Yamauchi at DICE 2011: Gran Turismo to invoke mimesis creating Existance

[amar212]

Although I am very aware this thread will probably result with 90% of comments that will be criticism of GT5 on already known basis and ignorant comments regarding the ways that Kazunori Yamauchi spends his time, I really hope for decent level of discussion.

I use this space to make a plea towards constructive comments regarding very matter of the thread. Please, do your best to leave the unnecessary subjects out of this discussion, thank you in advance.

During his yesterday keynote on DICE 2011 Kazunori Yamauchi touched the realms of some of his visions and outlines of his views to evolution of game-design, following his passion in RPG-genre which he pursuits for more than 2 decades.

It is not widely known that B-Spec mode is evolution of his own AI RPG system of real-time behavioral management, today represented in form of GT5's AI routines as well as routines and evolution of B-Spec drivers.

In his explanation of vision of future design he emphasized the importance of "mimesis" - he’s driven by the idea of that mimesis pushing the industry forward.

Yamauchi defined mimesis as “a certain reaction when you meet something incredible, find something new, and are infected with feverish desire to do something. What I want to do with Gran Turismo is invoke this mimesis on the audience of players.”

Citing the works of Mark Cerny and Richard Garriott, which helped instill mimesis in him at a young age, Yamauchi said he now felt obligated “to pass on what I’ve received to the new audience and the next generation. When a form of art is undergoing development, it’s a chain of mimesis that really makes it change and grow.”

Yamauchi said he saw Gran Turismo as existing the edge of the video game and automobile industries, just as new organisms come into existence at the savannah at the edge of a desert and the rainforest. He noted how Gran Turismo was used to design the fastest car on Earth, along with sponsor Red Bull.

Though he’s known specifically for games focused on auto racing, Yamauchi said he has a much bolder vision for a type of game he wants to see the industry produce.

“It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,” he said. “This theme is something that’s already explored in other forms of entertainment, whether it be music, movies or literature. It’s really a dream that I have, but obviously someone here can make it as well.”

Yamauchi completed his presentation with an appreciation of the “gems” found in the history of both automobiles and video games, saying he would join the development community to “continue creating history together.”

I find his vision extremely interesting and provocative. Paired with AI routine evolution development, as well as his already known goal to establish a virtual museum/collection of car industry for the future generations, this mimesis idea could bring a whole new level into GT games, unimaginable in the overall genre.

I would like to know what do you think about possible outcomes of integration of such process into Gran Turismo games and what could be the outcomes design and structure wise?

via Gamasutra:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...als_Yamauchi_On_Mimesis_Creating_History.php?

 

[xSNAKEx]

I have absollutely no idea what is going on....

What?

 

[CAG_Theory]

Granturismo Mission Vision

 

[brambos]

Thanks for posting this. I'll definitely check out the full interview and come back with a more thoughtful feedback to the discussion than I can provide right now.

I like his mimesis hypothesis as a starting point though, since passion and personal perspectives are more than anything what seem to be driving the development of his GT legacy.

 

[grrlpurple]

Can I please have some of what he has been smoking?

 

[ShaneG]

Though he’s known specifically for games focused on auto racing, Yamauchi said he has a much bolder vision for a type of game he wants to see the industry produce.

“It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,” he said. “This theme is something that’s already explored in other forms of entertainment, whether it be music, movies or literature. It’s really a dream that I have, but obviously someone here can make it as well.”

He should try Red Dead Redemption then. 👍

As for his "AI system", well, I think it's all been said already.

 

[PzR Slim]

See this is the whole problem for me. KY has this epic vision of what he want's to create. It's a fusion of all sorts of different ideas based around a computer racing game. The problem is it just doesn't work. Technologically it's not possible or he is incapable of getting his vision to work. And what has resulted with GT5 is a bit of a mess. I really wish he and they had just concentrated on making the greatest racing game of all time.

I think it's fantastic that he has dreams and a vision of the utopia he wants to create but when those dreams and that vision gets in the way of the product then I can't help think he's doing all of this for his own needs rather than the needs of the paying customers. What percentage of the paying customers who bought GT5 are interested in, “It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,”. It just seems that he has so many thoughts and ideas in his head that he struggles to bring them together into a coherent, focussed direction. After reading what he said in this speech I fully understand why GT5 turned out like it did. Should have just concentrated on making a kick ass racing game KY.

