as well. Some ECUs can even adjust power delivery according to which part of the track you're driving, and you can even have corner specific maps for active suspensions as well (although active suspensions are banned in most series). Assists or not, in the end, aliens gonna alien.

 

[Groundfish]

Here is an example of why not having some assists can put you in a disadvantage:
My perspective:

The others perspective:

Not only did he spun my car around, he put his peddle down and drove through me and he was able to do that with the help of TCS. I'm still fine with people using assist like TCS, but I don't think it's unreasonable to give drivers a small bonus in DR for every assist that is turned of.

Well, I began the game listening to the entire sim racing community out to screw everyone by saying don’t use assists.
So, I was always late on the throttle (racing cars not n class).
I turned on tcs a bit and WHOA. I could push how early to get on throttle and the worse it would do is slow me down. I could learn..wow. Also if you have trouble with people contacting you or a tracks tough use asm and tcs. Staying on track is fun.
Tbh in that clip the front car got hit by accelerating late, probably the same situation I myself was in.
Here’s the thing. After a while of running assists you get good enough to where you feel they are intrusive or preventing you from better times, or not.
Until that point run them and have fun.
In GT having tcs on is an insurance policy. ASM even more so.
A person has to think for themself and race for themself. You can’t stop midrace and google am I using the meta or should I run ABS weak.
Many drivers have achieved a plus with aids. For the average driver who doesn’t live in the game I say run em and have fun.
Cones I fear because people knock em out and then where do you brake? They are great for learning tracks and what not, but I would be apprehensive of becoming over dependent on them.
How many average players are so fast that aids are messing up their times?
I’d say almost zero out of millions. I’m not telling anyone how to play. I don’t care. Just relaying over what my experience has been. I say keep them on until you notice them hindering you. Online racing’s hard enough without fighting the car

Further regarding the very idea that aids should reduce dr points?
That’s stupid.

As a racer use everything you believe that helps you that’s allowed under the rules!
There’s no points for style.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Well, I began the game listening to the entire sim racing community out to screw everyone by saying don’t use assists.
So, I was always late on the throttle (racing cars not n class).
I turned on tcs a bit and WHOA. I could push how early to get on throttle and the worse it would do is slow me down. I could learn..wow. Also if you have trouble with people contacting you or a tracks tough use asm and tcs. Staying on track is fun.
Tbh in that clip the front car got hit by accelerating late, probably the same situation I myself was in.
Here’s the thing. After a while of running assists you get good enough to where you feel they are intrusive or preventing you from better times, or not.
Until that point run them and have fun.
In GT having tcs on is an insurance policy. ASM even more so.
A person has to think for themself and race for themself. You can’t stop midrace and google am I using the meta or should I run ABS weak.
Many drivers have achieved a plus with aids. For the average driver who doesn’t live in the game I say run em and have fun.
Cones I fear because people knock em out and then where do you brake? They are great for learning tracks and what not, but I would be apprehensive of becoming over dependent on them.
How many average players are so fast that aids are messing up their times?
I’d say almost zero out of millions. I’m not telling anyone how to play. I don’t care. Just relaying over what my experience has been. I say keep them on until you notice them hindering you. Online racing’s hard enough without fighting the car

Further regarding the very idea that aids should reduce dr points?
That’s stupid.

As a racer use everything you believe that helps you that’s allowed under the rules!
There’s no points for style.

You missed the point of my post. The guy behind was quicker out of the corner and had enough space on the right to do a clean overtake but took the option of not only spinning me out but also just powering through me. I know TCS is used in real life racing but I don't think TCS in real life turns your car into a tank. You also make it seem like I'm saying people who use assists are not allowed to have fun. I will say it again, I don't mind people using assists and I am not a fan of exclusion. I just think it is fair to have a small bonus for any assist your turn of. I think the game Ferrari Challenge did that to and I believe it worked really good because it gave you incentive to become a better driver. I also believe that driving with less assists helps you become a cleaner driver and that should be good for everybody playing the game.

 

[Sander 001]

Would love to see a Weak ABS only race, maybe for a Top 24 Super Stars race.

