Would you like to see the progression system removed for GT6?

[C_Raccoon23]

Each test should be more rigorous and lengthy, and it should be at least somewhat difficult to pass so you actually have to learn something and drive right to be able to beat each test. And there should only be around 3-4 total licenses as a result, with the first one being fairly simple and the last few being very challenging.

It's already been that way in a sense.

I don't know what license tests in GT5 are like since I didn't bother with them, but in previous games you started with simple braking tests in B-License all the way to doing a full lap around different tracks in S-License. It doesn't get more difficult than doing a lap as fast as you can without going off track or hitting anything in order to pass, in my opinion. And heck, the last license test in GT4 was to do a whole lap around Nurburgring.

 

[KinLM]

It's already been that way in a sense.

I don't know what license tests in GT5 are like since I didn't bother with them, but in previous games you started with simple braking tests in B-License all the way to doing a full lap around different tracks in S-License. It doesn't get more difficult than doing a lap as fast as you can without going off track or hitting anything in order to pass, in my opinion. And heck, the last license test in GT4 was to do a whole lap around Nurburgring.

In GT5, I've golded in every single test. In the previous versions, it's all been like I mentioned above in a sense, yes. But the thing is, the first challenges have always been far too short and don't teach you anything, and the last tests are still difficult, but quite easy to pass. They shouldn't have golds and silvers and bronzes, they just need to have a pass or a fail. Because even in the S licenses, it's always been quite easy (for me at least) to pass, yet the gap to get anything more like a silver is too great and I'm usually stuck with just a bronze. Mind you, I am a controller user, if I had a wheel then golds and silvers might be possible.

Aside from the trophy system, they had the licenses perfect in the earlier GT's. The only way I think they could improve it is take out maybe the B and A license, as they just add time and don't teach you hardly anything.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I got gold on in all the S Licenses. I think one of the tricks to gold is to turn off the ABS? I think that's what I did and I miraculously found another second or two to shave off.

 

[Lain]

Best in what way? Certainly not in simulating how racing actually works. By far, that's usually better covered by games that don't bother with progression.

Just my subjective opinion.

 

[ginsunh]

I don't mind the system, but players should start with WAY less credits. GT5 allowed you to buy/build a ringer (at least for Clubman Cup) right off the bat. GT1 and GT2 had you working hard for every credit, and even upgrading minor items was a measurably big step.

 

[Exorcet]

I don't mind the system, but players should start with WAY less credits. GT5 allowed you to buy/build a ringer (at least for Clubman Cup) right off the bat. GT1 and GT2 had you working hard for every credit, and even upgrading minor items was a measurably big step.

Less starting credits won't do a thing.

My GT1 strategy: Buy used car, do spot race 80 times, buy Dodge Viper. Win everything without even having a license.

My GT2 strategy: Buy used car, grind some race, buy Dodge Viper, Grind Seattle Circuit American Car race, sell Cobra, buy Viper GTS-R Team Oreca.

And why is it an issue anyway? If someone wants to dominate straight out of the box, let them. It doesn't matter. All PD should do is provide suggested PP, hp, weight, tuning, etc restrictions for each race. If someone wants to race with cars that are competitive with the AI cars, they'll follow the rules. If not, they'll bring their GT1 race car to the Sunday Cup.

 

[Luminis]

If by progression system you mean leveling, than yes, do away with that. Keep an optional career mode, much like what GT4 featured. Add a custom race creator of sorts, though.

However, make all the cars and upgrades available in arcade mode and, especially, for multiplayer. Some perks, like visual customization, should be limited to those who've been doing well in the career mode. Nothing special, nothign that affects a car's performance. Just a little incentive to play the career mode for those who want a carrot on a stick, of sorts.

That way, everyone can access basically everything from the get-go, but you still could create a career mode that's about collecting your cars and such. As for the incentives, I'd go with stuff like some select rims or body kits being unlocked for a given car upon receiving it in the career mode. Nothing fancy, really.

 

[Exorcet]

Some perks, like visual customization, should be limited to those who've been doing well in the career mode.

It would be pretty bad if you couldn't livery just because didn't play career.

If people want incentives, why not use trophies. Trophies only in career. Or people could use the stats page like we have in GT5. People shouldn't be punished for trying to enjoy the game. So many people say they derive fun from progression. Well, if that is true, they shouldn't need incentives for anything. Let the free mode players be able to play free mode. Locking anything significant to career would defeat the whole purpose.

