Yamauchi at DICE 2011: Gran Turismo to invoke mimesis creating Existance

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BWX
I think now that Kaz is what's wrong with GT5 and GT6 would probably be better off if someone else was in charge. I'm grateful to Kaz for giving me GT1, GT2, GT3, and GT4. I'm disappointed in Kaz for bringing me GT5 with b-spec and taking OUT all of the things that GT4 had that GT5 doesn't.
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Couldn't agree more. It seems to me that Kaz's vision is becoming increasingly fragmented as he desperately tries to recapture the quantum leap that GT1 was and, in doing so, seems to have completely lost direction.

Someone needs to tell him Gran Turismo is enough. Fans of the series, hell, fans of driving games in general just want to drive and race with graphics and physics that push the limits of whatever the current technology is capable.

Flying off on weird tangents that nobody other than Kaz is remotely interested in is doing more harm than good. If I want an RPG I'll buy the new elder scrolls when it comes out. I bought GT5 because I wanted to do exactly the same thing I've been doing since GT1, with the addition of online which, considering how well established online gaming is now in the world, Kaz has completely messed up by, once again, focussing on all these weird tangential notions and ignoring the bread and butter standards.
 
BWX
I think now that Kaz is what's wrong with GT5 and GT6 would probably be better off if someone else was in charge. I'm grateful to Kaz for giving me GT1, GT2, GT3, and GT4. I'm disappointed in Kaz for bringing me GT5 with b-spec and taking OUT all of the things that GT4 had that GT5 doesn't.

I have thought for a while that Kaz was loosing his touch. GTPSP did not cause me to go out and buy a PSP like all the other GTs caused me to buy the consoles they ran on. The GT that comes out for the PS4, by how Kaz is talking will not cause me to go out and buy a PS4.

This latest Kaz speech has just solidified what I've been thinking lately, Kaz needs to get out of the way and let GT be GT again, not this insane RPG/car game/stamp collecting/ b-spec grinding vision Kaz has for future GTs.

It's sad to see Gran Turismo be ruined by it's creator. I guess I am learning about life and death. The death of Gran Turismo at the hands of it's creator. Very sad indeed.
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JediRage
So he said this yesterday eh? Well that's approximately just over two months since GT5's release and if he still hasn't learnt from his mistakes, I've heard all that's necessary.

By making philosophical observations and lumping them with games including Gran Turismo he is just asking for abuse how muchever the OP tries to set the ground rules. I think he said something along the lines of "GT5 is 40% of my vision". Well now I'm truly terrified of his '100% vision'.
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It's not his vision that is so much at fault. If his full vision could be realised then that would be some game. The greatest ever created probably. However, his full vision can't be realised either because it's not technologically possible or PD don't have good enough people to implement it. The problem PD seem to have is taking the bits of his vision that are achievable and implementing them into a rock solid product.
 
amar212
For last 13 years and first Gran Turismo game I really expected that any other developer dive into realms of original, unique and different. Nobody did.
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Testdrive Unlimited comes to mind as being original. The whole blending of offline and online play into one seamless experience and the fact that it recreated a whole real-life island is something that I have never seen any developer do before that time. But you're not wrong either, it's about the only example I can come up with (maybe Trackmania too).

I do appreciate Kaz's visions of the future, though only the future can tell if he's a genius or insane. ;) But as with all visions, it's a utopia, something you work towards, but do not achieve in one go. To capitalize on those visions (e.g. make money and keep people interested), you need to cut it up into smaller, more realistic bits. They bit off more they could chew with GT5.

But it's interesting to see where Kaz's vision goes, some of the things in GT5 I was really wondering 'what on earth were they thinking?' fall into place now. I really hope he can realize his vision. 👍
 
To many people in this forum have criticized GT5 for not being the game they wanted.

It's obvious that Gran Turismo is Yamauchi's personal vision, and it's evident that some of you come to terms with that.
 
I'm glad Kaz has a vision of some monumental moment of gaming euphoria, everyone needs or should have a dream or a goal in their life, it's what makes most of us get up in the morning. It reminds me of an old joke about a stranger asking a not so sharp fellow for directions to the post office on the other side of town. After much confusion and restarting the instructions several times over, the dim fellow finally gives up and says to the stranger, "you just can't get to the post office from here". Between what Kaz wants, the PS3 technology capabilities and what most of "us" want, there is a major disconnect. Example the seasonal events that came out yesterday, I had to close my dropped jaw and ask myself, is this it? Is this what we waited for, for two weeks? The car expenditure versus reward and XP is absurd, somebody ain't getting' it folks. Heck, there are probably a cadre of guys at PD that know how to make this game much better but will never be allowed to do so. From what I read Kaz is both the Owner, General Manager and Coach of this team and is just too dang close to the project to allow what this game COULD be.

