Wrong to Race Aggressively?

[Chrunch Houston]

I feel like this is just going to turn into a heated argument. It should stop now 👍

He was in my room last night.

I just want to make sure the incident I'm thinking of involved him before I comment more about it.

If I had really thought he was dirty, I would have kicked him.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Now i am curious to know. Just say what happened, without say names.

 

[Drevenger]

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/rallycross-part-2-series-18-episode-7
What amazed me is none of them complained about fair play, except hamster at the end but that was for the show.


The red Saab still took place in the race afterward. He didn't got kicked out of LA.
And it was in real life.

I understand how to have fun and play fair but it is impossible to have rules and etiquette for every situations. Heck, I drive in game like I paid the car in real life but how many times i've lost cause i didn't want to be portrayed like Schumi. Trying to follow GTP rules clearly didn't made me a better online virtual racecar driver.

Here is the situation OP is describing.
To me, its almost reckless driving, diving on the inside, touching, pushing the envelope.
[/QUOTE]

What about this ?



Clearly against GTP rules around 2:00 mark yet one of the most memorable moment in F1 history.

Its pretty much easy to figure out who is racing dirty but in the heat of the moment its much harder to see who's having bad intentions, who's having the skills, who should be penalised. You gotta considered tons of factors. I got two friends in my FL who quited GT 5 cause of the severity of online rules I was racing in. They didn't have bad intentions.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Most people on GT5 doesn't know how to bump like that. They bump in order or to spin you out or throw you to the sand box.

 

[GTracer98]

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/rallycross-part-2-series-18-episode-7
What amazed me is none of them complained about fair play, except hamster at the end but that was for the show.


The red Saab still took place in the race afterward. He didn't got kicked out of LA.
And it was in real life.

I understand how to have fun and play fair but it is impossible to have rules and etiquette for every situations. Heck, I drive in game like I paid the car in real life but how many times i've lost cause i didn't want to be portrayed like Schumi. Trying to follow GTP rules clearly didn't made me a better online virtual racecar driver.

Here is the situation OP is describing.
To me, its almost reckless driving, diving on the inside, touching, pushing the envelope.


What about this ?



Clearly against GTP rules around 2:00 mark yet one of the most memorable moment in F1 history.

Its pretty much easy to figure out who is racing dirty but in the heat of the moment its much harder to see who's having bad intentions, who's having the skills, who should be penalised. You gotta considered tons of factors. I got two friends in my FL who quited GT 5 cause of the severity of online rules I was racing in. They didn't have bad intentions.

That Elise driver is racing like it's a videogame.
However, that battle-Villeneuve vs Arnoux is...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The red Saab still took place in the race afterward. He didn't got kicked out of LA.
And it was in real life.

That orange dark silver ( WRX ?? ) car driver is learning to drive without ABS or stunned by the incident .... nice long slide due to wheel lock ups. Andy Scott was pushing Pastrana rather vigorously to a wall, he played GT5 too much That is bad and dirty driving.

 

[machinist1976]

Ummm, this is why I have not raced online yet and probably never will.

I spent 20+ years racing R/C touring, road, oval, and off-road where "dirty" racing caused real damage and cost real money. Not big money ($3.00 to $300.00) but it sucked none the less. I have seen guys get in fist fights over a broken A-arm or a crack in a $20.00 lexan body. Also, guys have stomped on others R/C's after a race because of a dirty pass or a bump and run.

I walked away from that seen because full grown men could not understand we were playing with toys...expensive toys, but toys none the less. If guys want to take a video game seriously to an extreme, great. But remember this, at the end of the day it is a "toy" we play with to blow off steam.

Thanks for reading and I am off to blow off steam in some Seasonal Events

 

[Ryk]

You can be forceful but you can also be clean. I've seen some drivers who drive way beyond their skillset; And cause avoidable crashes. And most crashes are avoidable.

If you can get a group of drivers to race regularly then you tend to weed out the "Yellow helmet hotlapper" types. And racing with clean drivers rewards itself. It only takes one "gifted racer" to destroy a race event.

The sad part is when a fast driver resorts to these - low tactics - to make a pass, win a race, take the title.