 

[dominic280378]

See this is the whole problem for me. KY has this epic vision of what he want's to create. It's a fusion of all sorts of different ideas based around a computer racing game. The problem is it just doesn't work. Technologically it's not possible or he is incapable of getting his vision to work. And what has resulted with GT5 is a bit of a mess. I really wish he and they had just concentrated on making the greatest racing game of all time.

I think it's fantastic that he has dreams and a vision of the utopia he wants to create but when those dreams and that vision gets in the way of the product then I can't help think he's doing all of this for his own needs rather than the needs of the paying customers. What percentage of the paying customers who bought GT5 are interested in, “It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,”. It just seems that he has so many thoughts and ideas in his head that he struggles to bring them together into a coherent, focussed direction. After reading what he said in this speech I fully understand why GT5 turned out like it did. Should have just concentrated on making a kick ass racing game KY.

+1, excellent post. Also its hard for GT5 to make players come to terms with death when we can smash into a wall at 200mph and there are no consequences whatsoever

 

[Ronin_Kurenai]

See this is the whole problem for me. KY has this epic vision of what he want's to create. It's a fusion of all sorts of different ideas based around a computer racing game. The problem is it just doesn't work. Technologically it's not possible or he is incapable of getting his vision to work. And what has resulted with GT5 is a bit of a mess. I really wish he and they had just concentrated on making the greatest racing game of all time.

I think it's fantastic that he has dreams and a vision of the utopia he wants to create but when those dreams and that vision gets in the way of the product then I can't help think he's doing all of this for his own needs rather than the needs of the paying customers. What percentage of the paying customers who bought GT5 are interested in, “It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,”. It just seems that he has so many thoughts and ideas in his head that he struggles to bring them together into a coherent, focussed direction. After reading what he said in this speech I fully understand why GT5 turned out like it did. Should have just concentrated on making a kick ass racing game KY.

👍 Is there anymore to be said? Great post, wholeheartedly agree. 💡

 

[brambos]

It just seems that he has so many thoughts and ideas in his head that he struggles to bring them together into a coherent, focussed direction. After reading what he said in this speech I fully understand why GT5 turned out like it did. Should have just concentrated on making a kick ass racing game KY.

Yes and no. I wouldn't want GT5 to become a direct competitor to all the other 'big' racing games out there.

I prefer KY to take the blue-ocean approach rather than the red-ocean approach (please look it up.. it would take too much time to explain here, but it's the philosophy that made Nintendo the out-of-the-box company that they are).

The biggest problem is that KY seems to be (my assumption) both the creative director and the project leader simultaneously. He is the clearly the guy with the creative vision, but he really could use a pragmatic counterpart to help pick out the parts of his vision that are realistic at this point in time and create a *coherent* product out of it with a realistic release date and roadmap.

 

[tigermilk]

OK, so basically mimesis is implementing artificial intelligence and trying to imitate human behavior. He said he wants to capture the concept of how a "person should live and how they should come to terms with death".

From the GT perspective, what could that mean? It's certainly isn't B-spec in my mind. I believe it was the original Forza that had a feature where the game tried to learn your driving behaviors so that you essentially had an AI driver that could sub for you. It was a rather poor implementation, but it's been done. And frankly it wasn't too fun.

If he really wants this, I'd say focus on the 2 things that GT has traditionally lacked - AI drivers who aren't brain dead and a damage system. AI to mimic those human behaviors. You want people to be able to come to terms with death in the game? Make that damage system not only something that has monetary consequences in the game (i.e., repair costs), but your driver health, livelihood, etc. Risky driving skills that lead to crashes, wall bounces, etc, should not be rewarded as they always have been in GT but something of consequence. Depending on the severity of the crash, not only do you have car damage, but you have a broken arm, a concussion, a need to amputate your legs, death... Sports games have had injuries as part of the game for ages. Nothing worse than loosing your starting QB, striker, pitcher, goalie, or center for a season to injury.

But honestly, none of what he spews is new. Talk is cheap. He's talking the talk, but he has yet to walk the walk. The GT AI system is terrible. it's been terrible for 13 years.

