Yet *another* Model of 360

To be fair, I'd pay $50 a year for XBL after using PSN. The XBL Marketplace and its constant flood of Arcade games, trailers, demos, and other things are worth the $50 alone... they're things that are sorely missed on the PS3. While $50 for online play is overpriced (should be $30 or so maximum), XBL Silver is a steal, and I'd take that any day over what PSN offers.

However, once Sony actually puts up good content on the Store regularly, and once Home debuts... XBL better be free. :P
 
ok ive run the numbers lol:

US NZ
$600 = $838.83
$479 = $669.67

man we're getting ripped something wicked!
Can someone in the US go and buy a brand new 60gig and ship it to me in a few weeks? I'll give you NZ$900(US$643.77)

or i might join ebay lol. Man or dollars mean at the moment, my mate bought lfs s2 for NZ$67.xx 2 weeks ago now it'll only cost NZ$44.1 lol:D
 
One more thing...

As even Duck pointed out, for only about $100 more, in the US, you can get a PS3 with:
  • Blu-ray player @ 1080p, w/Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD decoding, and up to 8.1 lossless PCM audio
  • High Capacity Games with as much as 50GB of data (only 7GB per disc for XB360)
  • HDMI 1.3 (although MS wont say yet what version of HDMI it will include with the Elite)
  • Multi-card Reader
  • WiFi
  • No Monthly Online Service Charges
  • and additional features exclusive to the PS3

I can see your point on the pricing issues, and it certainly makes sense, but I'm going to disagree.

- Audio and videophiles are the only ones who are really grasping for the high-end stuff, as most people neither care about or understand what most of it means, and what it does. Beyond that, they would have to buy plenty of new equipment to take full-advantage of the PS3, and I don't know many people who are doing it...

- High-Capacity games doesn't seem like a deal-maker to me. Yes, there are limits to the current DVDs used by the 360, and it has been driven-home time and time again... But why are so many studios jumping ship to the 360 if there is so much more room to use on the PS3?

- On the subject of HDMI, I'm not certain. I think whats important there is that Microsoft is including it with the 360, it isn't something you have to buy later like you do with the PS3...

- WiFi isn't a feature that I can see many people going crazy about either. Simply put, I don't trust WiFi to carry a bandwidth necessary for online gaming at the best-rates, beyond that, it being a 'safe' idea for data transfer as well. Microsoft has noted that most of their user-base uses Ethernet connections (myself included), so why have a feature that most of the users won't take advantage of? My friend has brought his Wii over to my house numerous times, and the WiFi on that drives me insane. The connection is never constant, and you have to buy some outrageous add-on to get it to work with my Ethernet port...

- I think Duck summed-up the online issue pretty well. Sony's setup is decent-ish, but it isn't nearly as good as that of XBL. Microsoft hit the spot with marketplace, and the speed and simplicity of it is outstanding. Granted, HOME may be an interesting addition to the PS3 to move a few more units, but again, I don't know many people who buy a PS3 just for the free online gaming... But for $50 a year, I don't see that as an outrageous price. I used to spend more than that a month at the local arcade...

- Additional features? What? SD card slots? PSP connectivity?

---

...I was at Target the other day and I found it rather funny to see how many PS3s were sitting on the shelves. I have yet to be able to locate a Wii anywhere near me, and 360s are indeed selling well enough, but there are usually a few around wherever you go these days (well, it has been out a while...)...

Beyond that, I found it pretty funny how pissed-off people are about DMC4 and AC6 going to the 360... [sarcasm]Now we just need MGS4 to jump-ship, and the PS3 will be officially screwed...[/sarcasm]
 
- On the subject of HDMI, I'm not certain. I think whats important there is that Microsoft is including it with the 360, it isn't something you have to buy later like you do with the PS3...
Do you mean including the HDMI cable?

If not, HDMI is already standard on the PS3 (thought I'm not sure about the 20gb). If so, then I agree - Sony should have provided us with a cable in the box...

I still think it's the price issue that's the main obstacle sitting between the 360's and PS3's sales. I just don't think a lot of people realise you'll be paying less in the long run for the PS3 than having to pay for the pricey extras and online for the 360...
 
