Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

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What would you have rather had PD do about "premium" vs. "standard" cars

  • Keep everthing the same

    Votes: 324 19.1%
  • Release the game later with all the cars "premium"

    Votes: 213 12.6%
  • Not do "premium" cars at all but focus on other features i.e. dynamic weather

    Votes: 134 7.9%
  • DLC packs after the release

    Votes: 844 49.8%
  • Wished PD didn't get are hopes up, lol

    Votes: 179 10.6%

  • Total voters
    1,694
39,025
But look at the Ford GT; Kaz owns one, and sure enough, in game that car is far, far faster than anything else with similar stats.
Part of that is the fact that GT4's engine was spectacularly poor at modeling wind resistance after a certain velocity threshold was passed. But yeah, stuff like that, plus stuff like the incredible braking disparity between cars and such.
 
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The Nord in Forza was widened to make it better for online play, don't forget.

Honestly, that's a pretty dumb thing to do just to make experience more enjoyable.

I guess from this point we can conclude that FM3 and GT5 had entirely different objectives when being made.

But look at the Ford GT; Kaz owns one, and sure enough, in game that car is far, far faster than anything else with similar stats. Same with the SLR.

Interesting, I never thought that would be the reason, it's no wonder the GT is my most used car behind a few Race cars (Enduros lol).

Do you think that's also the reason behind the GT also sounding much much better (different or unique if not better) than any other car in the game as well?
 
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881
Finland
Finland
Sohvakettu
There isn't any accurate physics engines for games afterall. They will always have to adjust the values by feel in the end in every "simulator".
 

VXR

10,237
United Kingdom
Plymouth, UK
motorforum
There isn't any accurate physics engines for games afterall. They will always have to adjust the values by feel in the end in every "simulator".

QFT.

How can a program accurately portray each car anyway? The car they drive could be under-par or one of those odd cars that are just sweeter to drive than another and the game is skewed. Like I've said about Forza vs GT previously, it's two different team's experience of driving the cars that has influenced the end product. Personally, I feel that FM2 and 3 felt closer to my experiences driving cars than GT4's did, but it doesn't make one more right than the other.
 
There isn't any accurate physics engines for games afterall. They will always have to adjust the values by feel in the end in every "simulator".

That's correct. To be truly accurate you would have to calculate every piece of rubber with the exact surface it was in contact with including temperature and other particulate matter, liquids in the engine moving around, the weight shift due to each piston being where it is... everything is done via forumlas that reasonably closely estimate what would happen and often shortcuts are taken like measuring the location of the center of the car and seeing how farr of the road it is. If it's more than half a cars width off the road, it's assumed all 4 wheels are now off road etc...
 

Shinu

Premium
657
KagoZuchi
They add basic data (engine specs, gears, engine/fuel tank position, weight,air resistance,wing down force and so on), then suspension physics are generated from in-game geometry. Tyres are usually generated by geometry too with a friction coefficient

Well thats how most pc sims do it.
It all ends up precision of the car (wheel position/suspension) and accuracy of data they gather.

When the car ends up in the game they usually tweak it for a better feel (after testing the real one)

Once again thats how PC sims are done and thats how PD do it (Kaz said so himself in some interviews. They also test cars in different conditions)

Even rfactor PRO (that f1 teams use) does that, they just put more detailed info about there cars.
 

McLaren

Premium
41,256
United States
Texas
Partyboy78
Sorry akiraa, I thought that last post was by you (tired as it responded to my response to you) either way, I honestly have no idea how you come up with the ideas you do if all that is true that you say there...I mean I could think maybe terminology is different or something but your logic even beyond that confounds me. Just the basic logic that you would add all dev times of multiple games that share facets with GT5 together as wholes when, by your experience list, you should know that makes no sense at all... you have me uterrly baffled.
Maybe the reason you can't understand him half the time is because his posts are full of run on sentences.
 
4,366
Antarctica
Antarctica
Sorry akiraa, I thought that last post was by you (tired as it responded to my response to you) either way, I honestly have no idea how you come up with the ideas you do if all that is true that you say there...I mean I could think maybe terminology is different or something but your logic even beyond that confounds me. Just the basic logic that you would add all dev times of multiple games that share facets with GT5 together as wholes when, by your experience list, you should know that makes no sense at all... you have me uterrly baffled.

