Yet *another* Model of 360

[YSSMAN]

Its hard to know what exactly to think I suppose. On the one hand, I really like the idea of having a Toshiba/Microsoft all-in-one entertainment box (particularly the part about the HDTV tuner built-in). The problem is, people like me who were early adopters with the 360 (or at least in my case, just replaced the original with a Halo 3 Ed) are going to be left out in the cold with the ever-increasing changes proposed.

The problem here is that I'm not certain why they're going to change. The Wii has been literally destroying the 360 in sales due to its simplicity and its ease of use for everyone, and both the 360 and the Wii obliterating the PS3 mainly on the issue of price and games people want to play (As I recall, Sony sold fewer than 120K PS3s last month). So while the PS3 does offer many of these things that Toshiba/Microsoft wish to incorporate, its a thin line to walk on when deciding to make a new box.

Would I buy one?

Maybe. The price would have to be right, and I'd have to have a damn-good reason to want to trade in the new box I just got.

Am I really worried about it?

Not really. The rumors keep flying, but at the very least it seems like they're open to ideas that fans shoot at them. I've got a PC to do the digital media integration, and thats fine by me, and I've got a box to play games... And they'll talk to each other, which is fine too.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

and both the 360 and the Wii obliterating the PS3 mainly on the issue of price and games people want to play (As I recall, Sony sold fewer than 120K PS3s last month).

You didn't recall correctly (either that or you were only considering US sales, which before Halo 3 came out, even in the states the PS3 outsold the 360 over the same period of time), nor are you correct about the 360 obliterating the PS3, not even in the US, and certainly not at all in world wide sales. In fact, if price was as important as you suggest, then the PS3 outside of the US would not be outselling the 360 on a regular basis despite costing far more than what we pay here.

If you are only looking at total numbers since launch, that is also misleading, as perhaps you forgot the 360 came out a year before the PS3 and Wii?

The simple fact, that many biased 360 supporters seem to ignore, is that the PS3 is selling at nearly the exact same pace as the 360 since their launches, and the Wii is selling close to the same pace as the PS2 when compared to their launch dates.

Comparing world wide console sales rates since the 360, PS3, and Wii were released, it's remarkable how closely the PS3 is tracking along the same sales rate as the 360... of course Nintendo is dancing to an entirely different tune (Dance Mario Bros.)

The Wii sales rate is remarkable and apparently close to the PS2 sales rates. I think it was Duck that said it took Sony just two years to sell 25 million PS2's, but I can't recall the exact quote.

However, I have a hard time believing the Wii is going to have the kind of longevity that the PS2 has enjoyed and amazingly is still selling very well for a seven year old console.


Regardless, for all the bad press Sony has gotten in the past over sales, it's interesting to see that they seem to be right on pace with the 360... although compared to PS2 and Wii sales rates, I'm sure both Microsoft and Sony are very disappointed, and would certainly love to see things improve.

So while I am very interested in hearing your opinions, please try to and stop making so many gross exaggerations when ever you post "facts" on these consoles, as it not only can mislead people, but it makes your opinion seem far less reasonable and distracts from the points and opinion that you are attempting to share.

Thanks.

 

[YSSMAN]

The story I had read was on US sales of the three consoles, so I'm sorry I didn't take into consideration the rest of the world (really, there is something outside of the United States?). I was taking my data from this GameSpot article, which took into consideration September sales from the US.. Now considering that the United States is in fact the largest gaming market in the world, the data does prove somewhat important, but as you have shown, the PS3 is doing better than it used to. As I've said before, more games (I hear new Ratchet game is good) and a lower price will help, but its been a long road to get where we are today, and along the same lines, to get the PS3 to follow the same track the PS2 was on.

Either way, I'm attempting to be as objective as I can be, but the data has shown that the Wii and 360 (at least in the US) are winning out due to lower prices and better selections of games. Don't get me wrong, I'll be in line for a PS3 when GT5 comes out, but thats still a long way off...

 

[Maven]

Would I buy one?

Maybe. The price would have to be right, and I'd have to have a damn-good reason to want to trade in the new box I just got.

Ah, don't try to kid yourself, we know you will.

Of course, this kinda shoots down the idea of the Xbox being the 'bargain deal'. Which would you prefer, the machine that costs $400 that you'll have to replace every three or four years, or the $600 one that'll be guaranteed to be around for at least 6 years.

I've been saying for a long time that the 360 will not last until 2010 and it might even have been that Microsoft planned it that way (not that they'd admit it). The most likely prospect is that MS will offer credit towards the NextBox when you trade in your 360.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its fairly similar to what I would expect as well. At the very least they've been "nice" about the updates thing, but I still find it questionable as to how quickly this would be addressed as something they'd actually do. Given the current 5-7 year cycle for the consoles, 2010/2011 seems like a reasonable time to release this "NextBox," really any time before it seems a bit too early.

Then there is that whole thing with the Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, in which there are no winners, and therefore, I refuse to take a side (no joke)...