- WiFi isn't a feature that I can see many people going crazy about either. Simply put, I don't trust WiFi to carry a bandwidth necessary for online gaming at the best-rates, beyond that, it being a 'safe' idea for data transfer as well. Microsoft has noted that most of their user-base uses Ethernet connections (myself included), so why have a feature that most of the users won't take advantage of? My friend has brought his Wii over to my house numerous times, and the WiFi on that drives me insane. The connection is never constant, and you have to buy some outrageous add-on to get it to work with my Ethernet port...
Well, to be fair, the Wii's Wi-Fi isn't nearly as good as the 360's or PS3's. I can play online with the same amount of lag (read: none) wirelessly as I can wired. Same goes for download speeds.
G.T
Do you mean including the HDMI cable?
The 360 Elite comes with an HDMI cable.
 
Duċk;2617510
To be fair, I'd pay $50 a year for XBL after using PSN. The XBL Marketplace and its constant flood of Arcade games, trailers, demos, and other things are worth the $50 alone... they're things that are sorely missed on the PS3.
Please list all the content available on XBL in March of 2003 (more than year after the Xbox was launched, and four months after XBL was launched)?

How about a list of all the content available on XBL in March of 2006 (three years after XBL launch, and four months after the XB360 launch)?

PSN is only four months old and already available in over 50 countries (if Wikipedia is correct, XBL is currently available in only 37 countries).

PSN already has over 125 different downloadable content, including:
  • 10 Games +some additional ADD-ON game packages
  • 15 Game Demos
  • Over three hours of trailers, clips, and behind the scenes videos, most of which are available in 1080p
The PS Stores are very easy to navigate through, and they always place the most recently added files on the very first page. Now that there is background downloading as well as the ability to download multiple files, even from multiple accounts accessing files from different regional PS Stores, I'd say the PSN is in fact quite impressive... especially considering its only been four months for crying out loud.

At this rate, and with Home coming online in the near future, I’d say PSN is not only an excellent feature as it stands right now, but looks to be developing at a much more rapid pace than XBL ever did.

I will agree though with others that XBL should be free for what you get compared to what PSN offers today, and how quickly PSN is developing and growing.







- Audio and videophiles are the only ones who are really grasping for the high-end stuff, as most people neither care about or understand what most of it means, and what it does. Beyond that, they would have to buy plenty of new equipment to take full-advantage of the PS3, and I don't know many people who are doing it...
You are certainly entitles to that opinion, however I think you'll find many people would not agree with it. Judging by sales of HDTV's over the last ten years and that the market for these expensive consoles is not exactly filled with your low brow consumer using low definition displays.

I realize some are, but I seriously doubt most of them are, and in fact I strongly suspect the opposite is true, given the relative high cost and high performance of the consoles and games. These factors would attract more customers who not only have the means for high quality displays, but who also appreciate what they have to offer. Otherwise, one might as well stick with older consoles that work just fine on lesser quality displays, and at a fraction of the cost of a next gen console.


- High-Capacity games doesn't seem like a deal-maker to me. Yes, there are limits to the current DVDs used by the 360, and it has been driven-home time and time again... But why are so many studios jumping ship to the 360 if there is so much more room to use on the PS3?
Easy. There is a 10 million user base to sell to... and even if they are given seriously trimmed versions of the game on XB360, they'll be just as good as what they are currently getting, so they'll buy them. If I was a game developer I'd be doing the exact same thing. Trim down a game, repackage it for XB360, and pocket the profits.

As far as capacity, anyone familiar with Moore's Law, how it’s effect carrys over to multiple industries, including gaming, and who follows or researches the game industry in regards to the size of the games, and the average storage capacity being used over the last ten years, knows that some developers are already needing more capacity than DVD can hold, and the numbers are only going to grow - especially if they want to model games in 1080p.. and at 60fps!

I'm sorry, but the XB360 not supporting games on a high capacity disc format is the same as if the PS2 and Xbox only supported games on CD-ROM.


- On the subject of HDMI, I'm not certain. I think whats important there is that Microsoft is including it with the 360, it isn't something you have to buy later like you do with the PS3...
HDMI cable costs less than $1 per foot. Personally, I would prefer to buy my own, so I know the quality, and get the length I want.

If you want to cry fowl, ask MS why they charge so much for their HDDs and other accessories. If you tried to build a premium XB360 to match as closely to a PS3 as possible, you’d have to spend several hundred dollars more.


- WiFi isn't a feature that I can see many people going crazy about either. Simply put, I don't trust WiFi to carry a bandwidth necessary for online gaming at the best-rates, beyond that, it being a 'safe' idea for data transfer as well. Microsoft has noted that most of their user-base uses Ethernet connections (myself included), so why have a feature that most of the users won't take advantage of? My friend has brought his Wii over to my house numerous times, and the WiFi on that drives me insane. The connection is never constant, and you have to buy some outrageous add-on to get it to work with my Ethernet port...
I never use my Ethernet, except for the one desktop that is in my office where the cable modem sits. In five years I can count the WiFi drops on just one hand (my internet service has dropped, but that has nothing to do with WiFi, but just problems from my ISP).