As far as Life and Death lessons concerned, I just hope I don't have a heart attack or stroke watching that pulsating GT logo waiting for a race to load...

My .02
 
P3nT4gR4m
Someone needs to tell him Gran Turismo is enough. Fans of the series, hell, fans of driving games in general just want to drive and race with graphics and physics that push the limits of whatever the current technology is capable.

Flying off on weird tangents that nobody other than Kaz is remotely interested in is doing more harm than good.
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I am not 100% sure of this. If you look at how NFS:S and FM are developing and what direction they've chosen to develop into, I can see the space that GT always used to occupy become a crowded space full of commodity racers with great physics and great graphics and lots of great cars. GT will not be able to stand out there (I've mentioned the concept of Red Oceans vs. Blue Oceans in an earlier post).

Maybe in order to survive and remain innovative GT needs to reinvent itself even more. I feel GT5 has tried to do that, but failed to take the right order of steps resulting in the disjointed mess it seems at first glance right now.

If anyone can take GT into a new direction it's Kaz, but he needs to let go of the GT we all know and love.

Perhaps there have to be two distinct directions for the GT :
- GT Life, which could fit Kaz' vision of what a Driving Life Sim could be
- GT Online, for the kids who just want to drag race online with their Veyrons

:sly:

Edited for spelling.
 
It's pretty easy to interpret Kaz's sentiments that there's more to life than video games, that's basically all he's saying, and it's a matter of being able to see the big picture and put a game like GT5 in that context.

Yes, it would probably help if he had a little more tunnel vision specific to GT5's mechanics in terms of gameplay, but you can't fault the man for injecting his ideas into the game, good or bad i.e. you can't cherry pick what you like about him - it's all or nothing.

What I'm really hoping for is that technology catches up to Kaz's ultimate vision at some point, because it's clear that it hasn't quite yet.
 
If he goes for this, I'd rather he keep it out of GT, or at least make it so that I can ignore it. Moving on to the details before the foundation is right doesn't make any sense.

I was under the impression that it was a driving sim. If it's not, just say so.

Trying to be unique for the sake of being unique is pointless. A Good game is better than a unique game.

It's obvious that Gran Turismo is Yamauchi's personal vision
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And he depends on us for sales to fuel his vision. I don't care if he spends some time to make GT5 Kaz edition disk for his personal use. In fact, wouldn't be great if everyone could just tweak the game to their own liking?
 
Well I love the idea of building video-games around this philosophy (essentially the rules of nature), but once again I can't help but notice what's inside Kaz' mind is completely removed from the actual game he makes.

A Mimesian(?) game would look completely different to GT5: It would act like a mini universe, with it's own rules and constants, within which anything is possible. It would probably have simple graphics and no detail that wasn't necessary to the actual game environment (e.g. pretend spectators with scripted movements). This might allow for things like real fluid dynamics to be simulated, based on the actual 3D models. The physics would be consistent and totally transparent and accessible (right now, even damper settings are still a mystery to veteran tuners, and descriptions of many parts are ambiguous and refer to the real world, not the game environment). A dynamic, vertex damage model, which Carmageddon <3 managed in the 90's.

It would offer great freedom to modify cars and create tracks, leagues, groups. When you open the game up like this, you create infinite variables for gameplay and creation = imitation of nature - Mimesis. Function would define form, as in nature.

GT is the exact OPPOSITE! :lol: It's pretty on the surface with a lot of pretend details, and totally fixed and restrictive beyond what PD themselves have thought of.
 
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UN_OC
- A game that allows you to think about death? I thought about that too while grnding B-spec.

- He wants 'gamers' to think about the point of life... I repeat.. 'gamers'.....
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Hillarious, honest, valid.

