Stupid review!

Toronado

Wow. Are you serious? Lets sit down for a minute:
GT4 has 4 models of the new Lotus Elise. Only 3 of them have any variation of specs.
GT4 has 4 Lotus Esprits. Only 3 of them have any variation of specs.
GT4 has 4 identicle Honda Civics.
GT4 has two identicle Mazda 6s.
GT4 has two sets of two identicle Honda Civic Type R's.
Then we get into multiple flavors of the same car (13 NSX's, 7 Honda S2000's, 7 Mazda Miatas, 4 newer Mazda Miatas, 14 Mazda RX-7 FD's, 4 Mazda RX-8s, 5 3000GT's, 7 FTOs), which could very easily shave off at least 100 cars with the Skylines, Evos and WRXs themselves. My point is that Enthusia's car selection, while less, is FAR more varied than the GT series' has ever been. Then there is the fact that there are no cars that can't be used in races (which shaves off a considerable chunk as well), and cars that are nigh useless (another big chunk) in races (of which Enthusia only has 5-10).

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I was with you on your assessment of the menu layout of GT4, but much of what followed were pretty drastic exaggerations. I mean really, since when does only nine cars that can't be raced out out of over 700 become labeled as "a considerable chunk".

OK, maybe in terms of unique car selections that Enthusia has to offer, nine would be a considerable chunk.

While there are certainly many similar cars in GT4, there are over 500 unique cars (different chassis, engines, drivetrains, wheelbases, weight, power ratings, brakes, body styles) even for those who mistakenly assume ALL Skyline's, Evo's, and WRX's perform at the same level as all other Skyline's, Evo's, and WRX's.

As someone else mentioned earlier, that's the beauty of GT4 in that if you try you can pick-up on the differences between same model cars from different years.

That said, please list the cars in Enthusia that you consider unique. I'll then be happy to list the unique cars in GT4 using the same criteria that you use for listing the ones in Enthusia. If your list is longer I will gladly admit you are right, however, I have a good feeling any GT4 list will be longer... and will have even more cars not listed that offer subtle differences for car fans that can appreciate those differences, no matter how subtle.

Digital-Nitrate

As someone else mentioned earlier, that's the beauty of GT4 in that if you try you can pick-up on the differences between same model cars from different years.

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I understand and respect that, but I don't believe that is enough to count it as a completely different car.

Digital-Nitrate

That said, please list the cars in Enthusia that you consider unique. I'll then be happy to list the unique cars in GT4 using the same criteria that you use for listing the ones in Enthusia.

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The thing is, I consider most (close to all) of the cars in Enthusia to be unique. I know that as such it still won't equal GT4's (see next point), and I just think that Enthusia's effort to fill it with only one or two models of each car is admirable; in contrast to GT4 having many variations of certain cars and counting them as seperate vehicles. Some cars are rather annoying, such as the two Audi R8s, but otherwise I find the variation to be refreshing. In my opinion, the addition of many of those cars to GT4 was time that could have been spent elsewhere in the game in more needy areas.

Digital-Nitrate

I have a good feeling any GT4 list will be longer

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Oh, so do I. That wasn't intended to come off as my point. My point was that people who list GT4 as having oh so many more cars than everything else is missing the point that X amount of cars doesn't necessarily make a better car selection than certain cars do.

Toronado

Wow. Are you serious?

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yes

Lets sit down for a minute:

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GT4 has 4 models of the new Lotus Elise. Only 3 of them have any variation of specs.
GT4 has 4 Lotus Esprits. Only 3 of them have any variation of specs.
GT4 has 4 identicle Honda Civics.
GT4 has two identicle Mazda 6s.
GT4 has two sets of two identicle Honda Civic Type R's.
Then we get into multiple flavors of the same car (13 NSX's, 7 Honda S2000's, 7 Mazda Miatas, 4 newer Mazda Miatas, 14 Mazda RX-7 FD's, 4 Mazda RX-8s, 5 3000GT's, 7 FTOs), which could very easily shave off at least 100 cars with the Skylines, Evos and WRXs themselves. My point is that Enthusia's car selection, while less, is FAR more varied than the GT series' has ever been. Then there is the fact that there are no cars that can't be used in races (which shaves off a considerable chunk as well), and cars that are nigh useless (another big chunk) in races (of which Enthusia only has 5-10).

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Enthusia has 211 cars. GT4 has over 700

Let's do the math: Let's round that "100" you stated, and bring it to 160. Now add in those other cars you said... and double it. about 30-32 cars there. let's see now, 160+32+a few others (30)=222

700-222=478

478 is more than twice as many as Enthusia's 211.
Not to mention those cars you "can't race"
can be driven and used in phototravel, and those "repeats" also have differences.