 

[FoolKiller]

Either way, I'm attempting to be as objective as I can be, but the data has shown that the Wii and 360 (at least in the US) are winning out due to lower prices and better selections of games. Don't get me wrong, I'll be in line for a PS3 when GT5 comes out, but thats still a long way off...

The Wii has a better selection of games? Surely you mean larger selection. If there are better games out there for the Wii than the PS3 then I must have missed them trying to sift through mini game collections 1 through 1000. To date I can only think of three or four Wii exclusive titles worth having and a hanful of others that are announced.

The true success to the Wii is not their better selection of games but the fact that it is an over-priced cell phone with over-priced casual games designed for anyone to play, so regular gamers wind up fighting Grandma Jones off for the last Wii in Wal*Mart.

 

[Joey D]

The Wii has a better selection of games? Surely you mean larger selection. If there are better games out there for the Wii than the PS3 then I must have missed them trying to sift through mini game collections 1 through 1000. To date I can only think of three or four Wii exclusive titles worth having and a hanful of others that are announced.

The true success to the Wii is not their better selection of games but the fact that it is an over-priced cell phone with over-priced casual games designed for anyone to play, so regular gamers wind up fighting Grandma Jones off for the last Wii in Wal*Mart.

There aren't a ton of exclusive PS3 games out either and frankly I personally feel that many of the ones that are out are rather meh. I was disappointed with the F1 game as well as Motorstorm. The section of games for the Wii is weak, I won't deny that but the Wii isn't designed as a sit on your ass and screw around system, it's more of a party system.

I still feel in the US the Xbox 360 has the best selection of games out currently, although I foresee the PS3 making a run for it in the near future...at least I hope so.

 

[FoolKiller]

There aren't a ton of exclusive PS3 games out either and frankly I personally feel that many of the ones that are out are rather meh. I was disappointed with the F1 game as well as Motorstorm. The section of games for the Wii is weak, I won't deny that but the Wii isn't designed as a sit on your ass and screw around system, it's more of a party system.

I know the Wii is designed as a party game, and good party games are fine. I love Wii Play, but the shovelware that is being dished out is inexcusable. At least the PS3 titles that aren't good are just because it is early on and this is typical. Games like Lair obviously had a ton of development time put into them and the failure was the developer's inability to determine how a new control scheme would go over.

On the Wii the developers have easily judged that their audience is the brainless point, waggle, and click crowd and are handing them heaps of that at $30-$40 a pop. No one has a really good chance to judge attempts at innovative controls because no one is trying. At least on the PS3 devs are trying to be ground breaking.

And as of right now there isn't a single game on the Wii that can compete with Warhawk in my book.

I still feel in the US the Xbox 360 has the best selection of games out currently, although I foresee the PS3 making a run for it in the near future...at least I hope so.

Well, that's a given as the 360 is easier to program for as it is just a dedicated form of Windows, has been out a year longer, and developers have had time to play with the system. The first extremely high quality games for PS3 will be coming out in the next year or two, I believe. I mean, if you look at the 360 its two arguably best titles came out in the past few months.


And it seems as if the game that I feel it is safe to assume is the most anticipated PS3 game on this board will be out in roughly the same time frame as Halo 3, maybe a bit longer, but the GT series requires a bit more work.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

There aren't a ton of exclusive PS3 games out either

Just as many if not more than were released on the 360 in it's first year. Besides all the exclusive games, the PS3 is hardly short on titles that have already been released.

I personally feel that many of the ones that are out are rather meh. I was disappointed with the F1 game as well as Motorstorm.

Well one can't argue with how someone "feels". Some people don't like ice cream, doesn't make them wrong... although certainly in the minority... and based on sales and discussions, many feel quite differently then yourself, and like you they also aren't wrong.

Your "taste" in games seem to be more console related than actually game related. In fact, I think you were saying in another thread, and understandably so, you were preferring 360 games because your friends mostly play online using the 360. Nothing wrong with that, but that isn't a poor reflection on the quality of PS3 games, it's just indicative of your particular situation.

I still feel in the US the Xbox 360 has the best selection of games out currently,

Again, that's a subjective opinion, but even objectively, the 360 does have the largest game library (if you ignore all PS2 games that play on the PS3 of course) although again, this is because it's been out a year longer, and to be quite frank, let us not forget that Microsoft killed the Xbox, and so many of the first year games on the 360 were nothing more than ported Xbox games that were still in development... So if you are going to count those, then you might as well count some of the 2006 PS2 titles. I'm just saying...

I think you'll find if you go back and look at threads and discussions in the 360 forum back in 2006 the constant complaint was how bad most of the games were, or how they showed little change from equivalent Xbox games... and how many were waiting for Halo 3.

I foresee the PS3 making a run for it in the near future...at least I hope so.