Now I can see how a car racing RPG could be interesting. Take the life of Robert Kubica for instance. Fantastic F1 driver who had to grow up in the karting ranks and move up. Make a RPG where you start as a kid, have to develop those skills. If you don't have the skills you simply don't move up and are stuck in the amateur/hobby ranks for the rest of your life. You need to find a job to support your hobby racing. If you have the stuff, you move up. Say you become that pro driver. In the off-season you may enjoy a little rally racing. Imagine you do a little race in Italy, crash, nearly get impaled by a guardrail, get rushed to the hospital to save your right hand and replace the 5 liters or so of blood you lost. Now your season is screwed and you are sitting out most or all of the season.

I suggest he sit down with a game like EA's FIFA and go into the virtual player mode. It's a nice implementation of at least developing the player skills.

Honestly, I see a true racing RPG coming from another company, not PD. They've shown they can't innovate. They truly are stagnant when it comes to originality.

 

[Stu-Pid]

Should have just concentrated on making a kick ass racing game KY.

GT1 was a genre defining moment in gaming. Anyone that played it for the first time was wowed. It was different, it was special, and it re-set the bar for every driving game that followed it.

GT5 is essentially an extension of GT1. Yes they have been able to improve the graphics, physics, add time of day transitions, weather, damage, online play etc etc, but it is still essentially the same game at heart.

Now many of us would be very happy if PD just kept tweaking and improving the GT series until we had what was essentially GT4 with GT5 graphics, physics, and online. Now there is no doubt that would be an awesome game, and probably the best racing game of all time, but it would at heart still be GT1 with bells and whistles.

I get the impression that Kaz wants another GT1 moment, and to create another game that takes the genre forward beyond what anyone expected, Another wow moment.

There's a expression that goes something like:

"If you reach for the stars and fall short, you may still land on the moon"

It's people reaching for the stars that have bought us some of the greatest video games of all time. Games like Elite, Super Mario Bros 3, Metal Gear Solid, GT1, Super Mario 64, Half Life, Ocarina of Time, Red Dead Redemption etc etc. These games didn't just seek to be the best in their genre, they wanted to create something new, and in doing so they dragged the rest of the genre along with them. But you can also guarantee that none of those games were perfect, and there were things within them that the creators weren't satisfied with, but they were still more than good enough.

I'm pleased that there are game designers like Kaz. He may frustrate the hell out of some of you and leave you scratching your heads, but it's also people like him that you'll be thanking in 5 years time when you're playing a game that is better than anything that you ever imagined.

 

[gtone339]

I have absollutely no idea what is going on....

What?

He should focus on GT5's updates or GT6.

 

[PzR Slim]

Yes and no. I wouldn't want GT5 to become a direct competitor to all the other 'big' racing games out there.

I prefer KY to take the blue-ocean approach rather than the red-ocean approach (please look it up.. it would take too much time to explain here, but it's the philosophy that made Nintendo the out-of-the-box company that they are).

The biggest problem is that KY seems to be (my assumption) both the creative director and the project leader simultaneously. He is the clearly the guy with the creative vision, but he really could use a pragmatic counterpart to help pick out the parts of his vision that are realistic at this point in time and create a *coherent* product out of it with a realistic release date and roadmap.

Good point. Is it this huge conflict of interests that have resulted in GT5? Is there no one at PD who feels strong enough to stand up to KY and say, 'sorry boss but I don't think it will work.'?

The question also arises, what does this speech mean for GT6 and the series moving forward? Are we going to see future games moving further towards an RPG context and will the racing fall further down the pecking order? Or does he move off in a completely different direction and the GT series is no longer the most prominent one? Do PD have the ability to do this?

A very thought provoking speech.

 

[brambos]

Good point. Is it this huge conflict of interests that have resulted in GT5? Is there no one at PD who feels strong enough to stand up to KY and say, 'sorry boss but I don't think it will work.'?

In my experience of working for many years in a big multinational creative company that is very much the essence of Japanese corporate culture. So it could very well explain the disjointed feel of GT5.

I can imagine only the big Bobos over at Sony HQ can tell KY to change directions a little bit.

 

[JJ72]

I'm pleased that there are game designers like Kaz. He may frustrate the hell out of some of you and leave you scratching your heads, but it's also people like him that you'll be thanking in 5 years time when you're playing a game that is better than anything that you ever imagined.

Prove that making empty promises and citing philosophical references can turn a scam into a saint, even in the realm of racing games.

Look, what Kaz said.....isn't something you can accomplish in a racing game. unless crossing the line and winning races comes with a price of wiping the entire virtual GT population off the map.

The man is delusional.

