Yamauchi at DICE 2011: Gran Turismo to invoke mimesis creating Existance

[CodeRedR51]

I'm pleased that there are game designers like Kaz. He may frustrate the hell out of some of you and leave you scratching your heads, but it's also people like him that you'll be thanking in 5 years time when you're playing a game that is better than anything that you ever imagined.

Agreed 100%.

Many here seem to forget that without this man's "vision", we wouldn't be here today.

 

[Spagetti69]

Wow he is starting to be an embarrassment.

"Dad ( Kaz ) I dont want you to pick me up from school, I enjoy the 10mile walk"

 

[BWX]

I like the Ai idea in grumblecat's post above.. but seriously, Kaz and PD can't manage to create even the simplest Ai correctly. I think the Ai in GT5 is better than a lot of people give it credit for, but it still extremely basic and does stupid things way too much. I really don't think Kas and PD would ever try to do something that made so much sense anyway.. maybe 10 years ago, but not now. They're off on some delusional tangent now, trying all these crazy things when they can't even manage to get the basics right (Ai / b-spec). Oh well. There hopefully will be other sims and racing games to fill the void if Kaz goes through with his delusional vision and wrecks the Gran Turismo series. Time will tell.

 

[machschnel]

Someone get word to Kaz - Racing games aren't that complicated. Coding competitive AI and a realistic physics model is as "complicated" as the racing genre gets. If he wasn't such an arrogant, stubborn ass, maybe he'd play something like iRacing or GTR and realize how "simple" racing can be. You don't need B Spec or Photo Mode or any of the other gimmicky features which have nothing to do with racing.

Kaz has lost it. His "vision" is nothing more than a convoluted mess.

 

[Luminis]

* He wants to show people the leading edge of technology.
* He wants to share something beautiful and “cool”.
* He wants people to simply enjoy playing his games.

Leading edge of technology. And we have standard cars.
Something beautiful? Partially, yes. Cool? Cheesy, most of the time.
People simply enjoing the game? GT5 is as far away from that as a racing game can be, aside from maybe iRacing and the like.

His vision made a fine game so far, but I think it's keeping him from obtaining these goals. If GT shapes up to become closer and closer to... Well, that vision, I'll probably have to turn away from it, as it just isn't my vision of a good racing game.

I don't care about philosophising in a racing game. I want to go out on the track.
I don't want to reflect my life when playing a racing game. I want to focus on the race at hand.
I don't want to think about death. That's why I'm playing a game instead of racing in real life.

It's cool that he has a vision and it's cool that he's trying to make it come true and whatnot, but it's so far away from what I would consider a good racing game that I can't see GT becoming any better if it gets closer to that. Just my opinion.

Kaz's vision =!= my vision. So, no more GT for me?
Well, all the "don't like the game? Go away!" sentiments might come true after all. A shame.

 

[GTOne2Three]

Is Kaz the george lucas of racing games?

 

[calan_svc]

Is Kaz the george lucas of racing games?

Of course not. Star Wars kept pushing new boundaries and got better with each new episode.

 

[Tvensky]

Someone get word to Kaz - Racing games aren't that complicated. Coding competitive AI and a realistic physics model is as "complicated" as the racing genre gets. If he wasn't such an arrogant, stubborn ass, maybe he'd play something like iRacing or GTR and realize how "simple" racing can be. You don't need B Spec or Photo Mode or any of the other gimmicky features which have nothing to do with racing.

Kaz has lost it. His "vision" is nothing more than a convoluted mess.

sorry mate, you so wrong.. Things like photo mode and museum etc. is the stuff that gets me inspired and love this racing genre even more! GTs has allways been about loving cars! and I love to not just drive them but sometimes I can just look at them for hours without driving! Its pure art! Cars and GT! but I understand your point! Racing game have to be racing game with pure full driving. But those features just makes alot of people happy.

Of course not. Star Wars kept pushing new boundaries and got better with each new episode.

from the point where Im sitting, they do

 

[calan_svc]

sorry mate, you so wrong.. Things like photo mode and museum etc. is the stuff that gets me inspired and love this racing genre even more! GTs has allways been about loving cars! and I love to not just drive them but sometimes I can just look at them for hours without driving! Its pure art!