I must say, the only car I can really see being a true repeat that is unimportant is that special purple skyline. All the others have something different about them, maybe one of them gets different tuning options, or has slightly different looks, softer suspension etc.

Do the math.

Thank you.

MINICOOPER120

Not to mention those cars you "can't race"
can be driven and used in phototravel

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It's nice to know that you turned on "pedantic mode" to count a car that can't be raced in a racing game.

MINICOOPER120

and those "repeats" also have differences.

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And you really think that that is enough to count it as a different car?

MINICOOPER120

Do the math.

Thank you.

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Great job for ignoring the point I made in my previous post, because I quite clearly said that I knew the cars in Enthusia wouldn't be more than the ones in GT4.
Learn to read.

Thank you.

Toronado

I quite clearly said that I knew the cars in Enthusia wouldn't be more than the ones in GT4.

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But you quite clearly said this:

Toronado

My point is that Enthusia's car selection, while less, is FAR more varied than the GT series' has ever been.

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It isn't far more varied, it is less varied AND missing additional cars that are not blatantly different.

Toronado

I just think that Enthusia's effort to fill it with only one or two models of each car is admirable; in contrast to GT4 having many variations of certain cars and counting them as seperate vehicles.

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Is it admirable to offer less unique cars as well as very few cars that are subtlety different? Enthusia has less of both and you consider it admirable? OK.

In my opinion, the addition of many of those cars to GT4 was time that could have been spent elsewhere in the game in more needy areas.

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This is where I sort of agree, or at least I would have agreed had GT4 not had so many unique cars as well. On the other hand, I actually have come to enjoy being able to drive many of these similar cars, and appreciate the effort they made to showing the subtle differences.

Basically GT4 offers the best of both worlds, a huge list of variable performing, historic, classic, and stylistic cars - as well as a large list of cars that are similar (not exactly the same) for fans of those models and driving enthusiasts who appreciate discovering those subtle differences.

I'd say with the fewer unique cars, and even fewer subtlety different cars the developers of Enthusia came up well short in the car selection department by comparison.

Toronado

.
Wow. Are you serious? Lets sit down for a minute:
GT4 has 4 models of the new Lotus Elise. Only 3 of them have any variation of specs.
GT4 has 4 Lotus Esprits. Only 3 of them have any variation of specs.
GT4 has 4 identicle Honda Civics.
GT4 has two identicle Mazda 6s.
GT4 has two sets of two identicle Honda Civic Type R's.
Then we get into multiple flavors of the same car (13 NSX's, 7 Honda S2000's, 7 Mazda Miatas, 4 newer Mazda Miatas, 14 Mazda RX-7 FD's, 4 Mazda RX-8s, 5 3000GT's, 7 FTOs), which could very easily shave off at least 100 cars with the Skylines, Evos and WRXs themselves. My point is that Enthusia's car selection, while less, is FAR more varied than the GT series' has ever been. Then there is the fact that there are no cars that can't be used in races (which shaves off a considerable chunk as well), and cars that are nigh useless (another big chunk) in races (of which Enthusia only has 5-10).

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I don't understand why you had to question me when I said " Take out all the repeats and you still have more than twice as many as Enthusia." And try to prove me wrong, when in the end I was right. THERE ARE MORE CARS IN GT4 THAN ENTHUSIA, EVEN WITHOUT THE REPEATS. Why post to tell me otherwise, when you're basically proving me right?

BTW, about being "pedantic"

I hope you know we had a WRS race a while back, using a Caterham in time trial mode. While we may not be able to race it against others, time trial mode appeals to many as well. Also, Enthusia has time trial mode too. What is the difference? Just don't count those cars in the number of cars that can be raced. It's still in the game, and you can in fact use it. Also, does Enthusia have photo travel? that obviously appeals to a number of people...You can take pics of the caterham there too.

How can you count those unraceable cars as nonexistant? If they didn't count, PD wouldn't have included it.

Digital-Nitrate

It isn't far more varied, it is less varied AND missing additional cars that are not blatantly different.

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Enthusia only has 2 cars that I noticed that are the same model, the Audi TT and Audi R8. That means that each car is a different model of car, and as such, is varied. In relation to GT4, where 2/7ths of the cars are similar to each other, Enthusia is proportionally more varied.

Digital-Nitrate

Is it admirable to offer less unique cars as well as very few cars that are subtlety different? Enthusia has less of both and you consider it admirable? OK.

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But having very few cars that are subtly different contributes to its variation, not detriments from it.

Digital-Nitrate

This is where I sort of agree, or at least I would have agreed had GT4 not had so many unique cars as well. On the other hand, I actually have come to enjoy being able to drive many of these similar cars, and appreciate the effort they made to showing the subtle differences.

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I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think that it is enough to count it as a completely different car.

