Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[TouringDevotee]

Have you considered that maybe the 80 millions dollars was already too much? That they kept asking for more up to the point someone said "no"? 80 millions is already an astronomical budget. I can't really understand how can anyone think they should have spent more.

Due to what KY has said about the evolution of GT5 and its ease of moving forward to GT6, I would believe that Sony sees the development time and costs involved with GT5 as being something which will rollover into that of GT6. It would be interesting to find how much money Sony has made from the sale of 4 million copies of GT5P and 1.8 million copies of GTPSP.

Are their development costs considered part of GT5's or do they have their own, which would increase the overall development cost? Grand Theft Auto IV had a $100 million development cost, although it was multiplatform, selling 17 million copies across all platforms.

And the problem with hiring more people is you can't just hire anyone. Specially when we are talking about modelers to model the most accurate and detailed cars the gaming industry ever saw. We are not talking about hiring average joes, but very talented people with experience. Believe it or not, those are very hard to find. They tend to be hired by someone else already.

In this economy, I think you can find/steal people, but you must also take into account that every new hire needs to be trained in the company way of doing things and be brought up to speed.

Don't think I entirely agree with DoctorFouad though. It's quite hard, if not impossible, to actually know what went on inside PD's building those 6 years but it really looks like PD screwed up somewhat. They took a very long time to develop the game and judging from what I saw up until now, nothing appears to justify this long development time. The whole confusion of features being thrown in and broken promises looks like a by-product of poor planing to me. Looks like they never had a definite plan of what GT5 should be. Not surprisingly, they took two steps forward one step back, delaying GT5 for longer than normal.

I agree for the most part, but I think that the word promise is a bit strong. They showed in past presentations what they'd like to do, and have updated us at various points with what they think is currently possible. They had high hopes and have had to curtail features in order to deliver a product in a timely manner, however, they are to an extent selling us the game in the form of pre-orders, and then stating what it won't do, although we can always cancel a pre-order so...

Just a few thoughts that I'd be happy for anyone to critique.

 

[Devedander]

Standards in action - first Time I've seen this vid
Some of them do have cockpits

Glad they didn't make us wait long after launch!

 

[CTznOfTime]

You guys don't bother checking the upload dates of these videos, do you?

I normally would, but i am currently using a hmmm "public" computer, where certain things are blocked and uncheckable ...

so i am sorta half blind until i get home.

 

[The_Paladin]

3/ outsourcing modelling of cars. Already (I think seismica thanks) have answered this question : strict quality control and efficiency issues! YES polyphony could outsource car modelling, but than it is difficult for them to be sure that all cars are equally well modelled (different quality cars or even circuits is a problem in forza3). They could verify that each modeller used 500,000 polygons for each car, but they cant control if those external modellers are using those polygons efficiently. Albeit they could control their internal staff.

Like i said before, lots of game developers are using now outsourcing, plus you are not exploring another idea that i pointed out:

The outsource guys do the car models and Polyphony do the quality control al FIX anything that need to be fixed, im pretty sure this these 6 years they could have done it very good.

And you make Forza 3 seem like bad models and they are not, they are very good compared with anything released by now in this gen except GT5p and we know that some of they are rushed because of the time schedule no because they were lazy or unprofessional.
We could have something much better than 200 amazing models and 800 very outdated models, we could have 1000 very good models instead.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Like i said before, lots of game developers are using now outsourcing, plus you are not exploring another idea that i pointed out:

The outsource guys do the car models and Polyphony do the quality control al FIX anything that need to be fixed, im pretty sure this these 6 years they could have done it very good.

And you make Forza 3 seem like bad models and they are not, they are very good compared with anything released by now in this gen except GT5p and we know that some of they are rushed because of the time schedule no because they were lazy or unprofessional.
We could have something much better than 200 amazing models and 800 very outdated models, we could have 1000 very good models instead.

It's easier said than done you know, especially when most of those models are averaging at 500k polygons, and you have to check the interior, engine, and hell even the lights if you want them to keep the quality on par with the premium models.

And it seems some people are still unable to grasp the idea of future-proofing.
What we have right now are 200 future-proof models which won't need to be remodeled or updated or tweaked or optimized any further for future games in the series. This lessens the burden because now you have less cars to concentrate your focus on.
If we have 1000 very good models, which I presume you mean of sub-standard quality compared to premiums, then those 1000 would still have to be updated for future games.
So in the first scenario, PD have only 800 (whoop-dee-doo) models to worry about, while in the second, they have to concentrate on all 1000 models.

And updating a present model is not as simple as it seems. It's not like a magical progress bar where you have 70% done because the model was there beforehand and then you can up it to 100% just by tweaking. Remaking a present model can take just as much time if not more time than making a new one from scratch.