 

[tigermilk]

Good point. Is it this huge conflict of interests that have resulted in GT5? Is there no one at PD who feels strong enough to stand up to KY and say, 'sorry boss but I don't think it will work.'?

Not in traditional Japanese hierarchical society. The boss is always right. Having worked intimately with Japanese engineers going on 10 years now and traveled there some 2 dozen+ times and sitting with them in design reviews and top-level meetings for projects with budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars, I've seen firsthand the hierarchy at work. Boss says something, lots of nods of agreement from everyone under him. In private they may confide to you they disagree, but never in public or to their superior.

 

[PzR Slim]

GT1 was a genre defining moment in gaming. Anyone that played it for the first time was wowed. It was different, it was special, and it re-set the bar for every driving game that followed it.

GT5 is essentially an extension of GT1. Yes they have been able to improve the graphics, physics, add time of day transitions, weather, damage, online play etc etc, but it is still essentially the same game at heart.

Now many of us would be very happy if PD just kept tweaking and improving the GT series until we had what was essentially GT4 with GT5 graphics, physics, and online. Now there is no doubt that would be an awesome game, and probably the best racing game of all time, but it would at heart still be GT1 with bells and whistles.

I get the impression that Kaz wants another GT1 moment, and to create another game that takes the genre forward beyond what anyone expected, Another wow moment.

There's a expression that goes something like:

"If you reach for the stars and fall short, you may still land on the moon"

It's people reaching for the stars that have bought us some of the greatest video games of all time. Games like Elite, Super Mario Bros 3, Metal Gear Solid, GT1, Super Mario 64, Half Life, Ocarina of Time, Red Dead Redemption etc etc. These games didn't just seek to be the best in their genre, they wanted to create something new, and in doing so they dragged the rest of the genre along with them. But you can also guarantee that none of those games were perfect, and there were things within them that the creators weren't satisfied with, but they were still more than good enough.

I'm pleased that there are game designers like Kaz. He may frustrate the hell out of some of you and leave you scratching your heads, but it's also people like him that you'll be thanking in 5 years time when you're playing a game that is better than anything that you ever imagined.

All those games you mentioned were absolutely stunning at there time of release, can the same be said of GT5. I don't see GT5 having moved the genre forward in anyway, shape or form. GT merely caught up with the release of GT5. And with release of FM4, Shift 2, etc in the coming months whose to say it wont be lagging somewhat behind the competition in a years time?

KY and PD are right to have a vision and to 'reach for the stars', but whilst doing that they also need to produce a current product that is upto the required standard. And for many, many people that is just not the case with GT5. And with this speech he seems to be thinking and dreaming even further away from what the vast majority of people want from a computer racing game. Is it his vision and dreams that are holding the product back?

 

[Luminis]

What I get from this:

his already known goal to establish a virtual museum/collection of car industry for the future generations

“It would make me happy to see a game that really makes you think about how a person should live and how they should come to terms with death,” he said. “This theme is something that’s already explored in other forms of entertainment, whether it be music, movies or literature. It’s really a dream that I have, but obviously someone here can make it as well.”

45% virtual stamp collecting, 45% soap opera, 10% racing.

 

[UN_OC]

Game about death and life etc.. Heavy Rain? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Rain



Just wondering how to go with this....

- A game that allows you to think about death? I thought about that too while grnding B-spec.

- Making speaches about others playing games to make them thinking about life? Now I know that what Kaz was doing to come up with the idea of previous GT's... smoking pot...

- He wants 'gamers' to think about the point of life... I repeat.. 'gamers'.....

- So he wants to mkae a game that brings thoughts of death to us... and he failed with a racing sim....

 

[amar212]

And with release of FM4, Shift 2, etc in the coming months whose to say it wont be lagging somewhat behind the competition in a years time?

I don't want my future comment to draw this discussion in the wrong direction, but..

None of the genre-competitors (on any platform) has ever even tried to create something different for the genre. In your previous post you've mentioned Drivatar (from FM1), but notice Drivatar is copied asset of GT4's B-Spec (GT4 was released before FM1) which execution was pretty bad.

None of the forthcoming games emphasizes any feature that could lead to development of the actual structure or portray of the genre. One and only example I could think of is breakthrough that Codemasters did with Race Driver series (PS2/Xbox/PC) where they tried to blend soup-opera segments into racing, resulting with fresh ways to mimic idea of career.