They have libraries for that. Most of us like to actually....wait for it.... RACE the race cars.

Maybe PD should just rename GT5 to "The real car collector game", since you can't do much else with it.

 

[ESCUDO 1800hp]

Kaz should have retired right after GT4.

 

[zr1chris]

See this is the whole problem for me. KY has this epic vision of what he want's to create. It's a fusion of all sorts of different ideas based around a computer racing game. The problem is it just doesn't work. Technologically it's not possible or he is incapable of getting his vision to work. And what has resulted with GT5 is a bit of a mess. I really wish he and they had just concentrated on making the greatest racing game of all time.

I think it's fantastic that he has dreams and a vision of the utopia he wants to create but when those dreams and that vision gets in the way of the product then I can't help think he's doing all of this for his own needs rather than the needs of the paying customers. What percentage of the paying customers who bought GT5 are interested in, “It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,”. It just seems that he has so many thoughts and ideas in his head that he struggles to bring them together into a coherent, focussed direction. After reading what he said in this speech I fully understand why GT5 turned out like it did. Should have just concentrated on making a kick ass racing game KY.

Great Post. Although i do enjoy GT5 very much and hope Kaz keeps at it any way he chooses

 

[Luminis]

Maybe PD should just rename GT5 to "The real car collector game", since you can't do much else with it.

"Gran Turismo 6: The Real Kazunori Simulator.

Be like the man himself, read the hottest info on your favourite rides in the online museum! Wash and wax your beloved car! Collect dozens upon dozens of kei cars! Now with fully rendered 'Walking the Garage' mode!

Oh, and there's some racing, too, somewhere!"

Sounds... great?

 

[machschnel]

sorry mate, you so wrong.. Things like photo mode and museum etc. is the stuff that gets me inspired and love this racing genre even more! GTs has allways been about loving cars! and I love to not just drive them but sometimes I can just look at them for hours without driving! Its pure art! Cars and GT! but I understand your point! Racing game have to be racing game with pure full driving. But those features just makes alot of people happy.

Nothing wrong with your opinion, in fact I envy you. Being able to enjoy Gran Turismo 5 in all it's facets is something I just can't do.

But your opinion doesn't change the fact Photo Mode, Museum, B-Spec etc, don't belong in a racing game. I'm not saying GT5 shouldn't include these features, far from it. The inclusion of these features only furthers the claim that GT has nothing to do with racing, which isn't bad per se, it just means I'll be buying a different game from now on.

 

[BWX]

"Gran Turismo 6: The Real Kazunori Simulator.

Be like the man himself, read the hottest info on your favourite rides in the online museum! Wash and wax your beloved car! Collect dozens upon dozens of kei cars! Now with fully rendered 'Walking the Garage' mode!

Oh, and there's some racing, too, somewhere!"

Sounds... great?

No! Well, if the a-spec was good enough, and deep enough, and had enough races, he can do all that other stuff all he wants.

It's when all that other stuff wrecks the real part- the racing/driving part, that's when his "vision" destroys what GT is all about, or WAS all about when GT was great.

 

[tigermilk]

sorry mate, you so wrong.. Things like photo mode and museum etc. is the stuff that gets me inspired and love this racing genre even more! GTs has allways been about loving cars! and I love to not just drive them but sometimes I can just look at them for hours without driving! Its pure art! Cars and GT! but I understand your point! Racing game have to be racing game with pure full driving. But those features just makes alot of people happy.

I love beautiful cars too. Love the bodies and the engineering. Heck, on my first trip to Japan back in 2002 I went to an art museum in Tokyo that was having an exhibit on the art of Ferrari and Maserati. Actual cars (and a mockup of the Enzo) from the 50s and later, valves, engines, F1 cars, drawings, photos, logos, you name it. I even bought a Ferrari 308 GTB, and every time I see my car I think, "G@d d@mn that is one pretty car." But I tell you what. I get much more enjoyment driving my Ferrari, hearing the sounds and smelling the smells than I do looking at it.

 

[CeeJay]

Yikes... Someone remind Kaz he's making a video game & not writing a paper for his college Philosophy class. I appreciate games that go for the psychological stuff like Heavy Rain but in a GT game?? Really? This is just strange. It feels like we're going to come to a fork in the road where Kaz and PD are going to go off in some weird direction and leave the average racing sim fan in the dust. Honestly, I'm kind of at a loss here.