It is also important that every driver on the grid is racing to the same set of rules. So long as every racer is driving to it then it is fine. When you get one driver playing by his own rules you get trouble.

Arnoux vs Villenueve - Odd as it looks like a recipe for disaster, Both drivers driving to the limit, stepping over it, pulling faces at the Grim Reaper, stepping back gathering it up and then playing again. From the outside they are naughty boys in for trouble, but I bet they had a blast and after the race wished they could have kept going for a few more laps. - They were both playing by rules they accepted. Wheel to wheel. No quarter given, none asked. I've watched that clip dozens of times and I still expect Rene to come out on top!

 

[Drevenger]

That orange dark silver ( WRX ?? ) car driver is learning to drive without ABS or stunned by the incident .... nice long slide due to wheel lock ups. Andy Scott was pushing Pastrana rather vigorously to a wall, he played GT5 too much That is bad and dirty driving.

You know what I find funny is, when you get a pack of cars racing and the leader is coming too fast in the corner you often see the whole pack going too fast as well too in the same motion flow without bumping each other. First turn of trial mountain or Cape ring periphery come to mind.

Sorry for being off topic but Cant wait for Bathurst.

@ Ryk
Well said,
Knowing the folks against who you are racing with is soo helpful.
Knowledge on the cars helps too, Yellowbird @ Sarte, theres no point going all around the track bumping everyone driftin in the corners when you gonna eat everyone in the straight sections.
For those having hard time finding clean room I suggest clean shuffle with no boost.
Its pretty much always the same folks who run these so you get to know each other and theres not 800 choice of cars to race with.

 

[FuelAirSpark]

Another 'what is racing' thread. It's like debating religion or politics. We belive what we belive, and if you don't think like me, what's wrong with you ? I try to make no contact, even in Arcade mode. I agree with the Moderators and the other 'no contact' guys. I think you are a more skilled driver if you avoid contact, even if it means not winning. The OP says: " You know, slight taps and then taking the passing opportunity". Kind of sums it up, doesn't it?

 

[Aragam]

That Elise driver is a dead set gun and deserves to win with driving like that! get him in a Redbull!

 

[Shoe67]

That Elise driver is a dead set gun and deserves to win with driving like that! get him in a Redbull!

I agree. That was amazing driving. Nothing wrong with that driving! So amazing

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's the thing, I don't bump other racers on purpose. The reason I said I race semi-aggressively is because I stay close behind someone until the chance to pass presents it's self. When you have about 2-4 inches between you and the next guy, a bump or tap is inevitable.

If you are purposely staying 2-4 inches off their bumper you are bumping them on purpose. It's only inevitable because you choose to stay that close to them even though you realize it will result in contact.

There's a big difference between racing dirty and driving aggressively. Racing dirty would be to flat out wreck somebody, spin them out, or ram them into the grass. Giving another driver some bumps and taps to move them out of the way is aggressive driving.
Aggressive driving is alright in my book. Driving dirty isn't.

The only drivers who think it's ok to give "bumps and taps" to get by someone, are those who don't have the skill and racecraft to make a clean pass.

Bump happens all the times in every racing league.
Almost any.Kart leagues in real life would be tagged very dirty based on GTP OLR
You gotta be careful not to be more catholic than the pope.

Baloney. I raced karts for years and never purposely touched another kart nor ever benefited from making contact with another kart.

It's the prevailing attitude in this thread that it's ok to run into people to make a pass, which also prevails online in open lobbies, that ruined open lobby racing.

 

[thelvynau]

If you are purposely staying 2-4 inches off their bumper you are bumping them on purpose. It's only inevitable because you choose to stay that close to them even though you realize it will result in contact.

The only drivers who think it's ok to give "bumps and taps" to get by someone, are those who don't have the skill and racecraft to make a clean pass.

Baloney. I raced karts for years and never purposely touched another kart nor ever benefited from making contact with another kart.

It's the prevailing attitude in this thread that it's ok to run into people to make a pass, which also prevails online in open lobbies, that ruined open lobby racing.