True and now re-reading its not well done that text that I did,that could be attributed to the language change but the main point of that post is point out that the amount of elements that have to be programmed is not ordinary(Even if they are half assets or re used models they need to be re-script for the new engine,which is takes more time)

This is a more clear way of saying my opinion.
 
659
Germany
Germany
ZoidFile
I think DoctorFouad has some good points, in a driving simulation. There are A LOT of vehicle-sided variables and parameters.

These are only A FEW settings out of an GTR2 physics-file, they have to be adjusted for every single car:

[GENERAL]

Inertia
FuelTankPos
FuelTankMotion
Notes
Symmetric
DamageFile
CGHeight
CGRightRange
CGRightSetting
CGRearRange
CGRearSetting
WedgeRange
WedgeSetting
WedgePushrod
GraphicalOffset
FLUndertray
FRUndertray
RLUndertray
RRUndertray
UndertrayParams
FrontTireCompoundSetting
RearTireCompoundSetting
FuelRange
FuelSetting
NumPitstopsRange
NumPitstopsSetting
Pitstop1Range
Pitstop1Setting
Pitstop2Range
Pitstop2Setting
Pitstop3Range
Pitstop3Setting
AIAimSpeedsPerWP
AICornerReductionBase
AIMinPassesPerTick
AIRotationThreshold
AIEvenSuspension
AISpringRate
AIDamperSlow
AIDamperFast
AIDownforceZArm
AIDownforceBias
AITorqueStab
FeelerFlags
FeelerOffset
FeelersAtCGHeight
FeelerFrontLeft
FeelerFrontRight
FeelerRearLeft
FeelerRearRight
FeelerFront
FeelerRear
FeelerRight
FeelerLeft
FeelerTopFrontLeft
FeelerTopFrontRight
FeelerTopRearLeft
FeelerTopRearRight
FeelerBottom

[FRONTWING]

FWRange
FWSetting
FWMaxHeight
FWDragParams
FWLiftParams
FWLiftHeight
FWLiftSideways
FWLeft
FWRight
FWUp
FWDown
FWAft
FWFore
FWRot
FWCenter

[REARWING]

RWRange
RWSetting
RWDragParams
RWLiftParams
RWLiftSideways
RWPeakYaw
RWLeft
RWRight
RWUp
RWDown
RWAft
RWFore
RWRot
RWCenter

[BODYAERO]

BodyDragBase
BodyDragHeightAvg
BodyDragHeightDiff
BodyMaxHeight
BodyLeft
BodyRight
BodyUp
BodyDown
BodyAft
BodyFore
BodyRot
BodyCenter
RadiatorRange
RadiatorSetting
RadiatorDrag
RadiatorLift
BrakeDuctRange
BrakeDuctSetting
BrakeDuctDrag
BrakeDuctLift

[DIFFUSER]

DiffuserBase
DiffuserFrontHeight
DiffuserRake
DiffuserLimits
DiffuserStall
DiffuserSideways
DiffuserCenter

[SUSPENSION]

PhysicalModelFile
ApplySlowToFastDampers
CorrectedInnerSuspHeight
AdjustSuspRates
AlignWheels
FrontWheelTrack
Spurbreite
RearWheelTrack
Spurbreite in mm
LeftWheelBase
RightWheelBase
Radstand
SpringBasedAntiSway
FrontAntiSwayBase
FrontAntiSwayRange
FrontAntiSwaySetting
FrontAntiSwayRate
AllowNoAntiSway
RearAntiSwayBase
RearAntiSwayRange
RearAntiSwaySetting
RearAntiSwayRate
FrontToeInRange
FrontToeInSetting
RearToeInRange
RearToeInSetting
LeftCasterRange
LeftCasterSetting
RightCasterRange
RightCasterSetting

[CONTROLS]

SteeringFFBMult
UpshiftAlgorithm
DownshiftAlgorithm
SteerLockRange
RearBrakeRange
RearBrakeSetting
BrakePressureRange
Bremskrafteinstellung
BrakePressureSetting
HandbrakePressRange
Bremskrafteinstellung
HandbrakePressSetting
AutoDownshiftGripThresh
TractionControlGrip
TractionControlLevel
ABS4Wheel
ABSGrip
ABSLevel

You have to "feel" a lot of those adjustments, to get a proper vehicle behavior. As far as I know KY has really driven a lot of the cars, to help for a realistic recreation.
 