No need to hope. Sony have a larger list of exclusive game releases among their huge list of PS3 games scheduled for release this year and in 2008, including some very high profile games, like:

• Gran Turismo 5 Prologue
• Haze
• SingStar
• SOCOM: Confrontation
• Time Crisis 4
• Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
• Coded Arms: Assault
• DC Universe
• Final Fantasy XIII (followed by Final Fantasy Versus XIII)
• God of War III
• Gran Turismo 5
• Infamous
• Jak and Daxter: The Lost Frontier
• Killzone 2
• LittleBigPlanet
• Metal Gear Online
• Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
• MotorStorm 2
• Resistance 2
• Tekken 6
• Unreal Tournament 3 (timed exclusive)
• Valkyrie of the Battlefield: Gallian Chronicles

Among others, as well as several big projects planned for 2009, including Rockstar's mammoth L.A. Noire, and the yet to be announced new exclusive franchise... which may still be the rumored GTA style Batman game.

And of course the current and future PSN games are not in short order either, some of which are arguably better received than some full 360 games, and a good deal less expensive.

What has a lot of people scratching their heads is where are all the 360 game announcements from Microsoft? As they have been canceling appearances at one game show after another:

When I saw this I had to do a double take...

Well, Tokyo Game Show 2007 is turning out to be completely pathetic. Can someone give me a hug? :/

Why the double take? Well besides all the interesting pre-show news, and keynote presentation... Duck posted this on 9/20 at 12:14pm +0900 (JST) - that's just two hours after the show opened. TGS runs through Sunday, so it seems rather premature to be making that kind of "assessment" after just two hours, and seems to be without clearly knowing what has already been discussed, which has been more than previous game conferences over the same period of time.

Perhaps Duck's disappointment is that once again Microsoft has little in the way of announcements at TGS this year:

Microsoft To Japan: 'We Got Nothing'
Posted on September 12, 2007 by Chris Kohler

At E3 2005, Microsoft filled the front rows of their press conference with shills, audience plants who hooted and hollered and applauded the arrival of the Xbox 360. I thought they'd learned their lesson, but they did it again at this year's Tokyo Game Show press conference.

This time, at least, they put them in the back. They were Xbox Live community members from Japan, ostensibly. And on cue, they hooted, hollered, and applauded in a very, very un-Japanese manner. Almost as if they were asked to. This is a country who goes to professional wrestling matches and sits there in stony-faced silence.

Anyway, Microsoft's latest plan to win Japan seems to be exactly the same strategy that has done wonders for them before: RPGs. With Final Fantasy XIII a very long way away for PlayStation 3, Microsoft is trying to build the ultimate platform for turn-based role-playing games. Last Remnant! Lost Odyssey! Infinite Undiscovery! The three of them start to all run together after a while, honestly.

And that's about it. Taking a cue from Microsoft's E3 conference, they didn't actually announce many new products. Certainly Ninja Gaiden II will do well worldwide. And Rez? Rez. That's never a bad thing. But other than that, Japanese developers -- besides the few that Microsoft has specifically spent the last year or so courting -- have run from the Xbox 360. And the ones who are there are just producing the same kinds of games that haven't worked in the past.

If Microsoft really wants to tap into Japan's desires, they need to create unique, original software that reaches a broader audience. I was hoping to see some spark of ingenuity at this briefing, and the closest they came to that was announcing new controllers that happen to be the same color as the Nintendo DS.

As long as Microsoft keeps sticking to the exact same strategy, Xbox 360 will continue to sell a statistically insignificant amount of consoles in Japan.

This seems to be a strange trend for Microsoft lately:

That's because the last time MS unveiled an '08 title was at X06 nearly a year ago. Sony has unveiled many games this year for both '07 and '08 (Killzone 2, GT5, LBP, and Infamous to name a few), and there's still TGS, Leipzig, and another SGD event to go. And there's other games we know are in development they haven't officially unveiled yet (I'm talking about showing off what it all looks like now with videos and photos) MotorStorm 2, Socom 4, The Getaway, Eight Days, etc.

Likewise, MS has Leipzig, TGS, and their event in Europe to show off whatever Rare has been working on. If they pull an E3 and we don't see many new things for 360 this year, then yes, the PS3 has more games coming out in '08.

Just for clarification...


Microsoft Cancels X07 Event
Posted on 7/19/2007 9:11:00 AM by Staff of Tradeshow Week

Microsoft officials confirmed that X07, a European event usually held in late September, was canceled. The event was established in 2001 and often was used to make big announcements for the upcoming year on Xbox 360 and Xbox Live, including new game titles. A company spokesman has said Microsoft will try to find another venue to talk about the 2008 lineup, possibly the Leipzig Games Convention or the Tokyo Games Show.

Well... MS cancelled their Leipzig conference. No game announcements today, nothing. 👎

When the heck are they going to show off some of their '08 titles? TGS? Surprise buttsex announcement?

O Microsoft, Microsoft! Wherefore art thou Microsoft?

I wonder if this is all part of Microsoft's plans for trimming their Xbox divisional expenses to minimize their ever growing financial losses?