On the other side, Gran Turismo series is the most innovative driving series, period. From the first game to GT5, every new game bring new aspect that defines evolution towards unexpected.

Unique "ownership/maintenance" philosophy - evolved from GT1 to GT5 - never got any real attention, while B-SPec was never praised as deserved because mainstream only saw it as money-making machine. I can accept that B-Spec is far from perfect, but evolution of B-Spec from GT4 to GT5 is noticeable and undeniable.

For last 13 years and first Gran Turismo game I really expected that any other developer dive into realms of original, unique and different. Nobody did. All driving games that are shaping for release in the near future are only developing the same shell made of same content inside the same borders of the same genre. And what is even more funny, all those "competitors" are still copying the same design-frame that GT series pretty much invented in 1997.

I still wait to see any driving/racing game that will bring something innovative and unique into genre - even on levels of innovation that first GT did in 1997.

But from what I see in perspective, that wait is going to be a long one.

 

[Stu-Pid]

All those games you mentioned were absolutely stunning at there time of release, can the same be said of GT5. I don't see GT5 having moved the genre forward in anyway, shape or form. GT merely caught up with the release of GT5. And with release of FM4, Shift 2, etc in the coming months whose to say it wont be lagging somewhat behind the competition in a years time?

I think that you have completely missed my point. I'm not saying that GT5 is a genre defining game at all, I'm saying that it is merely an advancement of what has come before it. The next wow moment will come from something that takes the genre in another direction, and possibly something that nobody saw coming.

I think that GT6 (assuming that it arrives on the PS3) will essentially be the final advancement of GT1 (essentially the game that people wanted GT5 to be), and then after that they will look to create something new and different, another wow moment. They may well not succeed, and it may be that Kaz has had his wow moment and someone else will provide the next one.

And as an aside, I don't think it's fair to say that GT5 has not moved the genre forward in any way. The premium cars are stunning, the physics are unmatched on a console, and touches like the day night transitions are amazing. There are many, many positives in this game. Maybe not stunning, but bloody good none the less.

 

[HiSpeeder]

I love GT5, and have played all of the GT's, but at the same time I'm frustrated that there are so few "Wow!" moments where you are blown away by what's happening. Be it amazing gameplay, something funny, or whatever. I have a lot of fun with GT5, but I don't really connect with what's happening there on screen. I guess what Kaz wants to achieve is a really immersive experience, but it's like they are trying too hard or something and are throwing way too many things in there at once.

I don't find his vision in the game working for me. For example, to get a a proper fun race you have to really find out for yourself how your personal ability vs. the AI stacks up, which car you need to have a challenging race, which makes it all very artificial. This is something which should just be there right out of the box. Some of the 2 lap overtaking battles are at exact the challenge level I prefer, it's is a shame there isn't a simple system in GT5 to recreate that level of challenge over and over again. For other people this might be too much of a challenge on the other hand, so it should work both ways. In the end, racing is what you will want to be doing with a game like GT5, so it is really strange to me they did not focus on this part. For all the other extra's, no matter how cool it is that those are there, they just missed the opportunity to optimize the user experience of the core of the game.

So, I agree with previous posters that PD should have focussed on just a few aspects of their vision and make those aspects truly great. The car models of the premiums are mostly wonderful, the graphics of GT games always have been ahead of other games, the handling, etc. But other than that, it feels like all the other parts are just not completed. The other day I was playing a demo of WRC rally on the PS3, just the sound of those cars and the excitement of going full speed over a proper rally track is just miles ahead of the rallying experience in GT5. I have not tried the rest of this game, but just 2 rally stages in a demo I found on PSN gave me more fun than all of the rallying in GT5. I don't understand why PD would then even bother including this rally stuff, I mean at PD they also see what other developers are doing right? Same when I first tried Dirt 2, I was immediately taken by all the action around me, while GT5 just does the exact opposite. When I think of it, even the first Need for Speed which came out back in 1994 had some of those elements which drew you into the game. Be it the spoken commentary with the cars and the tracks ("Ahh, put on your Lederhosen for this one!" was one of the introductions for a scenic track in the Alps) or the funny video of a cop they showed you when you were apprehended ("Hmm, think I caught myself my first UFO here!"). Perhaps this might be too corny for many, but I love those things.