Im not sure of the rulrs of nascar but isnt there contact in that sport?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Kazuki Nakajima in Toyota TS030 Proto trying to make a pass aggressively without even looking his surroundings, this is the kind of incident that often happen in GT5 online races, hot for the lead drivers with lack of attentiveness when passing other cars.



The Delta Wing drivers would be very pissed and distraught to see their ride broke down without any chance to get into the pit ...



Poor Satoshi Motoyama, he gave way to faster cars by staying on the right side, allowing them to pass cleanly ... but a bad judgment by Nakajima to make a rather aggressive passing move ended Nissan's dream to bring Delta Wing to the finish line.

If this happens to those who likes to drive aggressively, they would understand how it felt to be punted off and retired.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

If someone crashes past me and tears off my imaginary, but unfunctional side view mirror, more than likely I will get a little roadrage and chase them down and crash them.

Racing is all about respect. If they pass me cleanly that shows that they respect me and I will respect them if I get the opportunity to pass them. If they show me no respect…

Btw: click on my signature and vote for side view mirrors!

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

If someone crashes past me and tears off my imaginary, but unfunctional side view mirror, more than likely I will get a little roadrage and chase them down and crash them.

Racing is all about respect. If they pass me cleanly that shows that they respect me and I will respect them if I get the opportunity to pass them. If they show me no respect…

Btw: click on my signature and vote for side view mirrors!

For me you're the worst kind of drivers. I mean the guy behind you that does a small bumping on your car because they missed the braking a bit and hit you didnt do anything on purpose, however you're delibarating taking him off on the next corner which is the worst. I think if you're clean then stay clean, show them that you are better and can pass without hitting a car.

 

[Samus]

If someone crashes past me and tears off my imaginary, but unfunctional side view mirror, more than likely I will get a little roadrage and chase them down and crash them.

Racing is all about respect. If they pass me cleanly that shows that they respect me and I will respect them if I get the opportunity to pass them. If they show me no respect…

Btw: click on my signature and vote for side view mirrors!

Yeah that's not a good way to race at all dude. Or a good approach to anything in life, really.

 

[dxm8975]

It's okay to race agressively within the limit of regulations tacitly approved in the races among with other players in the race, because the attitude of the driver toward a race itself doesn't break the rules that only regulate violations usually applied to more basic manners for a mature driver - not to interfere other drivers or not to be unfair to your opponents in some aspects in any time.

However, if you become too much agressive in the race to lose sight of such fundamental manners in a single race and end up disturbing other participants somehow, then your behaviors are not welcomed to them and the entire lobby too.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

For me you're the worst kind of drivers. I mean the guy behind you that does a small bumping on your car because they missed the braking a bit and hit you didnt do anything on purpose, however you're delibarating taking him off on the next corner which is the worst. I think if you're clean then stay clean, show them that you are better and can pass without hitting a car.

Yeah that's not a good way to race at all dude. Or a good approach to anything in life, really.

I am not saying I would take someone out for accidentally banging into me. But I expect them to be hard on their brakes when they do.

If someone feels me bump into them unexpectedly, and they look in their rear view mirror, they will see me shrinking away – as I will be hard on the brakes. I do not crash past people. And hitting someone is something I avoid at all cost.

But - being human – I can (and often do) become angry if someone crashes past me on purpose. Then may your god help you.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

This kind of discussion will never get an end. Because it is very relative, many things can change the scenario.

 

[Highlandor]

No need for arguements here, pretty simple rule(s)...

Your lobby - YOU make the rules, someone else's, avoid contact at all times for the first 3-5 races then maybe push it up a level in aggression.

Most importantly - not sure - ASK THE HOST or just keep it clean.

Everyone has to remember, what is "clean racing" is subjective.

What might be "dirty" to one guy is a racing incident to another, which is why you must always either avoid contact at all costs or communicate with the host..

I went into a Japanese lobby last week (GT500 @ Suzuka, 10 laps), 15 JP guys and me, fully expecting to get kicked before the first race started.

Firstly, I asked if it was 'ok' to race with them - (everything was in Japanese, even room title and all text chat, so didn't know what the expectation was). I got a simple "ok" from some guy, so jumped in.