As for transfer speeds, the PS3 WiFi adapter can transmit up to 54Gbps... that's more than ten times faster than most broadband connections. Thus the only limiting factors are the person's internet connection and the traffic on the servers where you are downloading from, which effects Ethernet as well. It's a non issue.


- I think Duck summed-up the online issue pretty well. Sony's setup is decent-ish, but it isn't nearly as good as that of XBL. Microsoft hit the spot with marketplace, and the speed and simplicity of it is outstanding. Granted, HOME may be an interesting addition to the PS3 to move a few more units, but again, I don't know many people who buy a PS3 just for the free online gaming... But for $50 a year, I don't see that as an outrageous price. I used to spend more than that a month at the local arcade...
(see my response to Duck's comments)


- Additional features? What? SD card slots? PSP connectivity?
Yes, yes, and more. Support for 7 wireless controllers, SACD, XMB, Bluetooth, four USB 2.0 ports, Gigabit Ethernet port, support for Linux, Ubuntu, Fedora Core 5, Gentoo, Debian, Yellow Dog, and other OS, among other things.

In addition, for those that want to help medical research, PS3's are now part of Stanford's F@H Project... and are absolutely outperforming every PC that is participating.



...I was at Target the other day and I found it rather funny to see how many PS3s were sitting on the shelves. I have yet to be able to locate a Wii anywhere near me, and 360s are indeed selling well enough, but there are usually a few around wherever you go these days (well, it has been out a while...)...
if we are to believe you, what does that mean any way? A product that is selling briskly and being restocked regularly will be on the shelves. A product that doesn't sell at all, and is not being restocked, may not have any on the shelf. In other words, without that stores actual sales figures, making a snap judgment on just your observations offers no meaning what so ever.


Maybe you didn't read the news, but despite the much higher cost of the PS3 in Europe compared to Japan and the US, more PS3's sold in two days than XB360 sold in over a month following its launch.... yeah, they sure are sitting on shelves getting dusty from all the lack of demand. ;)


Look, I get it. Apparently you don't care much about high def, high fidelity, and/or high capacity movies and games. I know Duck has made it clear he is happy with his 27" non HDMI TV, and has said he wont likely be replacing it for the next five years. However, judging by the sales of HDTVs over the last ten years, and sales of PS3's over the last four months, clearly many people do.
 
Please list all the content available on XBL in March of 2003 (more than year after the Xbox was launched, and four months after XBL was launched)?
Not possible, the original Xbox didn't have a complete unified Marketplace to actually tally things up with.

How about a list of all the content available on XBL in March of 2006 (three years after XBL launch, and four months after the XB360 launch)?
Can't do that as well (need time traveling machine first), but I do know there were many more demos and trailers.
PSN is only four months old and already available in over 50 countries (if Wikipedia is correct, XBL is currently available in only 37 countries).
That 4-month-old excuse doesn't hold. Remember, the PS2 had an online system... but it sucked worse than a 7-year-old Hoover. Theoretically, MS and Sony had the same amount of time to develop their online systems, but Sony didn't manage their time efficiently. If they did, XBL and PSN would be about neck and neck. Sony is catching up pretty quickly, though.
PSN already has over 125 different downloadable content, including:
  • 10 Games +some additional ADD-ON game packages
  • 15 Game Demos
  • Over three hours of trailers, clips, and behind the scenes videos, most of which are available in 1080p
And going back to April of last year, I can assure you XBL had at least 3 times as much content. I can't give you the exact things (I'm not that resourceful, you know ;)), however.
The PS Stores are very easy to navigate through, and they always place the most recently added files on the very first page. Now that there is background downloading as well as the ability to download multiple files, even from multiple accounts accessing files from different regional PS Stores, I'd say the PSN is in fact quite impressive... especially considering its only been four months for crying out loud.
"Easy to navigate"? It's slow, unresponsive, and annoying to navigate.

Example, let's say I'm looking at the Genji clothes packs, and I want to download the Click Blu-ray trailer. Instead of pressing O to go back to the index quickly, the only easy way is to go out of the store and enter it again.

The problem with the Store is that its Web based... a big no no, in my opinion. If it was usable natively on the PS3 (like with the Marketplace), things would go a lot faster.