Oh well, at least they will be enjoying a massive amount of publicity leading up to the launch of Halo 3 next week! 👍


Still, it can't be a great sign for Microsoft to start the gaming conference season off with a less than stellar E3 presentation and then cancel one show after another.

Regardless of how you "feel" about games, please, let's not drift so far off topic, and try and keep discussions that specifically relate to the new Xbox consoles.

Thanks. 👍

 

[Joey D]

Just as many if not more than were released on the 360 in it's first year. Besides all the exclusive games, the PS3 is hardly short on titles that have already been released.

I guess I just feel there was more out for the 360 for some reason. Not that they were better games, I just felt like there was more out.

Well one can't argue with how someone "feels". Some people don't like ice cream, doesn't make them wrong... although certainly in the minority... and based on sales and discussions, many feel quite differently then yourself, and like you they also aren't wrong.

Just on this forum or all over the place? I've seen some websites were people think x game is better on the 360 while others think its better on the PS3.

Your "taste" in games seem to be more console related than actually game related. In fact, I think you were saying in another thread, and understandably so, you were preferring 360 games because your friends mostly play online using the 360. Nothing wrong with that, but that isn't a poor reflection on the quality of PS3 games, it's just indicative of your particular situation.

I really prefer to play games on the PC as there is no real limitation to what can be done with them. There are also many user made mods that can simply be applied through a download.

But I just feel that there could be more PS3 exclusive games out, I mean I go into Best Buy and the PS3 game selection is less then half the size of the Wii's selection of games. I mean I don't expect it to be as big as the 360's selection but I would like to see a few more exclusive games.

No need to hope. Sony have a larger list of exclusive game releases among their huge list of PS3 games scheduled for release this year and in 2008, including some very high profile games, like:

• Gran Turismo 5 Prologue
• Haze
• SingStar
• SOCOM: Confrontation
• Time Crisis 4
• Coded Arms: Assault
• DC Universe
• Final Fantasy XIII (followed by Final Fantasy Versus XIII)
• God of War III
• Gran Turismo 5
• Infamous
• Jak and Daxter: The Lost Frontier
• Killzone 2
• LittleBigPlanet
• Metal Gear Online
• Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
• MotorStorm 2
• Resistance 2
• Tekken 6
• Unreal Tournament 3 (timed exclusive)
• Valkyrie of the Battlefield: Gallian Chronicles

Among others, as well as several big projects planned for 2009, including Rockstar's mammoth L.A. Noire, and the yet to be announced new exclusive franchise... which may still be the rumored GTA style Batman game.

I can foresee myself liking GT5, God of War III (which I am excited for) and Little Big Planet which also looks very cool. I don't know I'll just wait and see what happens.

 

[vectradriver]

PS3: So good developers are talking of leaving it all together. The FIA want to stop Sony's exclusivity on the F1 games too. All because PS3 has failed to set the world alight and they want more people to buy games with their license.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

PS3: So good developers are talking of leaving it all together. The FIA want to stop Sony's exclusivity on the F1 games too. All because PS3 has failed to set the world alight and they want more people to buy games with their license.

A) Besides being untrue, what does this have anything to do with this rumored new Xbox console?

B) By all means, please post the reliable and confirmed source from the FIA that says anything like what you are suggesting?

It never ceases to surprise me to see someone with a very obvious bias, but no actual facts to support it, so instead they just create their own "facts".

If you want to post false information, please do it somewhere else. Thanks.

 

[vectradriver]

That's funny DN, yours was the next reply after this in another thread on this forum.

"Sony had the exclusive F1 licence from 2003-2007 (this is the only accurate information and starting point of this theory).

Bernie Ecclestone was unhappy with the revenues and market-shrinkage due to not-so-well sales of PS3 and huge limitations of profit from sales due to "exclusivity". His guys at FIA also advised him not to sell the licence for next seasons to Microsoft, since it would again be "platform-exclusive".

And notice that this F1 season is the most intresting in last 10 years, while next one could even surpase this one. Not having a official F1 game for this and next season is just burning-your-own-house.

FIA made a secret approach to major multi-platform publishers with enough cash to pay licence fee. At the end Activision got the preliminary rights to F1 games-licence, but with obligation to find succesful developer with great recognition that can push the F1 game sales to old-times fame. From 1996 to 2001 F1 games were pretty much AAA-sales titles. Bizzare own "Formula 1" (1996) was the best-selling game in Europe and 2nd best-seling game WORLDWIDE for that year. It was surpased ONLY by Final Fantasy VII.

Activision then approached Bizzare (developers of legendary F1 games in times of PSone - Formula 1, Formula 1 '97) to make a F1 game for multiplatform next-gen."

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

That's funny DN, yours was the next reply after this in another thread on this forum.

No, what's funny is you assume someone's personal post, which even clearly states it's only a theory and massive specualtion, except for the part about Bernie... but even there offers no source to back it up - and thus may just as well also be mere speculation.