But, gamers need to get outside to experience life. If you could take the time to get to lvl 40, complete the licenses, challenges, collect all cars, basically go platinum right? That must be equivelent to 3-6 months of full-time gaming (minus dorito and mountain dew breaks) That will not benefit anyone. Pause the game press save, go outside, that would be more helpful to humanity right now than gloomy death thoughts.
 
his vision is a bold one and after reading it, i think in the mid 90's i might have been on some of the drugs he is on lmao jk, but there is alot of what has been said that i agree with, having a creative director also be the lead dev isnt always a good move, creative minds alot of times needs to be smacked in the head and be told focus, but still keeping the bold ideas in mind, 99% of the time creativity needs focus and some one to help make the dream come to light.

yea a lot can be said about what is broken with gt5 and what was left out, but the question could be asked how do you kno it was left out? imo the game was rushed out for the holidays by sony and pd, and alot of those features that are missing could have been planned but dropped to get it out but are still planned for future patches

kaz is truly an odd duck, but has bold ideas and i for one hope a lot of his vision comes to light and am looking forward to seeing how with patches gt5 evolves and what gt6 will bring

and im not surprised that gt5 may or may noy be what kaz hoped it could be, because it all boils down to, money. creativity and vision will always take a back to greed for the most part but i'm not saying kaz is greedy
 
To me it sounds like the same philosophical spiel hes been touting for some time now,
It would lead me to believe that the GT he would create is far removed from the GT we would have him create,
I'm not against his view on things necessarily, its just it doesn't bode well for future iterations of GT for anyone(+ me) who wants a race sim that can compete with the likes of GTR and iRacing or have the flair of NFS: S or even Forza(with customization) instead of being stuck in a kind of no man's land,

I'm struggling to think how he could turn GT into his vision when his vision looks barely implantable, even less so when its a game about racing/driving cars,

The end of GT as we knew/love(d) ????:nervous:
 
p-coletray
Hillarious, honest, valid.

But, gamers need to get outside to experience life. If you could take the time to get to lvl 40, complete the licenses, challenges, collect all cars, basically go platinum right? That must be equivelent to 3-6 months of full-time gaming (minus dorito and mountain dew breaks) That will not benefit anyone. Pause the game press save, go outside, that would be more helpful to humanity right now than gloomy death thoughts.
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Kaz will be doing that.. getting gamers to experience real life by making the next GT shorter, more frutrating, and having fewer races than GT5.

Everyone will quit playing (and buying) Gran Turismo because it will suck. Then everyone can go on with their lives without those pesky awesome video games to distract them from real life.

Great marketing.. it just might work.
 
xSNAKEx
I have absollutely no idea what is going on....

What?
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Same here. I tried reading this and started nodding off. Sounds like the article is saying everything but what GT fans want to hear. Beating around the bush is what it sounds like.
 
Interesting post Amar. I feel that artists tend to do their best work when they are unknown and are driven by an idea. Programmers, Musicians, Movie Directors, etc. Kaz really created something special with GT1. The problem is once they make that impact they generally never do it again. GT has evolved but it is on the other side of the curve now. I think we see evidence of that with GT5.
Now Kaz is doing what a lot of successful artists tend to do, they talk about abstractions and how amazing they could be. How their work has created a new paradigm. I love GT5 but the genre is moving on, hopefully PD can remain relevant.
 
As much as I hate to say it, it seems KY and PD have the same sickness as Greenawalt and T10 have. In that they don't get it that these games have to be about racing first. Both these games now seem to be more about KY and DG's visions rather than producing the best racing title possible for the customer. I read some quote from DG not too long ago where he was waxing poetic about his desire to take Forza from a racing game to a "experience" game, whatever that means. It sounds like the same thing is KY is wanting to do.

What they both don't seem to get, is without the racing, noone is going to be around to see any of their goofy visions.

And KY's goal is to make players want to think about death? WTF is that? Yea, that's a good way to sell racing games. In fact, he's already made a game that makes me think about death...everytime I load up Bspec. ;)
 
B-Spec makes me think about murder or suicide more than just death in general.. but Kaz's vision does seem to be working.

EDIT- LOL, I posted same time as above post.. must be I'm not alone.
 
Thanks for posting this Amar 👍

Kaz has some interesting ideas, but I don't think even he knows exactly what he wants to do. I like the idea of creating something like that, but it would have to be incredibly immersive for it to work, it can't be distracting in anyway, have no other purpose and be quite different to current games.

It does sound like heavy rain though, at least they had similar goals.
 
Wow. What can I say after reading that article. How can he or anyone think he can even remotely achieve this ridiculous vision when he and PD can't even get shadows to work properly?

A bit of an over simplification but they don't have a console system nor the technology to accomplish properly working shadows, 16 car grid all premium models, AI that can pass slower cars :) etc. I really wish he would concentrate on fixing his current broken dream before solving the meaning of life and death.
 