Seismica

Premium
4,346
United Kingdom
Guisborough
GTP_Seismica
The point is, for the standard cars that information was already gathered for previous games, so it did not contribute towards the development time for GT5.

When you take that info out of the GT4 physics engine and implement it into the GT5 physics engine you will get different results. The standard cars will all have a new/different feel to how they did in GT4 and GTPSP.

So when people say "I won't use any of the standard cars because they have no cockpit view. Besides, I drove them all in GTPSP anyway", they're shooting themselves in the foot because they're missing out quite frankly.
 
643
Spazza
The point is, for the standard cars that information was already gathered for previous games, so it did not contribute towards the development time for GT5.

When you take that info out of the GT4 physics engine and implement it into the GT5 physics engine you will get different results. The standard cars will all have a new/different feel to how they did in GT4 and GTPSP.

So when people say "I won't use any of the standard cars because they have no cockpit view. Besides, I drove them all in GTPSP anyway", they're shooting themselves in the foot because they're missing out quite frankly.

Agree completely! 👍 Personally i've learned to not care about the cockpits, i played and loved the previous GT's why not GT5 just because of this missing driving view?, i bet it will feel like a whole new and exciting experience driving these standards with the new physics.
 
659
Germany
Germany
ZoidFile
The point is, for the standard cars that information was already gathered for previous games, so it did not contribute towards the development time for GT5.

Yes but we don't know if GT5 uses any new or different variables, which had to be added to the old cars.

So when people say "I won't use any of the standard cars because they have no cockpit view. Besides, I drove them all in GTPSP anyway", they're shooting themselves in the foot because they're missing out quite frankly.

I will use both, standard and premium cars. A lot of the cars I really look forward to, are standards
 

SlipZtrEm

GTP Admin
Staff Emeritus
27,384
Canada
Toronto
NewAesthetic
SlipZtrEm
Honestly, that's a pretty dumb thing to do just to make experience more enjoyable.

I agree, though I can at least see their reasoning. They always pushed the whole "making it more accssible" angle. Widening the Nurb is a poor decision to us, because yeah, there goes the realism argument. Kaz has mentioned wanting to make the game easier for beginners too; his approach with Standard physics is the answer. And the rather heavy-handed issue of forcing the grippy intermediate tires on us... and having all assists default to the on position. But still, at least he is giving us the option; it seems odd to go through the trouble of adding the Nurb, in T10's case, only to end up modifying it.

I guess from this point we can conclude that FM3 and GT5 had entirely different objectives when being made.

Similar, but yes, different. T10 seems to place a higher importance on this whole newcomer/lesser-skilled/casual thing. GT5 has that as a goal, but it's lower down on the list (thankfully, for us). Customization shares a similar situation (less thankfully). They both have their strengths, for slightly different target markets.

Interesting, I never thought that would be the reason, it's no wonder the GT is my most used car behind a few Race cars (Enduros lol).

Do you think that's also the reason behind the GT also sounding much much better (different or unique if not better) than any other car in the game as well?

I think so, yes, but it's just a guess. Look at what cars Kaz owns and look at them in the game; do they not consistently punch above their weight? The sound thing is a nice bonus side-effect :)

Seeing as how there's been a really heavy push for the SLS with this game, I imagine it to get a similar treatment.

dude,are you sure you dont work for T10? Dan,that you?

His comment was far from some Forza-pushing propaganda, though. Just stating fact; it's wider in game than real life. Whether that's good or bad is up to interpretation. Personally, I don't like it... the Nordschleife has plenty of passing opportunities in normal narrow form.
 
6,804
Netherlands
The Netherlands
I think so, yes, but it's just a guess. Look at what cars Kaz owns and look at them in the game; do they not consistently punch above their weight? The sound thing is a nice bonus side-effect :)

Not sure about this Slip as a biased or unrealistic representation may come back to bite him in his relationship with other manufacturers.
Could be a simple case of these cars being available to him and his team all the time as opposed to a brief stint in a loaned car, making them unintentionally more accurate ( again an assumption ) simply for having driven these cars more often.
Take the SL55 AMG in Prologue, he owns or owned one in real life, it doesn't outperform unrealistically I believe as it feels quite heavy and large ( which it is in real life as well ), it does however sound very nice.;)
 
True and now re-reading its not well done that text that I did,that could be attributed to the language change but the main point of that post is point out that the amount of elements that have to be programmed is not ordinary(Even if they are half assets or re used models they need to be re-script for the new engine,which is takes more time)

This is a more clear way of saying my opinion.