The real killer of the Store to me is the lack of 3rd party demos... the MLB 2K7 and Def Jam demos took weeks after the 360 demos of said games to be available to download (did I spit that out right?). Other demos like for Virtua Tennis 3, Madden 07, NBA Street, and such are nowhere to be found.
At this rate, and with Home coming online in the near future, I’d say PSN is not only an excellent feature as it stands right now, but looks to be developing at a much more rapid pace than XBL ever did.

especially if they want to model games in 1080p.. and at 60fps!
While I think 60FPS is a necessity (unless you have excellent motion blur ala Motorstorm), I think all these devs working for 1080p is a pissing contest. Instead of trying to get a crisper image, I'd prefer if they tried adding more to the game's elements... like textures, lighting, physics, and more.
Yes, yes, and more. Support for 7 wireless controllers, SACD, XMB, Bluetooth, four USB 2.0 ports, Gigabit Ethernet port, support for Linux, Ubuntu, Fedora Core 5, Gentoo, Debian, Yellow Dog, and other OS, among other things.
1. How many games would actually have 7-player support? My guess: not many, if any (I'm a poet and didn't know it!).

2. Until Sony actually allows you to access the XMB in game, Dashboard > XMB.

3. Gentoo and YDL are the only distros that officially support the PS3 (maybe Fedora Core as well, not sure). Ubuntu requires a degree in rocket science (yes, I'm exaggerating, but please laugh! :lol:), and Debian? I doubt it's officially supported either.

I agree with SACD and Bluetooth, though.

if we are to believe you, what does that mean any way? A product that is selling briskly and being restocked regularly will be on the shelves. A product that doesn't sell at all, and is not being restocked, may not have any on the shelf. In other words, without that stores actual sales figures, making a snap judgment on just your observations offers no meaning what so ever.
If you look at the February NPD numbers, the PS3 sold 127,000. The 360? 250,000 or so. The Wii did 400,000. GameBoy Advance? 135,000. The PS3 isn't selling as briskly as you think. It's selling slowly because of the lack of must-have exclusive games and the price. Of course, Europe is a different story, but Japan isn't much different. The 360 of course is sitting on shelves, but the Wii is outselling the PS3 practically 4-to-1. Then again, they are Japan...

So, just to sum up the whole XBL vs PSN debate... XBLM > PS Store. PSN Free Online > XBL pay-$4-a-month online. In general, XBL > PSN.

Things will probably have changed a year from now, though.
 
Playstation Store's front end will change in the future and will also be integrated into PS Home.

XBL is free you pay to play online anytime. I wouldn't say XBL is better just because it has more content, I mean no one is going to spend $1000 on gamer pics and themes. To me PSN isn't anything like XBl at the moment. The network keeps u in contact with friends and has separate components and its not even complete yet.
Missing components:

PS Home- Pretty much endless possibilities
PS Connect- Purchase music , movies and maybe TV shows.
Full integration of PSN in the Operating System for cross gaming msg and chat like what was promised at E306.

The demos are coming along ok. 3rd party demos may not come out in large doses for unknown reasons but they are coming now. I dont think its bad for just a few months out.

By the way I read the PS3 is selling at a better rate than the 360 did when it was new. So i dont understand this whole PS3 not selling well thing. I'll say it again PS3 is doing pretty damn well for a $600 system.
 
Duċk;2618244
Not possible, the original Xbox didn't have a complete unified Marketplace to actually tally things up with.
Exactly.


Can't do that as well (need time traveling machine first), but I do know there were many more demos and trailers.
You "know" but you have no proof... where have I heard that record played before? ;)


That 4-month-old excuse doesn't hold. Remember, the PS2 had an online system...
Apples & Oranges. Sony didn't have a network community, it just had servers for allowing players to play online.


Theoretically, MS and Sony had the same amount of time to develop their online systems, but Sony didn't manage their time efficiently. If they did, XBL and PSN would be about neck and neck. Sony is catching up pretty quickly, though.
100% Agreed, its like how Sony dropped the ball on MP3 players, and Microsoft dropped the ball on internet browsers... both had to play catch-up.


And going back to April of last year, I can assure you XBL had at least 3 times as much content. I can't give you the exact things (I'm not that resourceful, you know ;)), however.
The fact that you are the most resourceful person on GTP that I know of when it comes to finding information, I would say you have made my point quite easily. :D


"Easy to navigate"? It's slow, unresponsive, and annoying to navigate.
You must have some problems with your connection then, as it took me les than 2 minutes to:
  • Log in with my UK account
  • Go to the UK PS Store
  • Select three movie trailers from Fox for background downloading
  • Leave the store
  • Sign off my UK account
  • Sing on with my US account
  • Go to the US PS Store
  • And select the game demo for MLB 2K7 for download.