First race I ended up behind the host, so just held back, 2-3 cars lengths and 'followed' him for 6 laps, even though my tyres were much better at race end.

2nd race, same thing, "followed" 3rd place guy most of the race, held back, didn't do anything stoopid or make contact with anyone.

3rd race, battled with leader for 8 laps, no conact from either of us, we overtook each other twice (again, no contact).

After thatt, they started texting me, ended p staying there for nearly 3 hrs, and made some new friends aswell as having alot of good races.

I could've gone quicker in the first 2 races, pulled a few moves on track, but didn't, just kept it 100% clean, even if it meant loosing places or going alot slower.

The whole 3 hrs, I was the only non JP guy in there, other came in, but ahem cough cough, mysteriously dissappeared (!!), blatantly they were getting kicked.

Even if you don't speak the host language, you can let your driving do the talking instead.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

It is what i said before, respect and common sense. Lol

Edit: Win is good? Yes, but have a fair clean race, even if you lose, is even better.

 

[I Am Yellow]

I try to be as clean as possible, but sometimes I have to push to the limits or even fight fire with fire.

Yesterday I was on a "clean" shuffle room, racing on Trial Mountain, then two guys I tried to overtake (in different times) just ram me into the wall. After that all three of us kept battling, I stayed clean the whole time. When I fell to last of the three I just waited until they nearly crashed themselves and I took a better line to overtake them. In the last lap, one started pressuring and bumping me, ending on a dirty rant including me swerving in front of the guy blocking him and we both cutting the last chicane.

I liked that battle though.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I race semi-aggressively ... slight taps here and then taking a passing opportunity as soon as the slightest window opens...my semi-aggressiveness gets me into trouble in clean racing rooms, ...I get threatened by hosts occasionally. Is there anyone else out there that deals with that?

From the first post.

 

[Samus]

I am not saying I would take someone out for accidentally banging into me. But I expect them to be hard on their brakes when they do.

If someone feels me bump into them unexpectedly, and they look in their rear view mirror, they will see me shrinking away – as I will be hard on the brakes. I do not crash past people. And hitting someone is something I avoid at all cost.

But - being human – I can (and often do) become angry if someone crashes past me on purpose. Then may your god help you.

So if someone bumps into you in the street walking and don't apologise do you run after them and give them a bump in retaliation? I doubt it and that was my point, retaliating and/or resorting to their tactics makes you no better than they are. The smart thing to do is come back and beat them fair and square, that makes you feel good and they feel stupid. Ramming them off the track because they rammed you off the track just drags you to their level, as I said.

 

[dsgerbc]

I wish there was a way to build a list off all those PSN IDs that are okay with bumping-passing and import that into GT5, so that I know when they are driving around me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Im not sure of the rulrs of nascar but isnt there contact in that sport?

I don't hold Nascar up as "standard" for racing etiquette and other than Daytona I don't watch it. Every race is the same. Start, wreck, bunch up, start, wreck, bunch up, start, wreck, bunch up, start, sprint to finish (and maybe a wreck in there too). I would guess that in the rulebook bump passing is not allowed but it's hard to prove and like many sports, Nascar over the years has sacrificed integrity for popularity.

That's a great idea DSG...or even better would be some kind of driver rating system so you could just set a minimum standard to get into a given race lobby and automatically weed out anyone that would begin a post in here like this:

"I'm a clean driver but (paraphrasing) here's a list of all the circumstances in which I run people off the track because I have absolutely no self control unless everyone else in the race is perfect..."...

I wonder how much trouble we (I) would get into if I built up a reference database thread that listed all the drivers who have ever posted in a thread like this who were on one of these two sides:

1 Integrity before victory

2. Justifying contact as a means of passing/winning races.

 

[Editor GEAR]

So as seeing that this post is becoming a hotbed. I'll say this

-The reason I made this thread was to hear others' experiences not cause a debate as to what is racing and what is not.

I just made this post to hear what you guys go through with a situation like this and how you handle it, not have a presidential debate on the ethics of racing.

 

[Shoe67]

In my experience, I will use my bumper. And I am fine when others use their bumpers. There is a reason cars have bumpers. It is when you send them off track, or spin them that an issue arises.