That being said, with most of the infrastructure of GT set up with GT5, I hope PD only focus their entire concentration on adding more content i.e. cars/tracks/racing disciplines and less time on extra features like weather/track editor for the next game

 

[Devedander]

It's easier said than done you know, especially when most of those models are averaging at 500k polygons, and you have to check the interior, engine, and hell even the lights if you want them to keep the quality on par with the premium models.

Of course it's easier said than done, everything is, but how much harder is it to do than say? See here we go again... take a generalization and then make it mean what you want.

As I said above, you're ony guessing either way and it might not be as hard as you think, so you can't realy just say "it's so hard it couldn't be done" because you don't know that.

And it seems some people are still unable to grasp the idea of future-proofing.

And some people forget the GT4 cars were future proof too... some people are unable to grasp the very idea of future proofing (unless you are actaully pschic or have a time machine) is questionable at best.

The assumption the future will be comprised of what we have now but much more of it is usually flawed. We assume that just having a much higher leve of detail will make these cars future proof, but I brought up before, what if in the future we do things that we hadn't thought of now?

What if thickness of material, hardness and breaking point are all accounted for? Did PD measure how thick each panel was? What if the thing in the future is modeling actual engine heat dissipation through the engine bay and cabin? Has PD recorded information about the heat transfer ability of different areas of the car?

What about super acccurate sound reproduction? It's quite possible in the near future we won't have to guesstimate how a car sounds from different places, we may actually generate the sound waves dynamicallly and effectively raytrace them off parts of the car. Has PD measured the density and sound altering effects of all parts of the car?

Future proofing game assets is a hard as future proofing hardware. I could take todays best video card, stack 10 times the GPUs on it that it has now and say it's future proof! And all it takes for that to go south is the invention of some new kind of shader or built on physics processor on the next generation to render my future proofing ruined.

The Sega Saturn was an excellent example of this. It was designed as the ultimate gaming machine with all kinds of specializations to make it the best system for a decade or more!

That was with 2D gaming in mind... they future proofed the crap out of it for 2D gaming... only to run smack into the era of 3D gaming taking off. The saturn was ill equipped for this unforseen paradime shift and suffered for it.

The PS3 itself was future proof... with it's super advanced processor and storage technology, it was going to blow the cometition straight out of the water and then some for over a decade!

And look, in this very forum we have people talking about the limited horse power of the PS3 and the aging graphics chipset... the limited RAM etc.

No, future proof is a game of luck at best.

It's already failed once and what's the point of future proofing to save a step later when it essentially means skipping a large part of this generation?

 

[Pierced Lead]

Of course it's easier said than done, everything is, but how much harder is it to do than say? See here we go again... take a generalization and then make it mean what you want.

As I said above, you're ony guessing either way and it might not be as hard as you think, so you can't realy just say "it's so hard it couldn't be done" because you don't know that.



And some people forget the GT4 cars were future proof too... some people are unable to grasp the very idea of future proofing (unless you are actaully pschic or have a time machine) is questionable at best.

The assumption the future will be comprised of what we have now but much more of it is usually flawed. We assume that just having a much higher leve of detail will make these cars future proof, but I brought up before, what if in the future we do things that we hadn't thought of now?

What if thickness of material, hardness and breaking point are all accounted for? Did PD measure how thick each panel was? What if the thing in the future is modeling actual engine heat dissipation through the engine bay and cabin? Has PD recorded information about the heat transfer ability of different areas of the car?

What about super acccurate sound reproduction? It's quite possible in the near future we won't have to guesstimate how a car sounds from different places, we may actually generate the sound waves dynamicallly and effectively raytrace them off parts of the car. Has PD measured the density and sound altering effects of all parts of the car?

No, future proof is a game of luck at best.

It's already failed once and what's the point of future proofing to save a step later when it essentially means skipping a large part of this generation?

...................


You bring up some valid points there.

 

[DoctorFouad]

The_Paladin :

We could have something much better than 200 amazing models and 800 very outdated models, we could have 1000 very good models instead.


Devedander :

But I think it's pretty clear the final prduct is suffering in this instance from the kid in the candy store approach. Sometimes you gotta make the hard choice for the lesser of two evils and give up some control so that you don't end up smothering your own hard work.

I totally agree that GT5 could have been better with better management from kazunori yamauchi, but than again : so what ? anything in our world could have been better with better management, any product sold to customers, any movie, car, game,...etc even the computer we are using to wright in this forum could have been better produced, could have been less expensive and higher quality if its producers were better managed. Nothing is perfect, anything could be improved and we learn from our mistakes to improve things, it is life !