It's like an orient movie where Jacky Chan comes to West for the very first time.Hard to tell how to react and feel about whats going on.I,as a western 'driver',want a 'real driving simulator'(all driving on race tracks) to be a old school racing against other players.Like someone told here before,if something else let us know before bying it?After reading that mention about dealing with death in a car game,I know this cant go right when thinking about that final GT(Life),starting from this steering wheel episode.All this education for console gamers?Soon Shift2,hope that works.-East meets West

edit. I think they(PD) are not truly 'race car drivers' in their harts.Just like KY said when taking part in that Nürb 24h race,'this can be dangerous'.Sure he was excited but at the sametime guestioning him self,im I in the right place?Better place would be that 'Cable Car Cafe' outside my office?:)Atleast in GT5.Yeah,they like beautiful objects,like old cars and those beautiful sceneries in the game,but true race car drivers,I think not.Thats why KY need to make his 'visionary' fillings to a racing game.Which its not.
 
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I'm sorry to say this and I mean no disrespect to the man himself. But, that's a complete and utter load of bull****. These words portray someone with delusions of grandeur, total disconnect with the product, total disconnect with what consumers want or simply trying to pull wool over. Take your pick [1].

This so-called simulation of nature that is in the game is an utterly simplistic model with few variables for abilities, weight factors for them as personal traits and a "mental condition" (hot/cold) [2]. AI researchers have been working on decades on this stuff and there are much more complex models out there (e.g. multi-agent systems).

Trying to shoehorn this to GT hasn't really improved the game in any meaningful way. Much better results could have been obtained by simply adding an adaptive racing line for the AI so that they can overtake a slower car rather than just bumping in to it and backing down.

Sorry. I'm not buying the philosopher bit.

[1] Yes, he has done an amazing job in getting the feel of driving a car (physics) and the graphics. As a consumer, I'm grateful for that and happy to pay $60. But it has so many weaknesses in terms of game design and UI design.
[2] My educated guess based on game play. I've been working in this area for about 15 years.
 
is it just me, or Kaz is starting to sound like less of a game developer and more of a philosopher. I really think it is time to pass on the torch of GT.
 
Kaz needs to seriously quit smoking what he's smoking!!!!
I personally don't think this is a vision that has grown from making GT1, this is the vision of a man that has been given to much limelight and praise.
Kaz needs reined in and brought back down to earth and hopefully the gran turismo's fall from grace will do that.
After reading that total and utter garbage he spouted, I can't help but feel that sony needs to dump this guy and give the series to someone that could bring it back to greatness.
It seems all of those interviews with GQ magazine have grown Kaz's head beyond the weight his body ca support.
 
I think GT will have trouble meeting his vision because it portrays something many of us know how to do to varying levels. So when we start out racing in the first A-Spec races most of us have skills far beyond the Level 0 that we are starting at so we feel like that AI is horrible and unchallenging. If it were a game where the skills were completely foreign I think level balancing might be easier.

I can think of ways a game like GT could incorporate some of his larger vision. Say for instance the AI drivers are from a set pool. And your initial license tests set their starting point. So that when you start in A-spec lower levels the competition is matched to you. From that point if you are using a constant set they would learn at the same pace as you so as you improve they improve.

From that you can start to add variables where certain AI drivers get better faster others fail and new ones are added. Online adds other elements. If the AI are using your gameplay to improve then using your skill level to find other AI racers from other players who are similar in level but maybe drive differently would allow for cross pollination. I think if the AI drivers are a set pool then you begin to know them and adapt to their styles.

I think right now the thoughts behind that are all beyond current hardware but I see no reason that type of system can't be developed.

I can see the same in B-Spec in a future form. I can picture a game where you teach your b-spec driver if you have a way you approach a race it would need to fit with the personality of the B-Spec driver (which of course would be expanded from current) But then once trained they could live in a persistent virtual world where they race if your there or not. Improving and learning as they race against other people's B-Spec drivers. In truth it would become very much like managing a race team. You would need young drivers in beginner series who were being groomed to replace older drivers in more advanced series as they age. I think taking some queues from The Sims there could be deaths of your drivers who you had managed for months you would have to deal with the loss and figure out how to replace them.

So that is my very long winded way of saying I can see his vision and understand how games developed in that way could be very interesting and how an auto game can become an RPG very easily. GT5 isn't there yet but who knows what the future brings.
 

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