 

[Luminis]

It would be pretty bad if you couldn't livery just because didn't play career.

As I said, nothing that extreme. For example, buying a car in the career mode gives you access to a carbon fibre hood and carbon fibre mirror. Another car might get a set of TE37V in addition to the TE37 that all cars get. Catch my drift?

Just some minor stuff that you can show off online, to a small extend.

 

[Samus]

That sounds like a NFS game where you have to unlock all the visual customisations. No thanks.

 

[Luminis]

Not all, obviously. It's more along the line of Forza 3's premium cars. In addtion to getting a normal set of mirrors, you get the same mirrors with a carbon fibre skin to use on that car. In addition to getting the usual TE37, you get TE37SL to use on another. Just examples, obviously.

I don't really get how you guys are interpreting that as "locking the livery editor" or "locking all visual customization". I'd just go with one single visual modification, a single item per car that's a slight alteration of what's available, anyways. That'd be all the difference there is. Just a tiny something for those who've been investing the time to stand out from the crowd (if such a thing was actually noticible, that is). See a Ferrari F40 with carbon fiber mirror instead of body coloured ones? That's someone who took the time to buy it by playing the career. That's the only purpose there is to it.

That's hardly something of any significance that's located away from the free mode players. Just throwing a bone for those who're doing a bit more than that.

 

[Exorcet]

All it amounts to is just punishing free mode players though. Why should those who do progression have access to more things?

Ideally, the whole point of player a game is fun, so I don't know why incentives or rewards are required for anything. If there is anything that's exclusive to progression mode, it should only be the progression itself. Win race X, get a race X badge. Making content exclusive for one type of player does not make sense.

 

[sinbad]

All it amounts to is just punishing free mode players though. Why should those who do progression have access to more things?

Ideally, the whole point of player a game is fun, so I don't know why incentives or rewards are required for anything. If there is anything that's exclusive to progression mode, it should only be the progression itself. Win race X, get a race X badge. Making content exclusive for one type of player does not make sense.

Gran Turismo has always done that.
Even with the more generous online credit rewards, accruing 20,000,000 credits for one of those cars still requires you to be more than just a grab-a-car-and-hit-the-track-now-and-then type player. Imagine if you were a "why would I bother connecting a games console to the internet?" type player.

There has always been an argument that everything should be available from the beginning for those that want the content without putting in the "work", and I personally cannot see why not.

It should be a choice to "play the game" as a way to enjoy all the content on offer, but not compulsory.

 

[Luminis]

Making content exclusive for one type of player does not make sense.

It does make a whole lot of sense, in my opinion. Games are always about rewards - overcome a challenge, get a reward. Very few games seem to work without without at least a small incentive... Also, the game isn't going to be solely played by folks who'll be spending their time in multiplayer.

Plus, compared to the situation at hand, it doesn't seem like much of a big deal to have some miniscule items that are exclusive to those who're playing through the career mode. Well, not even career mode, that is. Even those who are playing nothing but mulitplayer races would be able to purchase any car once they've earned the cash - which, then, would grant access to the very few items that need to be unlocked.

 

[Exorcet]

It might be punishing for you as you might be incapable or inefficient in progressing through the mode, but the best drivers should be rewarded with the best cars (earliest at least)

And if I am one of those best drivers? And I still don't care? It has nothing to do with skill or rewards. Progression is boring, hence I don't want it.

But we are animals and therefore if we don't work for possessions or the like then there is less "pleasure" when playing.

Then why do games with no progression exist at all? I don't think it's because they're less fun.

In fact, if progression was the best thing ever, why would people want to do away with it?

It also gives the player more playing time.

Not for me. It's a good way of getting me to put down the game. Now on the other hand if I was just allowed to the enjoy the game, I'd have trouble not playing it.

As a previous poster stated this structure has been consistent in previous iterations so it is highly unlikely that this will change.

No GT game has had damage in GT Mode. So it's unlikely this will change. So we should accept this and not bother trying to change it ever?

It does make a whole lot of sense, in my opinion. Games are always about rewards - overcome a challenge, get a reward.

OK, then let those people go do that, and let me do what I want. Increasing my complete % is not a reward. Taking part in good racing is. IMO.

Very few games seem to work without without at least a small incentive...

Except every hardcore sim ever.