But what is specific about GT5 ?!! Why all those unjustified critics ?!! even Forza 3 could have been better with better management, why I never heard anyone saying : forza 3 was badly managed they should have included 1000 cars not 400 ! even the legendary GT1 could have been better, it took polyphony also 6 years to develop (1992 - 1997) but the result was really worth it.

BUT I TELL YOU what is specific about GT5, why some people are blaming kazunori yamauchi : he is suffering from announcing his own ambitions too early. thats all, he promised 1000 cars, (edit but people discover that 200 only are premiums and have cockipt views, he promised an impressive damage system too, he also was obliged to announce GT5 too early because sony needed it, so people now are thinking GT5 is the new duke nukem forever with infinite delays (which is not true, officially GT5 was only delayed once from March 2010 to November 2010, it is just people assuming the game will be out soon after its announcement in 2006, so each year the game is not out some people interpret this as a delay which is not true)

Now imagine this alternative scenario : GT5 was announced only at E3 2010, with only 200 premium cars and no talk at all about 1000 cars. would the same people criticize kazunori yamauchi for not including 1000 cars ?!!! would the same people criticize yamauchi for delaying the game ?!!! Hell NO because he never announced those things, because GT1 took also 6 years of development time with only 178 cars and 11 tracks, and no one blamed yamauchi at that time of bad management !

gamers and reviewers should really stop criticizing video games for what they should have been according to the talks of developers years before the ames are out, or according to some imaginative highly unrealistic expectations scenarios...video games must be criticized according to what they are, not to what they should have been if a perfect unrealistic imaginary geat management scenario with unlimited resources took place.

video games also must be compared to what exists in the market, You tell me other racing games got better AI : fair enough ! other games got better sound effects : fair enough ! but GT5 got only 200 cars ?!!! thats craziness, thats unfair, because no other game in the market has 200 as detailed cars as GT5, GT5 in this specific area (cars modeling) is actually a leader and has no lesson to receive from other games, it is GT5 who must give lessons in car modeling to other game developers, not the other way around.

GT5 got 200 highly detailed cars, now if you think that 400 less detailed cars of forza 3 are a better alternative its your call, but please stop blaming polyphony digital of not modeling 1000 highly detailed cars, because simply no company ever did 200 premium cars, let alone 1000...if any company did create more than 200 cars that are at least as detailed as those of GT5 than you are right : relatively bad management from yamauchi, others have relatively achieved better management. (again there is no such thing as absolute bad or good management, everything is relative, everything could get better with more effort)

but Until now GT5 is the leader and for me the management of yamauchi is top notch ! no one is doing better than him ! he could have done better OK but there is no such thing as absolute best management practices, everything is relative and comparative. So until another genius manager creates more than 200 premium cars in less than 6 years development time and less than 80 million $ budget, I will consider yamauchi as one of the best managers not an inch less good manager than forza3 managers or any other racing game managers ! no one is doing overall better than him !

 

[Devedander]

I totally agree that GT5 could have been better with better management from kazunori yamauchi, but than again : so what ?

But by your own rational, it's not the absolute that something could have been better, but relative to what's out there how good is it? And I would say looking around that the project management very much appears to be way below par on this particular project.

Gears of War, was every bit as awesome as I thought it would be and was managed well. God of War III every bit the masterpiece it was supposed to be. Uncharted and Uncharted 2... the list goes on... it's not like there is any shortage of well managed products to compare it too, so even by your own standards of judgement this was not a good go.

BUT I TELL YOU what is specific about GT5, why some people are blaming kazunori yamauchi : he is suffering from announcing his own ambitions too early.

Yes I mentioned this a long time ago, it's called managing expectations and is an important part of the game.

thats all,

Oops... no... that's where you go off a bit, that's not all. It's some, but it's certainly not all.

he promised 1000 cars, only to discover that 200 only are premiums

He discovered? Like someone sprung it on him at the last second?

The guy literally runs the show here... this is actually the very crux of poor project management... if it's taking 6 months a car to make your cars, you know really far in advance that you aren't making any kind of release date anytime soon. From there on out, how you handle it is your call and handling it poorly is all on your shoulders.

Discovered? No...

Now imagine this alternative scenario : GT5 was announced only at E3 2010, with only 200 premium cars and no talk at all about 1000 cars. would the same people criticize kazunori yamauchi for not including 1000 cars ?!!! would the same people criticize yamauchi for delaying the game ?!!! Hell NO

This basically did happen... they announced GT premium and GT HD for an early PS3 lifespan release and they said pretty much this and the idea got panned...