 

[Winnie847]

I voted no, but am not totally against the concept.

I think aids that exist in real life should be allowed with no affect on points, like TCS and ABS. I've never used CSA or ASM but have read a little about them and they seem pretty unrealistic. I've heard CSA can actually speed you up, but I would imagine that's only for people who aren't the best at making their inputs smooth or are prone to oversteering. I'm not really sure exactly what ASM does, but I feel that if these aids can speed you up and don't slow you down in the same way TCS does, then either your car should be nerfed a little as a result or maybe just gain a little less DR for the race. Although that does make me weary of what Sven said about players using aids being matched against slower players not using aids and eventually skewing the ranking system in unintended ways.

Another thing that I'm not sure was mentioned, is the tire wear differences when using these aids. I don't know if this is 100% true across the board all the time, but I was watching a replay of this week's Race C, which is Gr.2 @ Fuji so I could get a good idea of the tire strategies of the top 3. The options are mediums & hards, and it seems like mediums aren't the best choice because they are gone after 1/3rd of the race....oh wait, except this one guy who was using TCS, CSA and ASM. His tires were 50% less worn than everyone else's who was on mediums. He went 9 laps on them when everyone else was struggling with 5-6. In cases like this, I'm not sure if it would be best to nerf the car's power, or for him to gain less DR, but either way it definitely made it seem like he had an unfair advantage on tire wear in a race where tire wear is a huge part of the strategy.

 

[Groundfish]

You missed the point of my post. The guy behind was quicker out of the corner and had enough space on the right to do a clean overtake but took the option of not only spinning me out but also just powering through me. I know TCS is used in real life racing but I don't think TCS in real life turns your car into a tank. You also make it seem like I'm saying people who use assists are not allowed to have fun. I will say it again, I don't mind people using assists and I am not a fan of exclusion. I just think it is fair to have a small bonus for any assist your turn of. I think the game Ferrari Challenge did that to and I believe it worked really good because it gave you incentive to become a better driver. I also believe that driving with less assists helps you become a cleaner driver and that should be good for everybody playing the game.

Well, I would say I respectfully disagree.
When I first began running the gr3 and 4 online, I turned on tcs and asm because I wanted to be clean. For myself, first time ever online gaming/racing, it made me nervous even getting adrenaline. I mean it’s a competitive thing.
I don’t want my mistake to ruin the race of others. Default abs is a great example, in race with dirty air and could be tire wear this helps prevent the out of control missile car under braking.
Tcs helps prevent cars spinning out of control.
Asm helps prevent cars spinning out of control. Active Stabiliy Management-it will greatly help the car remain under control if you get hit by careless drivers.. Tons of real cars have this feature. It’s for safety! Could be active suspension in some cars, in some it prevents slipping from non drive wheels by automatic brake application, in some if you go into a spin it will brake all four wheels at once. Good example is the last section of downhill turns at Alsace, in an mr it can be easy to overcook the entry and hit the wall. With asm on in the rs01 if you go into a spin there it will cut power and apply brakes for you-you kinda get a four wheel drift slowdown, anyways there’s diff systems. The McClaren version makes it much easier to get better times for me in this game for example.
It’s easy to make mistakes whether due to nerves or running behind someone you are trying to get by and flooring it too soon on exit. Nerves are a big thing. Running no assists requires much more precise input control which can be tough unless you just go slower.
But going too slow puts you at risk because others online probably won’t be.
If you were running asm and tcs your car may not have spun in the above clip, further you may have not been going slow in the racing line creating a hazard.
So asm and tcs help prevent people from losing control A. by themselves and B. when others hit them
The object of racing is not to brag about using less assists than the other guy, it is to have fun competing with others.
I apologize if my points might seem rude. They are not intended to be. I do think though that these things need to be said, because the majority in sim racing will tell new people not to run even tcs, and I don’t believe that’s the best way for people to begin being able to have fun as less experienced simrace participants.
Let’s face it, not every driver in online is going to be in control and interested in avoiding contact at all costs.
For me dealing with that is part of the fun of it, because that’s how racing is.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Well, I would say I respectfully disagree.
When I first began running the gr3 and 4 online, I turned on tcs and asm because I wanted to be clean. For myself, first time ever online gaming/racing, it made me nervous even getting adrenaline. I mean it’s a competitive thing.
I don’t want my mistake to ruin the race of others. Default abs is a great example, in race with dirty air and could be tire wear this helps prevent the out of control missile car under braking.
Tcs helps prevent cars spinning out of control.
Asm helps prevent cars spinning out of control. Active Stabiliy Management-it will greatly help the car remain under control if you get hit by careless drivers.. Tons of real cars have this feature. It’s for safety! Could be active suspension in some cars, in some it prevents slipping from non drive wheels by automatic brake application, in some if you go into a spin it will brake all four wheels at once. Good example is the last section of downhill turns at Alsace, in an mr it can be easy to overcook the entry and hit the wall. With asm on in the rs01 if you go into a spin there it will cut power and apply brakes for you-you kinda get a four wheel drift slowdown, anyways there’s diff systems. The McClaren version makes it much easier to get better times for me in this game for example.
It’s easy to make mistakes whether due to nerves or running behind someone you are trying to get by and flooring it too soon on exit. Nerves are a big thing. Running no assists requires much more precise input control which can be tough unless you just go slower.
But going too slow puts you at risk because others online probably won’t be.
If you were running asm and tcs your car may not have spun in the above clip, further you may have not been going slow in the racing line creating a hazard.
So asm and tcs help prevent people from losing control A. by themselves and B. when others hit them
The object of racing is not to brag about using less assists than the other guy, it is to have fun competing with others.
I apologize if my points might seem rude. They are not intended to be. I do think though that these things need to be said, because the majority in sim racing will tell new people not to run even tcs, and I don’t believe that’s the best way for people to begin being able to have fun as less experienced simrace participants.
Let’s face it, not every driver in online is going to be in control and interested in avoiding contact at all costs.
For me dealing with that is part of the fun of it, because that’s how racing is.