Also, this whole online RPG part - isn't the way EA uses Autolog exactly how the RPG-element and online interaction should have been in GT5? It's all about interaction with the game and others playing the game to me. The problem with GT5 is that is feels so lifeless somehow.

Would be great if the guys from PD sat down with some other (arcade) racing game developers such as Codemasters / EA and somehow connect all the realism of GT5 with plain fun - because for all the realism they've included GT5 will always be a computer game. I am not really an advocate of arcade racing, but the one advantage all of these games have over GT5 is that they offer a fun experience right out of the box.

So, Kaz should better employ some people who know how his vision translates into a proper gaming experience. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, I don't know, but I imagine that at the core of their company only Japanese people are involved. If they would somehow broaden the diversity of their developers it might also increase their ability to produce something that connects to their customers.

 

[PzR Slim]

I don't want my future comment to draw this discussion in the wrong direction, but..

None of the genre-competitors (on any platform) has ever even tried to create something different for the genre. In your previous post you've mentioned Drivatar (from FM1), but notice Drivatar is copied asset of GT4's B-Spec (GT4 was released before FM1) which execution was pretty bad.

None of the forthcoming games emphasizes any feature that could lead to development of the actual structure or portray of the genre. One and only example I could think of is breakthrough that Codemasters did with Race Driver series (PS2/Xbox/PC) where they tried to blend soup-opera segments into racing, resulting with fresh ways to mimic idea of career.

On the other side, Gran Turismo series is the most innovative driving series, period. From the first game to GT5, every new game bring new aspect that defines evolution towards unexpected.

Unique "ownership/maintenance" philosophy - evolved from GT1 to GT5 - never got any real attention, while B-SPec was never praised as deserved because mainstream only saw it as money-making machine. I can accept that B-Spec is far from perfect, but evolution of B-Spec from GT4 to GT5 is noticeable and undeniable.

For last 13 years and first Gran Turismo game I really expected that any other developer dive into realms of original, unique and different. Nobody did. All driving games that are shaping for release in the near future are only developing the same shell made of same content inside the same borders of the same genre. And what is even more funny, all those "competitors" are still copying the same design-frame that GT series pretty much invented in 1997.

I still wait to see any driving/racing game that will bring something innovative and unique into genre - even on levels of innovation that first GT did in 1997.

But from what I see in perspective, that wait is going to be a long one.

Sorry Amar it wasn't me that mentioned drivatar

And we are quite far down the development road of racing games now and it's difficult for any developer to introduce something truly genre defining. Althought Shift 2 would be appear to be attempting it by creating a realistic as possible cockpit experience, although I have my reservations about that.

And I still fail to see what GT5 brings that is so evolutionary, others games dit it before and in a large number of cases better. And yes most games follow the same structure that PD implemented all those years ago, however, at present in my opinion and in the opinions of many people, other developers are implementing that principle in a much better way than PD have with GT5.

This is all very OT and you specifically asked us not to do that so probably best that we both stop and get back to topic. As I said it was a very thought provoking speech, as I'm sure it was meant to be. It brings up many questions in regard to both the direction GT and PD will take in the coming years. And if I'm honest it's a speech that doesn't fill me with hope for what GT may be in the future.

 

[dominic280378]

I don't want my future comment to draw this discussion in the wrong direction, but..

None of the genre-competitors (on any platform) has ever even tried to create something different for the genre. In your previous post you've mentioned Drivatar (from FM1), but notice Drivatar is copied asset of GT4's B-Spec (GT4 was released before FM1) which execution was pretty bad.

None of the forthcoming games emphasizes any feature that could lead to development of the actual structure or portray of the genre. One and only example I could think of is breakthrough that Codemasters did with Race Driver series (PS2/Xbox/PC) where they tried to blend soup-opera segments into racing, resulting with fresh ways to mimic idea of career.

On the other side, Gran Turismo series is the most innovative driving series, period. From the first game to GT5, every new game bring new aspect that defines evolution towards unexpected.

Unique "ownership/maintenance" philosophy - evolved from GT1 to GT5 - never got any real attention, while B-SPec was never praised as deserved because mainstream only saw it as money-making machine. I can accept that B-Spec is far from perfect, but evolution of B-Spec from GT4 to GT5 is noticeable and undeniable.

For last 13 years and first Gran Turismo game I really expected that any other developer dive into realms of original, unique and different. Nobody did. All driving games that are shaping for release in the near future are only developing the same shell made of same content inside the same borders of the same genre. And what is even more funny, all those "competitors" are still copying the same design-frame that GT series pretty much invented in 1997.