They (appeared to have) scrapped the idea and went ahead and moved on with what everything suggested would be a full on GT5 only to reveal later on they basically did the idea that got panned anyway after releasing a demo teaser (GT5P) that strongly implied at what the future of GT was going to be with no mention of it only partially being that and vaguely alluding to the bombshell info about standards and premiums until just recently.

gamers should really stop criticizing video games for what they should have been according to the talks of developers years before the ames are out, or according to some imaginative highly unrealistic expectations scenarios...video games must be criticized according to what they are, not to what they should have been if a perfect unrealistic imaginary geat management with unlimited resources took place.

I don't know if you all know what this product is, but there is a drink sold in the US called VitaminWater. Their slogan is "Healthy Hydration".

Now this drink is pretty much sugar water with chemicals and is sold in a clear plastic bottle so any vitamins that MIGHT be in the drink are killed by flourecent lights long before you drink it. It's basically a horribly unhealthy drink and they recently got picked out for their false slogan of "Heathy Hydration".

Their defense? They said they weren't lying with their slogan because no one would really believe their product was healthy so it was an obvious exageration and not to be taken seriously.

They basically said we lied so badly that we didn't really lie.

Does that sound ridiculous to you?

Well how does the expectation that we not blame games for faling short of the expectations set by the very people in charge of making said games over long periods of time sound any better?

Isn't the real solution that they be honest with us instead of us having to assume they are lying/wrong/incompitent all the time?

video games also must be compared to what exists in the market, GT5 got 200 highly detailed cars, now if you think that 400 less detailed cars of forza 3 are a better alternative its your call, but please stop blaming polyphony digital of not modeling 1000 highly detailed cars, because simply no company ever did 200 premium cars, let alone 1000...if any company did create more than 200 cars that are at least as detailed as those of GT5 than you are right : relatively bad management from yamauchi, others have relatively achieved better management.

And no company has taken 6 years and $80 million dollars to release the 6th part of a franchise of the exact same genre either... you can't call for a comparison of apples to apples where there are no other apples out there.

Why must we stop blaming PD for not doing what they strongly implied the whole time they were going to do?

Should we stop blaming VitaminWater for infering their product is healthy?

So until a game creates more than 200 premium cars in less than 6 years development time and less than 80 million $ budget, I will consider yamauchi as one of the best managers not an inch less good manager than forza3 managers or any other racing game ! no one is doing overall better than him !

All I can say is: the Heat DG took when Forza 3 came out for not having the same level of detail for in car models as showroom was vicious and no one around here plead for leniency then. I don't get why we flip flop our rules of judgement just because the name changes...

 

[eSZee]

Woohoo, deja vu in full swing!

 

[terminator363]

Going back to DLC packs why does Kaz want everything NOW or LATER, never in between, there was an interview he said he didn't want DLC because he wanted everything in game, not later on, but why, so even if he did manage 300 more premium cars that could be DLC, he wouldn't give them to us, until GT6? Do you think Kaz is doing this to make the next game feel more special and amazing? I think so.

 

[Devedander]

Woohoo, deja vu in full swing!

It's funny when you spend a lot of time actually paying attention to the details and folowing the news and info, how much stuff you see that's obviously the result of jumping right in without doing your homework

 

[eSZee]

It's funny when you spend a lot of time actually paying attention to the details and folowing the news and info, how much stuff you see that's obviously the result of jumping right in without doing your homework

It's like the forums reset every couple of weeks and everyone gets amnesia.

Going back to DLC packs why does Kaz want everything NOW or LATER, never in between, there was an interview he said he didn't want DLC because he wanted everything in game, not later on, but why, so even if he did manage 300 more premium cars that could be DLC, he wouldn't give them to us, until GT6? Do you think Kaz is doing this to make the next game feel more special and amazing? I think so.

Erm, no. The context of that quote was that he will not release DLC right after the game releases. If he could do that, he could wait another 2 weeks, delay the game, and put the DLC content on the disk from the beginning.

 

[DoctorFouad]

He discovered? Like someone sprung it on him at the last second?

The guy literally runs the show here... this is actually the very crux of poor project management... if it's taking 6 months a car to make your cars, you know really far in advance that you aren't making any kind of release date anytime soon. From there on out, how you handle it is your call and handling it poorly is all on your shoulders.

Discovered? No...

sorry I edited, I badly expressed my idea, I meant people discovered the game got only 200 premium cars, of course yamauchi knew since a long time ago that he cannot achieve 1000 premium cars, but this is marketing (+ read in an interview that yamauchi san tried to solve the problem of 800 cars without cockpit, but his team couldnt unfortunately solve this problem and he feels sorry and disappointed for gamers)

 

[DoctorFouad]

But by your own rational, it's not the absolute that something could have been better, but relative to what's out there how good is it? And I would say looking around that the project management very much appears to be way below par on this particular project.