I suggest you Google search for any quote from Bernie Ecclestone that confirms what is said in that post. Good luck!


Now again, what's this got anything to do with this thread's topic???

Please go troll somewhere else! If you want to have a flame war, may I suggest you take it to www.TeamXbox.com and keep it as far away from here as possible. 👍

However, if you want to have a reasonable discussion on F1 licensing, and especially if you find this missing source, by all means post it in that thread with amar's post... where it belongs. Not here!

Thanks again.

 

[Kent]

That's funny DN, yours was the next reply after this in another thread on this forum.

"Sony had the exclusive F1 licence from 2003-2007 (this is the only accurate information and starting point of this theory).

Bernie Ecclestone was unhappy with the revenues and market-shrinkage due to not-so-well sales of PS3 and huge limitations of profit from sales due to "exclusivity". His guys at FIA also advised him not to sell the licence for next seasons to Microsoft, since it would again be "platform-exclusive".

And notice that this F1 season is the most intresting in last 10 years, while next one could even surpase this one. Not having a official F1 game for this and next season is just burning-your-own-house.

FIA made a secret approach to major multi-platform publishers with enough cash to pay licence fee. At the end Activision got the preliminary rights to F1 games-licence, but with obligation to find succesful developer with great recognition that can push the F1 game sales to old-times fame. From 1996 to 2001 F1 games were pretty much AAA-sales titles. Bizzare own "Formula 1" (1996) was the best-selling game in Europe and 2nd best-seling game WORLDWIDE for that year. It was surpased ONLY by Final Fantasy VII.

Activision then approached Bizzare (developers of legendary F1 games in times of PSone - Formula 1, Formula 1 '97) to make a F1 game for multiplatform next-gen."

I think he wanted you to link an original source since anyone can write a post with nearly any content here on the GTP... If I wanted to type out a post in bold print saying FIA had confirmed exclusivity with the 360 I could easily do so... Now providing a link to an original source- I couldn't do that.

 

[YSSMAN]

I thought there was a story about it on GameSpot or Autoblog (or was it both?) a while back... I do not recall.

But yes, certainly off-topic.

 

[FoolKiller]

PS3: So good developers are talking of leaving it all together. The FIA want to stop Sony's exclusivity on the F1 games too. All because PS3 has failed to set the world alight and they want more people to buy games with their license.

Yes, some developers would rather program for 360 since it is Windows-based and means they have less of a learning curve this generation. But other developers are making PS3 exclusives because they need a BD sized medium.

Of course you also have executives for developers like EA saying they want a standard format across gaming platforms so their lives could be easier all around. It was on Joystiq, I can find it if someone wants the link, but I won't make the effort right now.

Currently there is no confirmation of a mass exodus of developers from the PS3, nor is there a mass exit from the 360 for BD. Both Sony and Microsoft are constantly trying to avoid third parties leaving by introducing new models to help boost sales. The PS3 is coming out in cheaper models to boost sales so third-parties won't be as reluctant to leave, and if this rumor of an HD DVD integrated XBox are true then obviously Microsoft is wanting to avoid losing the massively sized third-party games.

From what I can see I believe (just my speculating here) that both companies are constantly reworking their designs and it is evidence that the third-party issue is bouncing back and forth and both companies are trying to bring some stability.

So far, consumers trying to determine which system they prefer have to decide based on exclusive titles. If you don't care about that and just want a gaming system then you have to choose between pricing and proven reliability (I'll leave the debate on the actual end price of systems after peripherals up to others).

 

[vectradriver]

Apparently, after denying it yesterday, Toshiba are denying the denial today.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/25/toshiba-denies-denying-xbox-360-with-built-in-hd-dvd-rumor/

 

[FoolKiller]

Now they are hurting my head.

 

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Biggles
I realise that this may belong on the other thread, but bear with me here:


So many questions, but I'll try and answer them as briefly as I can, but not so brief as to not offer anything useful in respone.

Also, so as not to derail this thread any long, beyond this I'd suggest we take it to another more appropriate thread.


Quote:
my understanding of the 360/PS3 war was that Sony has been criticised for bundling the PS3 with a blu-ray player, thus putting the price out of reach for many consumers & losing sales. Now, abruptly, M$ is being criticised for not including a HD player with the 360.
I suspect the recent criticism of MS is mostly based on the poor quality fo the 360's design, but yes, many also have critized MS for not designing the 360 to support games on HD DVD. Before the PS3 came out, I suspect most didn't realize how large games have gotten, and that using a 10+ year old optical disc format that developers were already maxing out before the 360 was even released was a very poor decision in terms of offering a console with any hope of longevity.


Quote:
As the PS3 has come down significantly in price, it is now highly competitive with the 360, especially if it is to be used as a blu-ray movie player as well as a gaming machine.
Apple to apples, the PS3 has always been the better value, as an equally equipped 360 would be nearly twice the cost of a PS3, but yes, now with the PS3 being even lower in price, and not only having a Blu-ray player for movies, but more importantly for many... much bigger games, and free online gaming and server support.