It's true there are a lot of features being put into the game, however that's where the kid in the candy shop analogy comes from... and in 6 years... you kind of expect a lot of features don't you?

The point is, for the standard cars that information was already gathered for previous games, so it did not contribute towards the development time for GT5.

When you take that info out of the GT4 physics engine and implement it into the GT5 physics engine you will get different results. The standard cars will all have a new/different feel to how they did in GT4 and GTPSP.

So when people say "I won't use any of the standard cars because they have no cockpit view. Besides, I drove them all in GTPSP anyway", they're shooting themselves in the foot because they're missing out quite frankly.

I would point out that while I think you are pretty much spot on, that's all still an assumption at this ponit as it's entirely possible the old assets do not contain compatible or complete enough data to be used in the new physics engine and thus may run on their own older or less in depth physics engine to compensate.

That seems unlikely, but we don't know otherwise yet and it would give some creedance to the theory of keeping standard cars and premiums from sharing the same track.
 

Seismica

Premium
4,346
United Kingdom
Guisborough
GTP_Seismica
Yes but we don't know if GT5 uses any new or different variables, which had to be added to the old cars.

That is a good point :)

I would point out that while I think you are pretty much spot on, that's all still an assumption at this ponit as it's entirely possible the old assets do not contain compatible or complete enough data to be used in the new physics engine and thus may run on their own older or less in depth physics engine to compensate.

That seems unlikely, but we don't know otherwise yet and it would give some creedance to the theory of keeping standard cars and premiums from sharing the same track.

I'm fairly certain that standard cars will be able to race against premium cars. There would be little point of including them in the game if the premium cars are the main selling point, because then in reality we would be getting two seperate games. The GT Classic mode that was going to be in GTHD has not been mentioned in relation to GT5 at all.

Like I said, i'm fairly certain we'll be able to have mixed standard/premium races. But, I was also sure that standard cars would have some form of low detailed cockpit view, and I was wrong about that... Very wrong.
 
This is what we call cockpit view on GTPSP, don't fit in the GTA style,not like a FPS,although the new driver will have a cockpit view and comatose-swapping-car- deliriums.

Edit : you guys are not seeing a black frame?

No, I see wheel and interior (albeit low res). In the cop car you can even see the cop laptop.

Maybe this is why we disagree so much, over in Japan even the video looks different! :lol:
 
2,521
United States
South Florida
Organ-Donor
Not only that, modeled including the back seats, horn animation, and hand over hand steering! :D

You can open all the doors and have up to 3 passengers ride with you so of course all the seats/interior should be modeled. The horn animation is present in the regular third person view, as well as the hand over hand steering. The hand over hand is funny because the steering wheel isn't actually moving, only the hands move over a 'still' wheel to make the appearence of steering. The dials don't move, its just a blurry photo of generic dashboard dials, and the steering wheel is more of an octagon than circle. Almost no lighting and textures. Don't know what this was sopposed to prove?
 
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4,366
Antarctica
Antarctica
That's actually a better video... no age verification and 720p that looks good. Same video two, at 2:30 the car driving starts. You honestly don't see the interior and stuff?

Well I see the animation but maybe could be the brightness of my screen,anyway I'm also playing Ace combat joint assault,turns out to be better that I expected,It also has cockpit view !!!
 
39,025
Yes but we don't know if GT5 uses any new or different variables, which had to be added to the old cars.
And, while I sadly don't think PD would actually fix any of them, they may even need to go back and fix all of the Standard cars that weren't modeled correctly, so they would need to redo that information anyways.
 
1,002
South Africa
South Africa
I already knew GTA4 had modelled cockpits...especially the police cruiser.insane that it does.yip,Ace Combat also has cockpits haha.I bet,theres a higher chance Fifa 12 is going to have cockpit view than those standards.frankly,if time was an issue and they couldnt include the black frame one,I wouldve rather them not make go karts and do 800 black frame interiors.