The real killer of the Store to me is the lack of 3rd party demos... the MLB 2K7 and Def Jam demos took weeks after the 360 demos of said games to be available to download (did I spit that out right?). Other demos like for Virtua Tennis 3, Madden 07, NBA Street, and such are nowhere to be found.
And I'll bet the same was true if not more so for XBL... besides.. its only been four months.


While I think 60FPS is a necessity (unless you have excellent motion blur ala Motorstorm), I think all these devs working for 1080p is a pissing contest. Instead of trying to get a crisper image, I'd prefer if they tried adding more to the game's elements... like textures, lighting, physics, and more.
All of which will require more disc space... where does that leave XB360 users?


If you look at the February NPD numbers, the PS3 sold 127,000. The 360? 250,000 or so. The Wii did 400,000. GameBoy Advance? 135,000. The PS3 isn't selling as briskly as you think. It's selling slowly because of the lack of must-have exclusive games and the price. Of course, Europe is a different story, but Japan isn't much different. The 360 of course is sitting on shelves, but the Wii is outselling the PS3 practically 4-to-1. Then again, they are Japan...
and represent the second largest market for sales of console hardware & software... but that's besides the point.

The point is that the PS3's are selling, even in the US. They have already reached sales of close to 3 million consoles world wide, despite only being released outside of Asia-Pac and North America over the last week. PS3's have and continue to be drastically outselling the XB360 everywhere but in the US, and as you say, as more games are released, this could easily change in the US as well.

Furthermore, I was addressing the notion that by observing consoles sitting on a shelf in no way implies how well they are in fact selling.

So, just to sum up the whole XBL vs PSN debate... XBLM > PS Store. PSN Free Online > XBL pay-$4-a-month online. In general, XBL > PSN.
I actually agree.


Things will probably have changed a year from now, though.
I agree with that as well... whew... nice to find some common ground with you once in a while. ;)









Playstation Store's front end will change in the future and will also be integrated into PS Home.

XBL is free you pay to play online anytime. I wouldn't say XBL is better just because it has more content, I mean no one is going to spend $1000 on gamer pics and themes. To me PSN isn't anything like XBl at the moment. The network keeps u in contact with friends and has separate components and its not even complete yet.
Missing components:

PS Home- Pretty much endless possibilities
PS Connect- Purchase music , movies and maybe TV shows.
Full integration of PSN in the Operating System for cross gaming msg and chat like what was promised at E306.

The demos are coming along ok. 3rd party demos may not come out in large doses for unknown reasons but they are coming now. I dont think its bad for just a few months out.
All very good points LaBounti.


By the way I read the PS3 is selling at a better rate than the 360 did when it was new. So i dont understand this whole PS3 not selling well thing. I'll say it again PS3 is doing pretty damn well for a $600 system.
Precisely. In fact, in Europe they are paying close to $1,000 USD for their PS3's... and yet broke all of XB360 European launch sales, and in just two days have sold more PS3's than XB360's sold in more than a month. Go figure.

If you were to believe what you read from some XB users, PS3 are just sitting on shelves collecting dust. :rolleyes:
 
Duċk;2532234
And I'd laugh my butt off if the HDD as a stand-alone is more than $120.
I was wondering if Duck has lost his butt from laughter yet. ;)

In any case, I'm much more in favor of the Sony PS3 system than the M$ 360 one. Oh, but you do get an HDMI cable with the 360 Elite. Wii...
 
Is anyone else old enough to remember being at school and listening to your classmates arguing "My Megadrive is better than your stupid SNES!" "Nuh-huh! Nintendo are cool and Sega suck!". Boy this takes me back! :)


KM.
 
Is anyone else old enough to remember being at school and listening to your classmates arguing "My Megadrive is better than your stupid SNES!" "Nuh-huh! Nintendo are cool and Sega suck!". Boy this takes me back! :)


KM.


I was really young back then , but I did exactly the same as what I did back then , I just got both :D

I bought my PS3 last week :D, stops me from getting into arguments like this
 
Precisely. In fact, in Europe they are paying close to $1,000 USD for their PS3's... and yet broke all of XB360 European launch sales, and in just two days have sold more PS3's than XB360's sold in more than a month. Go figure.
What makes said figure truly remarkable was that Sony refused to sell the 20 gig in Europe.
That being said, something just doesn't feel right about the Elite. I want to knock it for being overpriced and useless, but it seems like it actually may be a good deal. The only major thing I can think up against it is the lack of HD-DVD drive (barring its price similarities to the PS3), which I personally feel is retarded.
However, with the failing of the add-on drive in 32X-like proportions, I'm sure Microsoft doesn't want to release their own version of the Sega CDX.
 