Quote:
I had pretty much decided to go out & buy a PS3 in the near-future, thereby throwing my lot in with the blu-ray side. The prospect of M$ putting out a new & improved 360/HD player at the end of 2008/beginning of 2009 strikes me as being too little, too late.
Possibly, but as many have said, MS is really in a tough sport, as they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They certainly have next to no chance of ever recouping their $7+ billion dollar losses from the Xbox & 360 if they do not make a significant change... but a significant change will also likely alienate much of their current 360 customer base.


Quote:
Does this mean that Sony's strategy with the PS3/blu-ray is turning out to be the winning one?
Well that remains to be seen. The only real winner financially right now is Nintendo, and by a wide margin at that, but the Wii is such a unique design, it really can't be accurately compared to either the 360 or the PS3, and as such, many Wii owners also have either a PS3 or 360 as well.

That said, there is a reason one often hears the tale of the tortoise and the hare, and that the first one out of the gate is not always the one to win the race. Only time will tell for sure, but financially, Microsoft’s Xbox divisions is by far the worst off, and by a massive margin at that... the good news is, MS makes so much money from their business and software divisions that at least for the time being, they can afford writing off over a billion dollars every year in hopes to monopolize the console market.

Considering though how poorly the 360 is selling compared to the PS2 and Wii, I, and may analysts suggest Microsoft will have to either completely re-o their console hardware design and marketing, or else pull the plug on hardware and focus all their efforts on selling highly profitable software.


Quote:
If everyone has lost money to date with their respective technologies, will there be an eventual payback?
Traditionally, that's been the business model of the console industry. Lose money in the beginning, and make up for it in software sales once the market is saturated.

Sony lost a lot of money on the PS2 initially, but with 25 million sold in the first two years, and huge software sales, that changed rapidly, and even today, the PS2 is still selling extremely well, even outselling both the 360 and PS3 most months, and is still a money machine for Sony.

The Wii is breaking that rule as they decided rather than make a truly next-gen console, to go cheap, and make a fun family friendly party console... and it's paying off in spades!


Quote:
Finally, for a simple-minded techno-phobe like myself , is now the time to get a PS3, & is the PS3 actually a decent, functional blu-ray player for movies?
The answer is an easy yes. Heck, it was a yes for me last year after comparing the Blu-ray playback functionality and performance of the PS3 to the $1,200 Panasonic Blu-ray player... and since then I have been enjoying the PS3 as a blu-ray player now for nearly a full year and couldn't be happier with it.

Thanks again for your response DN. First off, I have to admit to not having realised that the 360 was not designed to support games on HD DVD. Is that why the HD player part is an add-on?

The plot that I had been following was that the 360 had been "successful" because of the strategy of keeping the price lower by limiting its functionality to gaming, whereas the PS3 had been less successful because the included blu-ray player made the entry price point too high. It is, of course, all tied in with the competing HD/blu-ray technology wars, which make the stakes that much higher.

Now I'm hearing, for the first time, criticism of M$ for not having a built-in HD player. I can't help feeling that there is a fundamental difference of approach that reflects the difference between Japanese & American cultures: just as in the case of automoble design, the Japanese take a longer term approach to the issue of quality & the product cycle.

Anyway, based on your recommendation, I may take the step of going out & picking up a PS3 for movies, as well as GT5 demo etc. 👍

 

[FoolKiller]

Anyway, based on your recommendation, I may take the step of going out & picking up a PS3 for movies, as well as GT5 demo etc. 👍

And it still does oh so much more.

I could ramble on about everything it does but that belongs in another thread and would take too long.

 

[Maven]

I can't help feeling that there is a fundamental difference of approach that reflects the difference between Japanese & American cultures: just as in the case of automoble design, the Japanese take a longer term approach to the issue of quality & the product cycle.

It's also, frankly, a better business decision. Having a product that stays on the market longer means that the production costs are amortized over a longer life-span. That means a greater profit margin for the company. I believe Sony is still producing the PS2 and that means that every one they sell is making them money, since the production costs have already been paid for. That gives them a good safety buffer for the PS3 for the first couple of years until the begin to sell in greater numbers.

Microsoft is thinking like a software company and that really hasn't helped them in the field of gaming consoles. Stopping all production and sales of the original Xbox once the 360 debuted means that any remaining costs of the Xbox have to be made up with money made with the 360, driving down the profit margin.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Not a shocker (as they also denied the rumors about the Elite), but Microsoft is also now denying the rumors on the rumored new console:

Microsoft Denies Xbox HD DVD Rumors
Posted on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 04:16 PM ET on HighDefDigest

That rumored "Entertainment Xbox" with a built-in HD DVD hard drive? Microsoft says its a no-go.

Speaking with Home Media Magazine, the computer giant denied persistent rumors that it had teamed up with Toshiba to develop a new version of its gaming console with an internal HD DVD hard drive.