Gears of War, was every bit as awesome as I thought it would be and was managed well. God of War III every bit the masterpiece it was supposed to be. Uncharted and Uncharted 2... the list goes on... it's not like there is any shortage of well managed products to compare it too, so even by your own standards of judgement this was not a good go.

Honestly I am shocked and it is beyond my understanding how some people think that what will become (if my expectations are right) the best racing video game ever created + one of the best selling racing games ever created (GT3 sold 15 million, I expect the same for GT5 if not more) was badly managed. This is really beyon my capacity to understand, I just dont get it, how anyone could call a game like GT5 as being badly managed...believe me even naughty dog would die to badly manage uncharted 3 like polyphony badly managed GT5...any developer would be glad to badly manage its video game a la GT5...

Yes I mentioned this a long time ago, it's called managing expectations and is an important part of the game.

here I agree, it is a marketing mistake done by a lot of game developers, the champion being peter molyneux and his legendary Project Ego...But than to call GT5 overall badly managed, thats shocking, as i said i would love to create a game as badly managed as GT5 LOL


I think some people are really blowing this premium/standard car thing out of its real proportion. to call GT5 badly managed...

 

[Devedander]

Honestly I am shocked and it is beyond my understanding how some people think that what will become (if my expectations are right) the best racing video game ever created + one of the best selling racing games ever created (GT3 sold 15 million, I expect the same for GT5 if not more) was badly managed. This is really beyon my capacity to understand, I just dont get it, how anyone could call a game like GT5 as being badly managed...believe me even naughty dog would die to badly manage uncharted 3 like polyphony badly managed GT5...any developer would be glad to badly manage its video game a la GT5...

We will have to see about sales numbers, but it almost certainly be a heavy hitter.

That said sales numbers do not necessarily reflect management skill and talent or product quality. Look at any number of profitable big businesses with virtually criminal management and any number of current pop music stars as evidence. Madden sells pretty much as well on it's off years as it does on it's on years.

Why not look at the managment itself instead of looking everywhere else for some other factor to guage it by?

But than to call GT5 overall badly managed, thats shocking, as i said i would love to create a game as badly managed as GT5 LOL

Again, you keep quantifying management skill by virtue of other assets. Why not look it square in the face: What else do you call only completing 20% of your goal on time when the numbers clearlyl show from early on your workload does not match your workforce and yet you do not hire more workforce?

It's either setting goals too lofty and refusing to adjust your game plan appropriately when that becomes obvious.

Just pure negligence.

or

A lack of desire to honesty represent and maintain expectations of your customers.

All of which are poor managment.

You said it yourself, you agree he failed to manage expecations. That is also a huge art of project management.

I think some people are really blowing this premium/standard car thing out of its real proportion. to call GT5 badly managed...

GT5 has a lot of loose ends or unfinished potential. The kid in the candy store analogy seems very fitting and that is exactly the bad management we are talking about.

 

[DoctorFouad]

We will have to see about sales numbers, but it almost certainly be a heavy hitter.

That said sales numbers do not necessarily reflect management skill and talent or product quality. Look at any number of profitable big businesses with virtually criminal management and any number of current pop music stars as evidence. Madden sells pretty much as well on it's off years as it does on it's on years.

Why not look at the managment itself instead of looking everywhere else for some other factor to guage it by?



Again, you keep quantifying management skill by virtue of other assets. Why not look it square in the face: What else do you call only completing 20% of your goal on time when the numbers clearlyl show from early on your workload does not match your workforce and yet you do not hire more workforce?

It's either setting goals too lofty and refusing to adjust your game plan appropriately when that becomes obvious.

Just pure negligence.

or

A lack of desire to honesty represent and maintain expectations of your customers.

All of which are poor managment.

You said it yourself, you agree he failed to manage expecations. That is also a huge art of project management.



GT5 has a lot of loose ends or unfinished potential. The kid in the candy store analogy seems very fitting and that is exactly the bad management we are talking about.

Ok, I will cite some numbers (source wikipedia and polyphon website), and i have one question for you : do you consider any of the previous GT games badly managed too ? (GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4) I assure you GT5 would be no less of a success than the previous GT games.