Look, I get it. Apparently you don't care much about high def, high fidelity, and/or high capacity movies and games. I know Duck has made it clear he is happy with his 27" non HDMI TV, and has said he wont likely be replacing it for the next five years. However, judging by the sales of HDTVs over the last ten years, and sales of PS3's over the last four months, clearly many people do.

...It isn't that I don't care, its more along the lines that I haven't noticed an incredible difference between a lot of the content I had seen at 1080p, 1080i, 720p, etc. Maybe my eyes or bad, or maybe it was where I was sitting in relationship to the TV, but I just didn't see the difference with anything between the PS3 and the 360...

And, I did buy that HDTV to take a greater advantage of my 360 (plus, I wanted Discovery HD, pretty!), but I wasn't focused on specs alone. My parents are refusing to buy one, as are most people I know, simply because they haven't noticed the differences in picture and 'how it would help them watch television,' and to some extent I completely understand...

...Not everyone is knowledgeable about technology, and although my knowledge and my stance on most of it would appear to be limited, I'm skeptical of everyone and the format they offer, but thus far, I've noted that the 360 does a better job at grabbing the 'average' market of folks who don't want to drive head-first into the outrageous HD market.

I dunno. I respect your opinions, and I can certainly see your point in a lot of them. But at least for me, and most of the people I know, the 360 is more than enough. Sure, the extra features are great on the PS3, but the higher price, the lack of 'gotta-have-it' games, the love it/hate it online service, among many other things has kept people away...

...I think most of us who have been playing games for a while know that Sony will eventually pull-ahead of Microsoft in nearly every concieveable way, but given the start that we've had thus far, doubt runs rampant among most people in the gaming community outside of the die-hard Sony fans...

At least from where I stand, I'd like to see what the PS3 does after HOME makes its debut, and we get through the Christmas season here in the US. With the Wii looking like an outrageously unexpected contender, the 360 still moving strong, and the PS3 doing its slow-to-start fundings, anything is possible...

I'm in no need to argue though. A good conversation is always fun...
 
Great post YSSMAN, and I do understand where you are coming from, and how sincere you are in your assessments. 👍

I also agree there are a lot of excellent reasons why the XB360 has been doing so well, and will undoubtedly continue to do well, and thus I also understand its success and recognize why for many, it is an excellent choice.

I still think things may change in a relatively short period of time, but I agree, as much as Sony could really revolutionize online gaming, it could just as easily really screw up. In addition, MS has the ability to also reposition the XB360, or some version of it as well as improve their already well designed XBL to more than keep up with what the PS3 can do. However, one thing I think we can all agree on is that, what Sony and Microsoft "can" do is not always what they "will" do. ;)

Like you said, we will have to wait and see, and I agree, in about a year’s time we should have a much better idea in what direction both Sony and Microsoft are headed in regards to securing future success by creating desirable online communities and offering games their customers really want, presented to them in the way they really want.
 
Um, more Zep vs Who, but I get the point. ;)
Heh! Pearl Jam vs. Nirvana I remember.

The only thing I can see the Xbox360 really missing out with is the lack of a higher capacity disk drive. If and when the PS3 starts to really sell, how many game developers will release some games exclusively on PS3 because they take really need 25Gb+ of space and there's nothing they can do to fit the same game on a 7Gb disc? All the other bells and whistles - HDMI, ultramega high fidelity surround sound, etc. I don't care about and don't have the hardware to take advantage of anyway.

Anyway, in a year or three, if the price comes down significantly, I'll probably end up buying a PS3 to go alongside my Xbox360.


KM.
 
Heh! Pearl Jam vs. Nirvana I remember.

The only thing I can see the Xbox360 really missing out with is the lack of a higher capacity disk drive. If and when the PS3 starts to really sell, how many game developers will release some games exclusively on PS3 because they take really need 25Gb+ of space and there's nothing they can do to fit the same game on a 7Gb disc? All the other bells and whistles - HDMI, ultramega high fidelity surround sound, etc. I don't care about and don't have the hardware to take advantage of anyway.

Anyway, in a year or three, if the price comes down significantly, I'll probably end up buying a PS3 to go alongside my Xbox360.


KM.
Well, there's three scenarios with this:

1. Call of Duty 5: The Vietnam War requires 13GB of disc space. Since it's a linear game, you could essentially put the content that didn't fit on the first DVD on a second DVD.