Also, the game isn't going to be solely played by folks who'll be spending their time in multiplayer.

Which is why I want options.

Plus, compared to the situation at hand, it doesn't seem like much of a big deal to have some miniscule items that are exclusive to those who're playing through the career mode. Well, not even career mode, that is. Even those who are playing nothing but mulitplayer races would be able to purchase any car once they've earned the cash - which, then, would grant access to the very few items that need to be unlocked.

Well firstly, "miniscule" can be a matter of opinion. I don't care much about CF mirrors, but I can image someone who does. Why does that person need to put up with hours of waste time just to get certain content? The only people who should have to do that are the people who say they enjoy it.

If they want an incentive, let them have a stats page that they can throw into the face of everyone they run into.

 

[Tapey]

Games are always about rewards - overcome a challenge, get a reward.

I thought that games were about fun? You make it sound like games are about working as if it's a second or third job, that when someone gets home from work to unwind, they want to sit down and grind away at something rather than just have some good old fashioned fun.

I mean, what if when GT6 releases, the first thing that somebody wants to do when they get the game home is partake in a 4 hour endurance race at Le Mans in the career mode? Why should they have to grind away for weeks/months on end building up XP, grinding cash to buy cars, leveling up and doing license tests to unlock that ability?

What does anybody lose by being able to tackle the career mode how they want? By being able to think, "You know what? I think I'm going to tackle some rally races today" and they can, just like that. Take part in a rally series without having to grind to unlock it, do license tests to prove that they can drive a car even though they've played the GT series since the 90's, or wait to be a high enough level or have enough cash to purchase a rally car.

That's what I'd love to see, a career mode with all the restrictions such as cash, xp, licenses and leveling completely gone. That's actually what I meant with the first post and poll by the way. I think some people mistook my wording for meaning no career mode at all, when I actually meant a career mode with all the restrictions completely removed so you can jump around and do as you please whenever you want.

People who want to race classic cars right off the bat? They can. Super GT series instead? No problem. F1 championship? Exotics? Endurance races? Rally series? Go-Kart tournaments? Pick whatever you like and have fun 👍

You're still doing races for a career and progressing through championships etc, it's just that all the artificial barriers put in place to slow your progression through these are completely removed.

The minority that is, the majority should only be listened to.

I wouldn't classify it as a minority when the poll almost has an even 50/50 split, with even a large amount of people who voted no still confessing that they would like to see certain aspects of the system (such as the leveling) completely removed.

 

[Samus]

There are 83 votes on the poll, that is a minority whichever way those votes go.

 

[Luminis]

OK, then let those people go do that, and let me do what I want. Increasing my complete % is not a reward. Taking part in good racing is. IMO.

Which the game would have to provide beforehand.

Except every hardcore sim ever.

GT hardly ever qualified as a hardcore sim.

Well firstly, "miniscule" can be a matter of opinion. I don't care much about CF mirrors, but I can image someone who does. Why does that person need to put up with hours of waste time just to get certain content? The only people who should have to do that are the people who say they enjoy it.

Longevity, for starters. It's interesting that you're talking about wasting one's time when I'm proposing a reward system that would actually reward you for playing the game in whatever way. You get credits online as well, after all. GT just needs to add some sort of credit payout for hotlapping (like Forza).

If they want an incentive, let them have a stats page that they can throw into the face of everyone they run into.

Which wouldn't be part of the actual game, right?

I thought that games were about fun? You make it sound like games are about working as if it's a second or third job, that when someone gets home from work to unwind, they want to sit down and grind away at something rather than just have some good old fashioned fun.

I mean, what if when GT6 releases, the first thing that somebody wants to do when they get the game home is partake in a 4 hour endurance race at Le Mans in the career mode? Why should they have to grind away for weeks/months on end building up XP, grinding cash to buy cars, leveling up and doing license tests to unlock that ability?

Did you even bother to read a word I wrote? If you did, I'd suggest that you are trying again, because, seemingly, you didn't understand what I was saying. At all.

I'll repeat this again; you'd be able to do all of the above, right from the start. All you'd be forgoing would be the ability to put carbon fibre mirrors on the car you just chose to race. Everything else, all cars, all upgrades, all visual custimization, would be available to you. Everything aside from one specific item per car, which would be a slight variation of an item already available for said car. The only thing you'd get from purchasing a car in career mode is exactly that; one little bonus item that hardly influences your ability to take any car in the game for a spin, or to partake in any event, whether in online multiiplayer races or offline. So, no, you wouldn't be grinding XP or cash to be able to enter anything.