The trade magazine quotes Kevin Collins, Microsoft's director of HD DVD evangelism, as saying the company did not and will not bundle an HD DVD drive in its popular gaming console because Microsoft believes that gamers are first and foremost gamers.

"Microsoft knew if we put in an HD DVD drive that we would have to raise costs and disenfranchise our customers (that are primarily gamers) as the unit would become too expensive," explained Collins.

The exec's comments on the rumored Xbox came as part of a response to accusations that Microsoft's support of HD DVD was designed to perpetuate the format war in hopes that consumers will sit it out entirely, and instead buy their entertainment online. Collins called the accusations baseless, stating that the company had "over 100 people working on HD DVD interactivity and we believe that HD DVD is the next-generation optical format."

 

[Tornado]

When are any big companies going to stop bothering denying things more and more? It only makes it more obvious that it is true.

However, I don't see Microsoft actually building this machine, to be honest. HD-DVD sales are low compared to Blu-Ray, the HD-DVD addon is still making Sega 32X-like sales, and Microsoft would do well to not sell a 360 that goes for PS3 prices.
This is a Sega or Atari move. Not a Microsoft one.

 

[FoolKiller]

Can we really trust an article from an author who knows so little about this that he refers to it as an HD DVD hard drive? Last I checked HD DVD was an optical-disc based format, not a hard drive.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Can we really trust an article from an author who knows so little about this that he refers to it as an HD DVD hard drive? Last I checked HD DVD was an optical-disc based format, not a hard drive.

True, but this is a very common terminology error, and more importantly, the actual quote from the Microsoft rep uses the correct terminology... although I tend to agree that most "authors" reporting technology news, are just reporters, and not experts in the technology they are reporting news on... just as news anchors are not experts in the various industries they report news on. Nor do reporters need to. They just need to report the news, and leave the analysis and theories to the experts.


Now what I did find very puzzling among the quotes from Kevin Collins, Microsoft's director of HD DVD evangelism, were his comments about not having an HD DVD drive in its popular gaming console because Microsoft believes that gamers are first and foremost gamers...

Maybe he doesn't realize that like games on Blu-ray, games can also be put on HD DVD? For an HD DVD evangelist, he appears to be dismissing a valuable advantage that HD DVD has over DVD.

He also is apparently not aware that games have gone from being as small as .01 GB to over 7GB in a relatively short amount of time, and that growth rate isn't slowing down.

Apparently he also is not aware that some games have been maxing the disc space of DVD for over two years now. In fact, if you chose to believe what Evan/Duck says:

Most 360 games are right about that same size [7GB] (give or take 300MB) anyhow.

Then most games for the 360 have already maxed out the capacity of a DVD.

In addition, with the PS3 and Blu-ray, game developers have already released games over 16GB and we may soon see games requiring dual-layer 50GB discs.

Now if Microsoft is so pro-gamer and truly believes that gamers are first and foremost gamers... why then would they not offer gamers a console that has the ability to support the ever growing capacity of modern games?

I know it's been said before, but it can't be emphasized enough... when Microsoft decided to release the 360 with no support for games on HD DVD, that was equivalent to had they released the original Xbox with no support for games on DVD.

Yes, I totally understand why, and that was to keep costs down and to beat Sony's PS3 to the market place... both very good short term solutions, but lousy solutions as far as giving their customers a console that has any chance of lasting... and why I suspect these rumors of a new Xbox console with HD DVD game support are true.

What remains to be seen of course is will they actually produce it, because the cost to rollout an entirely new console, with support for games that the previous consoles can't play is going to be enormous. Considering how much money Microsoft has already lost in all their Xbox endeavors. I suspect Christopher Liddell, CFO of Microsoft, is probably campaigning internally against such a costly and risky venture.

However, for gamers, considering the direction gaming is going, playing on a 360 is going to be like playing on a PS1 long after the PS2 had been released. If Microsoft is serious about console gaming and offering hardware that is designed to meet current and future developments, then they have no choice but to come up with a new console design.

Microsoft is definitely in a very tight spot, and what ever decision they make, it's going to have a big impact on their customers and their financials.

 

[FoolKiller]

True, but this is a very common terminology error, and more importantly, the actual quote from the Microsoft rep uses the correct terminology... although I tend to agree that most "authors" reporting technology news, are just reporters, and not experts in the technology they are reporting news on... just as news anchors are not experts in the various industries they report news on. Nor do reporters need to. They just need to report the news, and leave the analysis and theories to the experts.

Sorry, I know better. It just brings back memories of a certain GT2 review in my local paper where the guy keeps talking about comparing the Ferrari to his in real life and then trashes the game. I just kept going, "What Ferrari?"

I hate journalists who try to sound like they know what they are talking about but can't take five minutes to check their terminology, and then it gets past the fact checker and the editor.

Now what I did find very puzzling among the quotes from Kevin Collins, Microsoft's director of HD DVD evangelism, were his comments about not having an HD DVD drive in its popular gaming console because Microsoft believes that gamers are first and foremost gamers...