2. Midnight Club 4: Pimp My Ride edition has three cities and a massive online multiplayer mode. It takes up 32GB of disc space. What you essentially could do is put one city on a disc, and put the online component in a 4th disc.

3. Elder Scrolls 5: Something takes up 21GB of disc space. Since it's a non-linear, open world game (and therefore won't be able to put in three discs without many problems), it will have to stay PC and PS3 exclusive.

Note, I'm not saying that I think CoD5 will take up 13GB of space and whatnot, I'm just using them as placeholders.

I doubt we'll see any general strain on disc capacity until at least mid-2008, but it's going to happen. What could MS do? They could use HD-DVD games (or even Blu-ray games, as they have already said that they'll support BD if it wins). Another option is to suck it up for a year or so, and release the Xbox 720 in late 2009. If the 360's sales are pitiful, they'll drop it (the 360) like a hot potato and move on to the 720. If they're actually good – and I wouldn't doubt that at all – they'll keep it around. A third option would to be just suck it up until it's time for Next Gen.


My 2¢.
 
So the only benefit from HDMI is being able to say you have it hooked up via HDMI. I don't see HDMI1.2 being a problem if it(360) can't decode hd audio. It's the cheap route because its the only route.
 
Duċk;2619384
Long post short, the 360 Elite uses HDMI 1.2... and it doesn't support 5.1 PCM, "DD+" (whatever the hell that means), TrueHD, etc.

That's a bit of a shame, but I guess any system that would really benefit from HDMI 1.3 would most likely have a dedicated surround processor with at least one optical input anyway. Anyone hooking the X360 straight to a TV will get stereo, which is all any TV can be expected to do.

The one shortcoming that may be up for debate is v1.3's Deep Color, which the PS3 will have. That means even on the same calibrated display with the same game, the PS3 will have better color and color detail.
 
Not official, but neither were the early reports on the Elite 360 model, which Microsoft was quick to deny:


Toshiba Working With Microsoft On New Entertainment Xbox
Posted on 19/10/2007 by David Richards
Microsoft, according to insiders at Toshiba owner of the HD DVD patents, claim that Microsoft is working on a brand new Xbox that will incorporate not only a new HD DVD drive but a large hard drive and new entertainment software that is a spin off from its struggling media centre offering.

The device is being developed in response to the PS3 driving sales of games software and Blu-ray content in several countries. A recent Sony Brand Wave study conducted in five countries including the UK, Australia, France Germany and Spain revealed that a key reason that consumers are buying a PS3 is because it includes a Blu-ray player.

Recent GFK research reveals that the recently launched Xbox 360 HD DVD attach player is not selling well. Another factor that impacted early sales of the Xbox 360 was that Microsoft failed to include a HDMI port - omitted because Microsoft wanted to cut down the costs of the console in an effort to compete up against the PS3.

The new Xbox device, while allowing for extensive gaming capability, will be positioned as an entertainment hub that includes gaming and extensive wireless networking capability as well as 1080p playback. There is also talk of it including a dual HD TV tuner and EPG capability and a docking port for an MP3 player. For Toshiba, the device is critical if it is to be successful in beating Sony and the Blu-ray promoters.

Also being discussed is the development of an open standard docking port similar to the 17 pin iPod port. This would allow all manufacturers to use the same port for docking.

A senior Toshiba executive in Singapore told SmartHouse that "An Xbox with a built in HD DVD drive is critical. They and we are working on it. It also has to be more than a gaming machine. Microsoft recognizes this. A version of the device may also be sold under the Toshiba brand name".

Scott Browning, the Marketing Director of JB HiFi Australia's second largest consumer electronics retailer said, "The device is a lay down mis`ere and essential for the HD DVD camp. We are told that one is coming. The PS3 has been extremely successful for Sony in getting Blu-ray off the ground and for Microsoft, the omission of a built in HD DVD player is set to hurt sales going forward as consumers are aware that the PS3 comes with a Blu-ray player."

Both Toshiba and Microsoft have also explored the possibility of a new open standard chassis system that allows an Xbox to be slotted into a HD TV screen over 40-inch. The open standard bays will allow hard drives to be upgraded and expanded similar to the way that users can upgrade the hard drive on a PC.

Another big problem for Microsoft according to insiders is getting the heat and noise output from the current Xbox 360 under control so that the new device can run silently while a movie is being played. It is known that Toshiba has been working with Microsoft on this issue as it has extensive experience in notebooks and "quiet" drives. Currently most iPods incorporate a Toshiba drive.