Title Year Released Platform Cars Tracks
Gran Turismo 1997/1998 PlayStation 178 11
Gran Turismo 2 1999/2000 PlayStation 650 27
Gran Turismo 3: 2001 PlayStation 2 180+ 34
Gran Turismo 4 2005 PlayStation 2 722 51
Gran turismo 5 2010 PS3 200 (not counting standard), tracks : 20 locations with 70 layouts

Sales :
itle Units (K)*
Gran Turismo 10,850
Gran Turismo 2 9,370
Gran Turismo 3 14,890
Gran Turismo Concept Series 1,560
Gran Turismo 4 “Prologue” 1,400
Gran Turismo 4 11,060
Gran Turismo 5 “Prologue” 4,950
Gran Turismo PSP 1,960

Aggregate review scores
As of January 5, 2010.
Game GameRankings Metacritic
Gran Turismo 94.71% 96%
Gran Turismo 2 92.52% 93%
Gran Turismo 3: 94.30% 95%
Gran Turismo 4 89.43% 89%


he Gran Turismo video game series has been one of the most popular over its lifetime, appealing to an audience ranging from casual gamers to fans of realistic PC racing sims. Because of the success of the Gran Turismo series, Guinness World Records awarded the series 7 world records in the Guinness World Records: Gamer's Edition 2008. These records include "Largest Number of cars in a Racing game", "Highest Selling PlayStation Game","Oldest Car in a Racing Game", and "Largest Instruction Guide for a Racing Game".
With a collective sales total of over 57 million units sold[1], it is the highest-selling PlayStation exclusive franchise of all time.





Took any criteria you wanna take ! (average review scores ? sales ? Guiness ?...) and compare to any racing game released in history you wanna compare to ! Are you still sure about badly managed ?!!! and dont forgot that releasing a game took time GT5 prologue which sold 5 million units)

 

[Devedander]

Are you still sure about badly managed ?!!! and dont forgot that releasing a game took time GT5 prologue which sold 5 million units)

So I explain that sales success and resultant figures don't dismiss poor management so you rebut with... sales figures and other metrics.

To answer your question, the only one I would even mildly consider poorly managed was GT4 largely in part due to it's online access fiasco. But generally no, I wouldn't consider the series to be showing glaring signs of poor managment throughout it's history. And my buddies uncle was the picture of health his whole life until he dropped dead of stroke at 56.

Past performance has nothing to do with present function.

Now I answered your question, instead of dodging and looking for positives to try and link to or dismiss poor management please answer mine.

How does someone knowingly induce the expectation of 1000 GT5P cars if fans, then end up with only 20% of the cars being GT5P quality or better with the knowledge that each car took on average 6 months to create and not qualify as poor management?

As I said, you can have poor management and still sell the crap out of something, it doens't mean it wasn't poor project management. I am not asking about sales, scores or other tangentials... I am asking about the process of project managing and how it was done.

So please, without getting tangential and saying how others wish they had GTs sales numbers, answer the question, how do you say that not recognizing a shortfall of 80% early enough on to do something about it, or choosing not to do something about it is not poor project management?

BTW I will point out that while GT5 is likely to sell quite well, it hasn't actually done so yet so we can't really claim those figures either way and ultimately, in a franchise like this, the last few generations can be total crap and ride on the success of previous iterations. For instance if Madden really started tanking this year, it would probably still sell for at lesat a year or two quite well before people caught on en mass. Just a heads up for the faulty logic.

 

[Tornado]

Ok, I will cite some numbers

None of those numbers have anything to do with what Deve has said. A game being poorly managed does not preclude its ability to sell well, nor does it completely rule out the chances for it to be a good game in the end.

 

[X-Power]

Devedander: Will you stop slating GT5 at every opportunity you get. It's your own fault if GT5 doesn't meet your expectations, not PD's or Sony's fault. The fact is, GT5 is going to be the greatest console racing game ever made, it has a wide variety of brilliant features, all polished to perfection. So what if there are standard cars? Most of them will be turned into Premium's for GT6 anyway, we're not stuck with them for the rest of the series. I know personally that I am going to love every second of GT5, as will most fans. I am extremely grateful for the very hard work that PD have put into GT5 and so should you be. It isn't easy to make a multi-million pound game you know. So stop throwing your toys out of your pram and start being more appreciative of PD's hard work.

Sorry about the long post, but I needed to get that off my chest. I can't stand overly negative posts. I can understand criticism, it's helps developers improve their games, but I haven't read anything but negative comments from Devedander.

 

[Tornado]

So what if there are standard cars? Most of them will be turned into Premium's for GT6 anyway, we're not stuck with them for the rest of the series.

That's actually somewhat doubtful, strictly speaking.

 

[Devedander]

Devedander: Will you stop slating GT5 at every opportunity you get.

Actually there are plenty of opportunities which I pass up and also plenty more where I praise certain features. But you wouldn't notice those...

It's your own fault if GT5 doesn't meet your expectations, not PD's or Sony's fault.

No... pretty sure you are completely wrong there... you know how I know? Because I have been gaming for a long time and I have been very happy all they way through the whole cycle with many games. It's not like something is just broken with me and I can't be happy... so if it's not a problem with me, that kind of only leaves one option doesn't it?