I still wait to see any driving/racing game that will bring something innovative and unique into genre - even on levels of innovation that first GT did in 1997.

But from what I see in perspective, that wait is going to be a long one.

I really have to disagree with the points you make. The "evolution" mentioned from GT4 to GT5 seems to be the removal of features rather than evolving them: no fast forwarding b-spec races, a lot less a-spec events, lack of tuning features (eg. gear ratio's) etc. and the introduction of features that no one wanted, the incredibly poorly thought out leveling system being the most obvious example.

The criticism of developers for not expanding on GT1's framework can be squarely aimed at PD as well, as GT5 clings on to so much of its past. The camera panning around your car before the race was great back in 1998 but when its panning around a standard model car in GT5 is emphasizes how dated GT5 feels in many places.

If KY wants us to connect to games on an emotional level, then B-Spec is an abject failure. Picking a name from a list and the colour of the "names" clothes then making us issue vague commands while the "name" drives terribly for hours before theres an discernible improvement in his performance in not the way to inspire emotion.
Unless the emotion he was trying to invoke was rage and disappointment.
B-Spec is now used solely as means to make money in the games ludicrous currency.
Also, I refused to call B-Spec drivers characters, as they don't have any character, no more so than the hundreds of enemies you shoot in a FPS.

 

[iLex]

It has been said many times before, be it in a different way, but Kaz seems to be Lennon without McCartney. He is a revolutionary thinker and quite probably a brilliant mind, but he needs someone to give his ideas a commercial touch if you will. Direct it into something that the masses like. Kill some darlings to make other darlings flourish.

I think it is absolutely great that Kaz thinks beyond the genre and way, way outside the box. But I think it wouldn't hurt if there was someone who would build a new box around his ideas.


A bit OT: There are many discussions about whether or not each installment of GT brought something to the genre, but nobody can deny that the GT series has something that no other game offers. I can't tell you what it is exactly, but it made me buy a new console. I could've raced on my mac.
This something has been implanted in GT1 by Kaz and has never been removed. Brilliance is close to madness (or something like that ). Shadows might be jagged, the XP system might be flawed, but when I take a car to a track, I feel the same as I felt taking that FTO around a track in GT1.

 

[Tvensky]

great thread. Didnt know that KAZ is thinking this way, but I allways knew he was special GT is the only game I play with passion, that makes me true happy, sometimes even want to cry from nothing, sometimes laugh out loud with no purpose or reason.. In some areas GT is very complete and mature.. and in some just like KAz sayd, work on GT will never be done, you can add forever and ever.. hope I will survive in this world to see with what all this will end. For me its more than just a game for sure

 

[StevenDunn99]

I read Amar's opening post and the thought that came to mind was that it summed up everything we know about Kaz,... he is a dreamer. I find it very difficult to add anything to the well written posts by PzR Slim 👍, who now becomes my unofficial spokesperson on this matter.

 

[BWX]

I think now that Kaz is what's wrong with GT5 and GT6 would probably be better off if someone else was in charge. I'm grateful to Kaz for giving me GT1, GT2, GT3, and GT4. I'm disappointed in Kaz for bringing me GT5 with b-spec and taking OUT all of the things that GT4 had that GT5 doesn't.

I have thought for a while that Kaz was loosing his touch. GTPSP did not cause me to go out and buy a PSP like all the other GTs caused me to buy the consoles they ran on. The GT that comes out for the PS4, by how Kaz is talking will not cause me to go out and buy a PS4.

This latest Kaz speech has just solidified what I've been thinking lately, Kaz needs to get out of the way and let GT be GT again, not this insane RPG/car game/stamp collecting/ b-spec grinding vision Kaz has for future GTs.

It's sad to see Gran Turismo be ruined by it's creator. I guess I am learning about life and death. The death of Gran Turismo at the hands of it's creator. Very sad indeed.

 

[JediRage]

So he said this yesterday eh? Well that's approximately just over two months since GT5's release and if he still hasn't learnt from his mistakes, I've heard all that's necessary.

By making philosophical observations and lumping them with games including Gran Turismo he is just asking for abuse how muchever the OP tries to set the ground rules. I think he said something along the lines of "GT5 is 40% of my vision". Well now I'm truly terrified of his '100% vision'.