 

[stpatty]

I've finally realised why I disagree with this "vision."

While I agree with the people who're saying that it's good there are people like this in the games industry, what he is claiming to want to do isn't possible with the current technology. Nor, with the way things are going in the electronic entertainment industry, is it something I believe would interest enough people to make it financially viable, which would put a stop to it before it even started.

Another thing... I consider myself to be a pretty serious gamer. Admittedly, there are times when I wouldn't want to be as immersed in games as I am, but as someone who's spent 20+ days playing COD4/6 online, spent 3 solid months playing nothing but GT4 (and a lot of it), have finished 5+ seasons of Be a Pro in NHL 09 without simming a game (and that's about 100 games a season), spent countless hours playing FIFA games online, I don't really look to games as a reason to appreciate life and death or whatever it is Yamauchi wants to do. I have played many games which had such themes (someone mentioned Heavy Rain), but ultimately I, and I assume just about everyone, uses video games as a means to escape from reality, not be reminded of its futility at every opportunity.

Also, Gran Turismo is a car racing series. Get in car, drive faster than other cars. Rinse, repeat. No life, no death. Racing cars.

Ed - and as for "You become infected with this desire to experience and share something new."

I experienced that in GT3 (my first GT) and then GT4. I haven't with GT5.

 

[Luminis]

Well, I guess you could simply say:
"Kaz, don't overcomplicate GT!"

 

[tw99]

People buy too much in to the whole "speech to score more loot for my self and company"

He spent 5 years on snack bars and test driving exotic cars around Nurburgring with snack bar hostes in passanger seat.

Should have used some of that budget to add another 200 premium cars or even better create something original something new for the series. Karts and nascar... ummm ya thats original.

 

[Wall_Rider]

To many people in this forum have criticized GT5 for not being the game they wanted.

It's obvious that Gran Turismo is Yamauchi's personal vision, and it's evident that some of you come to terms with that.

With all due respect (no snark), perhaps Yamauchi would be better off making his own 'vision' for personal use, while giving the people what they want in a mass-produced commercialized game...

 

[alonsof1fan91]

I'm pleased that there are game designers like Kaz. He may frustrate the hell out of some of you and leave you scratching your heads, but it's also people like him that you'll be thanking in 5 years time when you're playing a game that is better than anything that you ever imagined.

Can`t aggree with you here. Gt1 changed everything, but its now 13-14 years in the past. I can`t see any great innovations in racing games since then. But honestly, you don´t need them. And it isn`t really possible to make huge jumps in gameplay with racing games.

I also don`t get this love for collection virtual cars and maintance for them.
Yes, it gives the game more dept, but we are talking about a racing game afterall.

The best thing you can achieve with a racing sim is...
Giving a great car roster with alot of variety (everyday cars, sport cars, those overhyped supercars and race cars from every era) but with no fluctuation of quality between certain car models, include great tracks with history, awesome engine/exhaust sounds, advanced physics which include tyre wear/fuel consumption/track surface/level of rubber on the asphalt/weather, a damage system and... thats it.


Its not like adventure/rpg genre which gives alot of freedome for innovations - also, some won`t like my opinion, I don`t think that Kaz or the PD team are game designers capable of such things. Ever played shadow of the collossus? Thats a game with a unique gameplay expierence. With just looking at the Last Guardian trailer or playing ICO/SotC I can see a huge difference between those devs with their love for small details and good studios like PD, Turn10 or Bioware.

 

[MowTin]

Yamauchi defined mimesis as “a certain reaction when you meet something incredible, find something new, and are infected with feverish desire to do something. What I want to do with Gran Turismo is invoke this mimesis on the audience of players.”

I'm confused. If that is his goal then where is the attempt at something new?

If he were really interested in doing something new and having players experience life and death then a GT Life where you create drivers who can die in races would have been cool.

Many years ago I used to love a PC game called Battle of Britain. In the game you created pilots which you used for every mission. As your gained kill count and medals and rank. But if you got shot down that pilot was dead.

You really felt it when your best pilot died

Again, if this was his vision then he should have gone for it and had persistent damage and driver death in GT5.