What would that be good for, you might ask? Simple. You gain credits for basically anything you're doing. Whatever you do (all options available from the start, remember?) you'd eventually end up with enough cash to purchase a given car in career mode (despite being able to drive, upgrade, tune, paint and whatever else it in the Free Play Mode). Which, in turn, would unlock one of these slightly different items to customize your car with. This'd be just that; a very miniscule way with extremely low overall impact to allow players to show that they've actually been investing some time in the game. I would think that that'd be a lot better than having levels or anything that would actually make you grind for them.

I can't stress enough that the whole idea is not to lock large parts of the game from the players; quite the opposite. All I want is a very unintrusive way to reward players for playing the game and for them to be able to show it within the game. So, for the love of god: Stop blowing this out of proportion and stop turning this idea into something it isn't supposed to be and has never been supposed to be in the first place. I don't know what I'd habe to type to make that any clearer, by the way. No locking of cars, tracks, upgrades, visual customization parts except for one very small detail per car.

On an unrelated note: This whole "I want everything at my fingertips instantly" mentality is part of why we get ten hours single player games these days and games like Dark Souls, which are actually challenging and engaging, are becoming the exception.

 

[Exorcet]

We are not talking about other games as the same conversation would not be suitable for some.

Not sure I follow.

The minority that is, the majority should only be listened to.

Ridiculous. That's frankly a terrible way of doing things unless there is a conflict of interest, which there isn't here. Everyone should be listened to.

What do you mean by trouble? you are implying that you are not capable of progressing through "career mode"

I meant you'd have a hard time getting me to put it down. The closest thing to trouble in GTMode is giving up do to bordem. Winning certainly isn't an issue between the AI's speed, the ability to enter nearly anything in any race, and B-Spec.

GT hardly ever qualified as a hardcore sim.

It doesn't have to, I just wanted show that the concept of an open game works. It's not limited to sims, they're just the ones that make the most use of it.

Longevity, for starters. It's interesting that you're talking about wasting one's time when I'm proposing a reward system that would actually reward you for playing the game in whatever way. You get credits online as well, after all. GT just needs to add some sort of credit payout for hotlapping (like Forza).

I'd honestly get more longevity from a completely open game. Playing the game should be rewarding, as in fun. That's supposed to be the incentive to play. It's not supposed to be like a terrible job where the only reason you go to work is because you get payed.

Which wouldn't be part of the actual game, right?

Why isn't it? And honestly does an incentive need to be in game?

OK, how about this, when people opt for career mode and win prizes, their cars get a special name

"F40 Ferrari World Championship Prize Car"

On an unrelated note: This whole "I want everything at my fingertips instantly" mentality is part of why we get ten hours single player games these days and games like Dark Souls, which are actually challenging and engaging, are becoming the exception.

Dark Souls was a memory test.

And no, wanting to actually have access to the content you payed for has nothing to do with short games. In fact, it's probably more to do with the outdated idea of unlocks. Devs try to make everything accessible, but still insist on having unlocks. Then they screw everything up.

DCS and other similar sims; no progression, infinitely longevity, and makes Dark Souls look like kindergarten to boot. Hopefully other games catch on.

 

[Tapey]

Did you even bother to read a word I wrote? If you did, I'd suggest that you are trying again, because, seemingly, you didn't understand what I was saying. At all.

Yes I did, hence why I quoted it and directly addressed it. Perhaps you should read my post again instead and take note of the point that I was making, because the rest of your post is irrelevant in regards to what I stated.

Also in regards to your "I want everything at my fingertips instantly" mentality rant, content being locked away from the player has no correlation to the difficulty of a game. Take for example the game Dark Souls that you made a point of mentioning. The player can go anywhere that they please in the world of that game, with the only thing stopping them being their own skill. If it were more like GT5, huge chunks of the game world would be locked away and inaccessible for no reason other than to artificially lengthen the game and prohibit player progress in the spirit of outdated design philosophies.

The irony is that my original point was actually in favour of GT5 adopting a similar design to Dark Souls, whereby the player is free to tackle anything that they wish, with the only limiting factor being their own skill. If the player wants to jump in to the deep end, then they can without a need for grinding away to make a meaningless number increase in value first.