It's fine that you disagree, but I just don't understand on which of my points. Your are talking about this from the controlling your car perspective. That's not the point I'm making. I've only been playing with a wheel since December and I was using TCS the first month of wheel use to get used to it. I have no problems with people using assists (saying it again). There are more benefits to using assists than just car control. My point is about the effect your assists have when making contact with others and how I believe it makes people drive less clean. There are many quick drivers in GTS that can't make a clean overtake and will use the assists to drive through you like you are not there. Of course I can turn on the same assists but that will make the game less fun for me. It's when I turned TCS of that I learned what effects the use of TCS had when bumping others. It helped me become a cleaner driver because I realize that a small touch can ruin another drivers race. TCS and ASM turns your car into a tank.

I'm not advocating for double points here. Just a small bonus for every assist turned off. Is that elitist? I still believe a person winning a race with every assist turned on should receive more points than the person coming in second with no assists (at equal DR levels), I just think the points deficit to the winning driver should be smaller for the driver in second place. Is that really such a horrible thing to ask for? Whats wrong with getting rewarded for an extra challenge? That why I enjoy playing a competitive game like GTS.

Nothing to brag about here by the way. I'm not that fast. I'm a low level DR B at the moment but that has nothing to do with pace ans more to do with avoiding others taking each other out. I personally rate myself at the high DR C range and I kind of miss racing against others in C/S lobbies because somehow the races felt cleaner. I feel like there is a very big "anything to win" mentality in B/S lobbies.

 

[Groundfish]

@VolkswagenX
Yes, good points. I agree on the move to b from c and s sr. When I became b on dr, I felt I enjoyed the c racing more also by far.
Points taken.
👍

 

[Tassie_tiger]

While I understand some of the points being made, I can't go along with the idea of people getting extra benefits simply on their own choices.

It's a bit like suggesting a sprinter should get some sort of compensation because he chooses to run bare-foot instead of spikes, and not use starting blocks.
He is, of course, allowed to use both of those "assists" should he choose.
The fact he prefers not to is his call.

I for one don't use TC, simply because I think I'm faster without it.
Why should I get some extra benefit from that?