I am going to conspiracy theory stretch here: Is it possible that there is a secret about HD-DVD that hasn't been revealed? Could something about how HD-DVD works keep it from being used for games?

I'm sure I am wrong, but as I don't know that much about the difference between the two other than I can now play Blu-Rays and they hold more, so they win.

Maybe he doesn't realize that like games on Blu-ray, games can also be put on HD DVD? For an HD DVD evangelist, he appears to be dismissing a valuable advantage that HD DVD has over DVD.

That is what makes me curious. It is odd that he would ignore the gaming applications, so I suspect he is either lying, hiding something, or an idiot.

I vote idiot.

 

[vectradriver]

If they did make a new one, I hope they'd just include a red laser so the console could play current games on it too.

 

[Maven]

I imagine they will, it would be stupid not to, although it would probably increase the cost. "Yes! You can now buy the latest machine and not be able to play any of the games you just bought!"

I'm just wondering as to how Xbox gamers would respond to such a new release. Or have they accepted buying a new console every couple of years as part of the deal?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

65 nm GPUs for Xbox 360 now in production, Xbox ‘540’ coming in 2009
Friday, May 09, 2008 16:00 By Theo Valich on TG Daily

News about refreshed Xbox 360 consoles are trickling, which is about time given the fact that the console will celebrate its third birthday later this year. The Taiwan Economic News is reporting that first wafers with 65 nm GPUs are leaving the production lines, joining the 65 nm Xenon CPU. Rumors about a Blu-ray Xbox 360 remain alive and we are hearing first information about a possible mid-cycle refresh for the console, which will include the ‘Valhalla’ SoC.

It has been almost a year since Chartered has begun taking the Xbox 360 Xenon CPU from 90 nm to 65 nm and it really was just a matter of time until other hardware would follow. According to the Taiwan Economic News, TSMC has initiated first wafer starts of the 65 nm Xenos GPU and Northbridge. Microsoft apparently has ordered 10,000 300 mm wafers from TSMC at this time.

As it is the case with any die-shrink, Microsoft should see substantial economic advantages from this move, supporting the company’s ongoing strategy to reduce the production cost of the console (the reduction of the Xbox 360 production cost has been one of the key reasons why Microsoft’s entertainment division has been able to notably increase its profits over the past seven quarters). If the 65 nm Xenos "v2" scales down linearly from 90 nm, the new die size should be around 125 mm2, while the eDRAM chip will remain at 70 mm2. The new production process should yield about 35% more GPUs per wafer than before.

TSMC will continue to be in charge of the wafers, while Nanya will be delivering the flip-chip packaging substrates. ASE combines the silicon and substrate and is responsible for QA.

Quite honestly, we were a bit surprised to hear that Microsoft did not decide to die-shrink both the CPU and GPU at the same time, especially because two different foundries are manufacturing the chips. However, our sources at TSMC explained that Microsoft has the same production philosophy as Nvidia: Wait for a manufacturing process to mature and then run the initial wafer order. Apparently, the transition was simulated in detail by ATI and the tapeout happened without problems, at least according to our sources close to ATI. Keep in mind that ATI is only a contracted partner for Microsoft: Both the CPU and GPU are officially Microsoft parts, and the Ballmer-Gates company is the only one in the console segment following through with such a strategy.

The Xbox 360 is scheduled to ship in an "all 65 nm" package (Jasper platform) this August. Consumers won’t notice the refresh, unless Microsoft decides to put a Blu-ray drive into the Xbox 360. We were not able to receive a confirmation either way, and we keep digging to find out if the Asustek subsidiary Pegatron will manufacture regular Xbox 360’s or units with an integrated Blu-ray drive. In any case, Celestica, Pegatron and Wistron will have a busy summer cranking out millions of refreshed Xbox 360 consoles.

A more dramatic and perhaps visible change will happen next year: TSMC plans to begin producing the Valhalla chip, which will be the foundation of the mid-cycle refresh of the Xbox 360, thus called ‘Xbox 2.5’ or simply ‘Xbox 540’ (360+180), in fall of 2009. We learned that this new chip is apparently much more than a die-shrink and end up as a system-on-a-chip design. This change is likely to enable to redesign the Xbox 360 casing and go towards a slim-design, much like what Sony did with the Gen1 and Gen2 PS2. We believe that TSMC will use a 45 nm process for this Multi-Chip-Module package (CPU+GPU+eDRAM).

There are also some interesting pieces of information that Microsoft is shopping for a more efficient cooling solution – efficient in more ways than just one: Several people close to the cooling industry told us that Microsoft approached them and asked for better and cheaper cooling than what is used in the Xbox 360 right now. Some may claim that the current Xbox 360 cooler design is already as cheap as it gets, but we have no doubts that Microsoft will find a way to drop the cost once again.

If these new features come to fruition, and they improve the cooling system, the 540, or what ever it might be called may finally address some of the design flaws of the 360. 👍