It would totally change the way you drive. Better to lose a race and live to drive another day then to take make some crazy overtaking attempt.

At least now I understand GT5. It's a JRPG racing game.

 

[afc2112]

Kaz must be on crack. They can't even get the AI right and he's talking about mimesis.

The race experience is severely lacking...Yes, it's been that way since GT1, but you would think it would improve.

It hasn't and until it does, I'm taking my money elsewhere.

 

[Killinator]

Judging by the reaction in this thread(my own earlier one included) the guys at EA will be standing in the door with arms open waiting to console us come March(metaphorically of course)
And judging by what I've seen of Shift 2 so far, I won't mind shelling out for it, its starting to look more like my vision of what GT should be aiming for then GT does.

 

[tw99]

Technology got better, yes it is a racing game and it's hard to be creative but yes there is some much room for improvement. Graphically, physically and online.

I am sure he is not the man to blame, getting all the legal work done with all the car brands included in the game that was probably 4 years of legal paper work and negotiations? And then 1 year on actual game development.

So by the time you done with all the legal stuff you have little or no creativity left in you.

 

[budious]

Frankly, I think Kaz has gone a bit George Lucas on us; he created something really great when nobody else was doing it out of limited resources... but now, he's crossed the threshold into making his vision as good as he originally intended it and forever changes the balance and formula that made GT work in the first place.

 

[Luminis]

So by the time you done with all the legal stuff you have little or no creativity left in you.

1) Why didn't that happen with previous GTs?
2) Why doesn't that happen to anyone besides PD?
3) Why not design the game while, you know, the lawyers take care of the legal stuff?
4) Why not work on all the cars PD already had a license for in the meantine?

 

[tw99]

1) Why didn't that happen with previous GTs?
2) Why doesn't that happen to anyone besides PD?
3) Why not design the game while, you know, the lawyers take care of the legal stuff?
4) Why not work on all the cars PD already had a license for in the meantine?

Simple answer? Because other games dont offer 1000 cars? And all the little marketing stickers that come with it.

Times change evrything is harder to get now and a lot more legal work to go through. We talking about a lot fo brand recognition here.

Lawyers and marketers and developers work together and guess what...developers get the short end of the stick. It is the lawyers and marketers who run the show.

How are you supose to put something in the game if you did not have any legal work done for that car? You wasting development time making things that are going get cut.

It is one reason they did not do all out dmg in game. Because companies dont want to show their brands all smashed up. Bad image and no safety friendly.

I am sure those who work in marketing brand and sales can tell you the same thing.

 

[Killinator]

Simple answer? Because other games dont offer 1000 cars? And all the little marketing stickers that come with it.

Times change evrything is harder to get now and a lot more legal work to go through. We talking about a lot fo brand recognition here.

Lawyers and marketers and developers work together and guess what...developers get the short end of the stick. It is the lawyers and marketers who run the show.

How are you supose to put something in the game if you did not have any legal work done for that car? You wasting development time making things that are going get cut.

It is one reason they did not do all out dmg in game. Because companies dont want to show their brands all smashed up. Bad image and no safety friendly.

I am sure those who work in marketing brand and sales can tell you the same thing.

We are getting a second NFS Shift in March 2011, the first was released in September 2009,
So just over a year and a half later we get another game from them, and they HAVE Porsche, Bathurst and Spa,
What about their licensing issues,
800 of the cars in GT were already in GT games and most are old anyway, the license issue would hardly be a big deal, definitely not a 4 year long delay!
I refuse to believe all these companies crack down harder on GT than any other developer,

The reason Kaz is coming out with as this spurious stuff is because so many people are prepared to say 'its not his fault, it couldn't be, this is Kaz we're talking about, I bet it was Sony, or lawyers, or Dan Greenwalt, or global warming, etc, etc....'

Reading his statements give a clearer indication of why the game is so inconsistent, the man( I respect him for his past works) doesn't appear to have any clear notion of what GT fans want, just what he wants!

 

[zqxwjv]

"When a form of art is undergoing development ..."

This seems to suggest a root cause for the dissatisfaction with the design and implementation of GT5, i.e., it was developed like a work of art and not like a product with a customer focus.