Everyone can, if they wish, turn on any of the options in the menus.
The same rules apply to all.
It's up to you to decide if you wish to or not.
And I don't believe you deserve "extras" because you choose not to.

 

[GT5Power]

For reference: Current ratings 43323/99.

One of the main draws of GT Sport is the daily race system, in my opinion. You can log in whenever you want and almost instantly race a group of evenly matched players, no matter where you're from, how good you are et cetera. This inclusiveness and immediacy is something only GTS brings to the table. While the esports section of the game has gotten pretty popular and there are many serious and competitive drivers, the game is still meant to cater to everyone. This goes for FIA races too, since there's no DR restriction (correct me if I'm wrong). And since PD intended for GTS's online mode to be accessible to all players regardless of skill level, to me it's only logical for every player to be allowed to race with whichever settings they prefer to drive fast.

Let's take myself as an example: I'm a controller user who drives with ABS on default and strong CSA. I've also done the first 2/3 or so of my Sport Mode races with TCS 2. During that time, I knew I had to get rid of TCS because it was getting more and more apparent as my DR rose that TCS was crippling my corner exits. As a result, now that I've turned it off, I've never felt disadvantaged against players using TCS. The same will eventually be true for CSA; as evidenced by the fact that top racers don't use any aids but ABS (I'm talking about race cars, cases like this week's race A are exceptions). Aids make you faster until you reach a certain skill level, after that they hinder you. When you're past that point, you shouldn't be rewarded more points due to having turned off a setting that makes you slower.

For the sake of simplicity, let's suppose that aids always give players an advantage. If player A and player B have the same DR, player A, who uses aids, is less skilled than player B, who doesn't. However, as their DR shows, their performance is roughly the same because aids make player A faster. If the suggested changes were to be implemented, player B would have a higher DR than player A. He would then be pitted against player C, who uses aids and is on the same "skill level" as him. C would have an advantage thanks to aids, but no skill disadvantage to counter it. Matchmaking would be unfair.

Bottom line: Aids level the playing field. They may give some players an advantage, but that advantage is offset by their being slow enough to need aids in the first place. At the end of the day, everyone is even pace-wise and as @Sven Jurgens said, that's the exact point of having a rating like this. There are more things than skill that factor into a player's overall performance and we shouldn't only take one of them into account.

Just my 2 cents

 

[fastone371]

unless I'm incorrect abs, asm, and traction controll are all real systems used in racing cars. I'm not sure what the rules are on how to use them in a race but personally I believe if they are real aids then u can use them if allowed in real racing. No anti steer though cuz its a fake aid. Just my opinion.

And yet the highest form of motorsport, F1, has none of these aids. Very few racing classes permit TCS, ABS, etc.. unless they are running showroom racing classes.

 

[Majorwolf72]

And yet the highest form of motorsport, F1, has none of these aids. Very few racing classes permit TCS, ABS, etc.. unless they are running showroom racing classes.

If you race competitively in real life on a certain level, you have such a profound understanding of the physics involved that you simply don’t need certain aids. So the „and yet“ is nothing but pretty logical. Also, FIA aims to make whatever competition sellable, so they have a strong influence on how he different leagues use aids, too.

 

[fastone371]

If you race competitively in real life on a certain level, you have such a profound understanding of the physics involved that you simply don’t need certain aids. So the „and yet“ is nothing but pretty logical. Also, FIA aims to make whatever competition sellable, so they have a strong influence on how he different leagues use aids, too.

My point was that all of these aids are not as popular in race cars as many people here seem to think. It is in fact very rare for race cars to have TCS, ABS, etc. I was not making any reference to driver skill. ABS, TCS, ASM, etc is only popular in new cars coming out of the showrooms.

 

[Majorwolf72]

My point was that all of these aids are not as popular in race cars as many people here seem to think. It is in fact very rare for race cars to have TCS, ABS, etc. I was not making any reference to driver skill. ABS, TCS, ASM, etc is only popular in new cars coming out of the showrooms.

Ok, gotcha. Yup, y‘all try that 911 RSR on iracing „Dude, where‘s the ABS??“