Another benefit for Microsoft in moving to a new Xbox platform is that it can introduce new components that are less likely to fail. Currently the PS3 has a failure rate of under two percent. Recently Microsoft was forced to allow for a $1.3 billion charge against warranty claims following reports of up to a 30 percent failure rate of the original Xbox 360.

The new device is expected to be released late in 2008 or at the 2009 CES show in Las Vegas.

If true, it's a double edged sword. Yes, it has the features that were lacking in the previous 360's that will go a long way to improve the long term value, but for the current 12 million owners, it will mean they will be shut out of any games released in the future on HD DVD, as well as other exclusive features designed for this new Xbox.

This may also be met with some apprehension by game developers, knowing that their 360 customer base is going to be split once again. They have to understand that most 360 owners do not have a very large HDD or HDMI, and some with no HDD at all, and now, if the story is true, some will have the ability to play HD DVD games.

This is really going to complicate the development process and the decisions developer's will have to make when deciding on how to make a game for the 360.

If you have a 360 with no HDD you already are shut out of adding downloadable content for your games, and those with the standard 20GB HDD they are limited by how much content they can have stored on their HDD, for about 10 million owners, they also may be shutout from playing 1080p games unless they have a display that accepts 1080p via VGA, which many do not. Now should this new model come out, only those with this new Xbox will be able to play games on HD DVD.

From a technical standpoint, I think it's a good move on Microsoft's point. It also gives Microsoft the opportunity to come up with an entirely new design and hopefully one that won't have the same severe reliability problems their current models are suffering from.

The bad news is this may alienate their current customer base, similarly to what happened when Microsoft abandoned the original Xbox.

Overall, I think this is a good move, and a move they had to make. Financially Microsoft has lost billions of dollars on the Xbox and 360, and with continual reliability issues, and a console that simply was not designed to last or to support even today's current optical disc standards, they either were going to have to come out with a new Xbox now, or probably just pull out of the hardware business and focus all their efforts on publishing highly profitable games for multiple platforms.

At the very least, this should be something worth keeping an eye on, and it will be very interesting to see how Microsoft responds to this story.
 
I sort of disagree with D-N, because I don't think this is a good move for Microsoft.

Toshiba executive is quoted as saying that an Xbox with a built in HD DVD drive is critical. I disagree with this as well. New X360 model with HD DVD capability is going to help the HD DVD sales as much as the X360's add-on HD DVD player did. Not enough. And for X360, this can arguably do more damage than good. I think most of us agree with D-N that this move will indeed alienate the millions of current X360 owners.

At least for Microsoft, I think they are better off speeding up the release of the next Xbox, improving on its' design(*cough*reliability*cough*). Historically, sales wise, attempts in upgrading current gen consoles have not gone well.

Just one way that I can think of this making sense for Microsoft; convincing the X360 owners to buy this upgraded X360 over PS3.
 
I don't think this is a good move for Microsoft..

I agree. It is obvious that MS can not utilize HD-DVDs for gaming use beacuse current 360 users are not willing to buy HD-DVD-drive to play new games. So if they want compete with bluray as gaming media, MS has to build new XBOX(720)with new HW to make HD-dvd gaming successive monetary(720 comes sometimes anyways to compete with PS console releases) and also among players.

So we are left with HD-DVD movie use. HD-DVD-players are not exactly expensive, so no need to buy built-in player with XBOX.(MS logo won't also help sales).

Of course with right price you can sell anything, but i think it won't be less than elite anyways.(think about current HD-DVD-player prices)
 
Well, I will have to see how this plays out before I decide on getting a 360 now. I have been holding off on it because I needed it to be WiFi. If they throw in an HD DVD drive I will be very pleased.

My only question would be how much support Microsoft will throw behind this since it will be under a Toshiba brand?

I am curious about Toshiba too. They seem to be playing for both teams in developing HD DVD for/with Microsoft and now taking over Cell Chip production for/with Sony. I have this vision of cell chip processors in a PC with an HD DVD drive.


And is there any way that Microsoft can do a firmware upgrade on current 360s to support HD DVD games on the external player or will it require separate laser?
 
And is there any way that Microsoft can do a firmware upgrade on current 360s to support HD DVD games on the external player or will it require separate laser?
From what I've heard, it's the way the 360 is built that simply prevents it from using game data stored on anything but the internal drive.. I have no links or anything to prove my point - But if I am correct (which I'm fairly sure I am), a FW upgrade will do exactly zilch for 1st gen 360 boxes...
 
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