(Hint, there is nobodies fault it COULD be besides Sony and PD).

The fact is, GT5 is going to be the greatest console racing game ever made

That's a fact? Can I either have a ride in your time machine or can you at least tell me the winning lotto numbers for next week? Cuz you know around here... if you haven't played the final game... you can't really talk facts like that.

It has a wide variety of brilliant features, all polished to perfection.

Really? You mean like WRC? That's polished to perfection? MOVE OVER RBR!!! HERE WE COME!

NASCAR? Is that gonna be better than NASCAR2003?

What about weather and time of day? Is that polished to perfect? Well I mean on the tracks it's available on

What about damage? Polished and perfected? Again, I mean on the 20 percent of cars it's fully implimented on.

Graphics? Fully perfected? Those premium cars sure do look like it... what about the trees?

If you wonder why I won't take your post seriously, it's because of all your blatently fanboyishly false claims.

So what if there are standard cars? Most of them will be turned into Premium's for GT6 anyway,

Right on cue: It will be in GT6!!!

BTW how does being in GT6 make it polished and perfected in GT5?

we're not stuck with them for the rest of the series.

Oh sweet, because we aren't gonna be stuck with some weird models in Forza for the rest of the series and we aren't gonna have poor physics in Shift for the rest of the NFS series... knowing that we can safely dismiss those issues with those games right now.

I know personally that I am going to love every second of GT5, as will most fans.

Oh... so no time machine... it's the psychic thing huh? Figured.

I am extremely grateful for the very hard work that PD have put into GT5 and so should you be.

Ummm I'm gonna be forking over my hard earned cash for the game... it's not like PD is my friend or my grandma or something... we don't have a grateful for your benevolence kind of relationship... it's a business consumer thing you know?

It isn't easy to make a multi-million pound game you know. So stop throwing your toys out of your pram and start being more appreciative of PD's hard work.

Yeah I do know... you know how I know? I see plenty of other big budget games come down the pipes regularly... and some of them are awesome.

I mean I don't pay people for EASY. I pay for delivering some hard work and sweat... I dunno what kind of job you have, but that's kind of how it's always been in my life... I don't know where you got the idea I thought the game I am gonna crank over cold hard cash for was easy to make.

So is PD your friend or your uncle or something? Because you seem awful defense and personal about this whole thing? Did I insult some member of your family or kick your dog or something?

Sorry about the long post, but I needed to get that off my chest. I can't stand overly negative posts. I can understand criticism, it's helps developers improve their games, but I haven't read anything but negative comments from Devedander.

Gosh... sorry the world doesn't hand you nothing but roses and candy and sometimes things come along that, God forbid, you don't like...

It must be hard being you... tell me... what's it like to be delicate?

 

[Organ-Donor]

Devedander: Will you stop slating GT5 at every opportunity you get. It's your own fault if GT5 doesn't meet your expectations, not PD's or Sony's fault. The fact is, GT5 is going to be the greatest console racing game ever made, it has a wide variety of brilliant features, all polished to perfection. So what if there are standard cars? Most of them will be turned into Premium's for GT6 anyway, we're not stuck with them for the rest of the series. I know personally that I am going to love every second of GT5, as will most fans. I am extremely grateful for the very hard work that PD have put into GT5 and so should you be. It isn't easy to make a multi-million pound game you know. So stop throwing your toys out of your pram and start being more appreciative of PD's hard work.

Sorry about the long post, but I needed to get that off my chest. I can't stand overly negative posts. I can understand criticism, it's helps developers improve their games, but I haven't read anything but negative comments from Devedander.

It's all good man, many of us will be glued on GT5 enjoying the hell out of it while some others can't come to terms with certian issues and will be here on the forums still moaning about it.

 

[amar212]

Not aimed at anyone particular, so if you find yourself offended it is probably your own problem then.

 

[Devedander]

Not aimed at anyone particular, so if you find yourself offended it is probably your own problem then.

Right now everyone is thinking to themselves: "OMG This is totallly that other guy!"

Also not directed at anyone in particular:

 

[Organ-Donor]

Well I know for me, and alot of others, many are completely satisified with what we have seen so far, or have acknowledged the faults and have been able to get over it like adults. Also not directed at anyone:

 

[ItsHim]

Also not directed at anyone in particular:

Neither words nor reason... I've been at the Gamescom for three days, I played the damn game a couple of times. My first impression was so-so, but after getting back into GT-world, is was pure bliss. Because the tracks and cars and driving experience are THAT good.

And that's coming from a Codemaster's fanboi.

 

[Bourner]

This thread is great, it has quotes, pictures, and lots of human emotion.

I'm just as gutted as most of you about the 800 standard cars. Yes it was bad business, poor management of resources and perhaps misleading PR. So? Is there anything else we can do besides buy or not buy the game? This thread has been beaten to death and while not posting in it, I've read it's countless pages. I just can't see 800 cars magically turn premium, regardless of how many more hundreds of posts we make on here.

Perhaps we can move on and accept the inevitable. GT5 is what it is. Perhaps DLC of GT5 will deliver the 800 cars from evil standard to premium goddess.

 

[Strittan]

This thread is great, it has quotes, pictures, and lots of human emotion.

I'm just as gutted as most of you about the 800 standard cars. Yes it was bad business, poor management of resources and perhaps misleading PR. So? Is there anything else we can do besides buy or not buy the game? This thread has been beaten to death and while not posting in it, I've read it's countless pages. I just can't see 800 cars magically turn premium, regardless of how many more hundreds of posts we make on here.

Perhaps we can move on and accept the inevitable. GT5 is what it is. Perhaps DLC of GT5 will deliver the 800 cars from evil standard to premium goddess.

I've tried to tell them this many times. Let's hope they take you more seriously. 👍

 

[DoctorFouad]

Now I answered your question, instead of dodging and looking for positives to try and link to or dismiss poor management please answer mine.

How does someone knowingly induce the expectation of 1000 GT5P cars if fans, then end up with only 20% of the cars being GT5P quality or better with the knowledge that each car took on average 6 months to create and not qualify as poor management?

As I said, you can have poor management and still sell the crap out of something, it doens't mean it wasn't poor project management. I am not asking about sales, scores or other tangentials... I am asking about the process of project managing and how it was done.

So please, without getting tangential and saying how others wish they had GTs sales numbers, answer the question, how do you say that not recognizing a shortfall of 80% early enough on to do something about it, or choosing not to do something about it is not poor project management?

Again I think you are confusing a lot of things :

1/ You are clearly confusing : bad marketing with overall bad project management, those are two different things, bad marketing is simply a tiny portion of overal game development management, you may even find those who say that marketing could actually be separated from project management (generally it is the publisher doing the marketing not the game developer)

so if we assume kazunori yamauchi did the mistake of keeping secret this premium/standard issue oreven implying to gamers that all announced 1000 cars would be premium, thats poor marketing, nothing to do with poor game development management. nothing to do with inefficiently using 6 years of development time and 80 million $.


2/ You are disappointed because you thought all 1000 cars would be premiums, only to find later on that only 20% of those cars would be premiums. So you decided to accuse yamauchi for badly managing his time, his team and his budget, and for failing to achieve 1000 premium cars, even though no other game developer acheieved this before. are you crazy ? (sorry for this word, but I just dont understatnd your reasoning).

I call what you are saying : sentiments, feelings of disappointments leading to confusing things (confusing bad management with bad marketing) and I am being gentle, because others would accuse you of fanboyism.

I will repeat this for the eniem time :
there are only 200 premium cars in GT5 for a very simple reason : because of limited resources to polyphony digital (140 staff, 6 years of development time, 80 million $) thats what polyphony could have done with those resources.

you think they could have done better with better management, this is for sure, and they will do better with GT6, they learned a lot of things from GT5 development process, everyone learns and improves from his own experiences, nothing special here. Forza developers have been more efficient in developing forza3 compared to forza 2, assassins creed 2 vs 1, mass effect 2 vs 1...etc etc etc this is life get over it...

guys, I will now accuse :

- polyphony digital with bad managing GT1, it took them 6 years of development time and they achieved only 178 cars (500 polygons each) with only 11 tracks, they are rubbish developers...

- Turn 10 developers with bad managing forza 3, they outsourced their car modeling process, yet they only achieved 400 cars why not 1000 ? and with not so well modeled cockpits, why they didnt achieve the same level of cockpit quality like the premium of GT5 prologue ?!! they are bad managers because they could have done better and they promised better results...

- Bungie developers with bad managing Halo 3, a very short solo campaign, with 3 years development time and all the money thrown into developing this game ? with all those resources they create a sub HD game 30 fps with no anti aliasing ?!!! Bungie are bad game developers because they could have done better and they promised better results...

- Guerilla developers with bad managing Killzone 2, more than 4 years of development, with a lot of money and they didnt achieve their target trailer quality of 2005...they arent good developers because they could have done better and they promised better results

- call of duty modern warfare 2 developers, a short solo campaign, previous solo campaigns had more interesting new ideas, bad management spotted ! why ? because they could have done better and they promised a better solo campaign

...etc etc etc

Wait a second ! this is hilarious ! I am discovering that all developers in our planet are bad managers ! because after all they all could have done better and they promised better results...