Digital-Nitrate

I'd say with the fewer unique cars, and even fewer subtlety different cars the developers of Enthusia came up well short in the car selection department by comparison.

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I'd agree to a point. The idea that Enthusia came up short by comparison is true, but in my opinion the inclusion of some cars GT4 notably lacks is a push away from the idea that it is lacking.

MINICOOPER120

I don't understand why you had to question me when I said " Take out all the repeats and you still have more than twice as many as Enthusia." And try to prove me wrong, when in the end I was right. THERE ARE MORE CARS IN GT4 THAN ENTHUSIA, EVEN WITHOUT THE REPEATS. Why post to tell me otherwise, when you're basically proving me right?

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Because I didn't try to tell you otherwise. I was trying to push my idea of variety in relation to GT4.

MINICOOPER120

BTW, about being "pedantic"

I hope you know we had a WRS race a while back, using a Caterham in time trial mode. While we may not be able to race it against others, time trial mode appeals to many as well.

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And this applies to the main portion of the game (GT Mode) how, which we all stared at with frustration when we were told we couldn't race the Caterham or Prowler? Just because you have fun with it in Time Trial mode does not make the fact that it isn't usable in GT mode all potatoes and gravy. As such, you really didn't answer my point on how it was useless for races, as in GT Mode races. I'm not so dumb as you think I seem to be that I don't realise that Time Trials and Photomode (see next point) exist in the game. Which is why I said unraceable and assumed that you knew that I was talking about GT Mode, because that is the only mode it is unraceable in.

MINICOOPER120

You can take pics of the caterham there too.

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And that applies to my point on how it is unraceble how, exactly?

Toronado

Enthusia only has 2 cars that I noticed that are the same model, the Audi TT and Audi R8. That means that each car is a different model of car, and as such, is varied. In relation to GT4, where 2/7ths of the cars are similar to each other, Enthusia is proportionally more varied.

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2 cars in 200. So you are saying that 99% of the cars in Enthusia are blatantly unique, whereas only 75% of those in GT4 are blatanly unique?

Toronado

I'd agree to a point. The idea that Enthusia came up short by comparison is true, but in my opinion the inclusion of some cars GT4 notably lacks is a push away from the idea that it is lacking.

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Any game will be lacking certain cars due to licencing issues, and the tastes of the developers.

In my opinion, the addition of many of those cars to GT4 was time that could have been spent elsewhere in the game in more needy areas.

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To a degree yes. But if it takes 100 hours to model a Skyline, it may only take 1 hour to adjust that model to create a V-spec version. Thus the 200 odd variations could have been created in about the same time it would take to create 2 totally new models. If the loss of just 2 cars results in 200 variations to satisfy those who like that sort of thing, then I say go for it. I just wish they would keep the variations down to about 10% of the total.

Although I may not agree with all the points that the reviewer made in his initial post, I do agree with quite a few of them

1) the AI is RETARDED! I mean, seriously, I've seen better AI in a Super NES game before They could also drive cars that actually came close to rivaling yours, instead of you being insanely overpowered compared to the rest of the pack, or being powerful enough to beat all but that 1 odd-ball that gets a 30-second lead by turn 3

2) the game gets MONOTONOUS very fast, especially when all you're doing is buying cars and tuning them on the test track "Left turn.... left turn.... left turn...." ad nauseum

3) I really don't think that the game has the most impressive selection of tracks. There are quite a few from the previous GT games that I seriously miss, such as SSR11 (GT1 mode). I also wish they had some A -> B races (then again, this is Gran Turismo, not Test Drive)

4) The physics..... Yes, the cars do "Drive" better, but it was soooo much easier to get them to drift in GT3:tup: 👍 I love that game so much for drifting. Sony! Bring it back! Also, what happened to the jumps on Grand Valley East and Trial Mountain from GT1 (arcade mode)? I miss those!

5) Skylines.... How many freaking Skylines are there in this game anyway? They even beat out the number of Lancers in the game.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a good game. It's just that there are places where they could've made improvements still.

Toronado

And this applies to the main portion of the game (GT Mode) how, which we all stared at with frustration when we were told we couldn't race the Caterham or Prowler? Just because you have fun with it in Time Trial mode does not make the fact that it isn't usable in GT mode all potatoes and gravy. As such, you really didn't answer my point on how it was useless for races, as in GT Mode races. I'm not so dumb as you think I seem to be that I don't realise that Time Trials and Photomode (see next point) exist in the game. Which is why I said unraceable and assumed that you knew that I was talking about GT Mode, because that is the only mode it is unraceable in.

And that applies to my point on how it is unraceble how, exactly?

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I'll admit it does get annoying when you want to race a car, and then are told you can't, but I think you're missing my point. GT mode isn't the whole game. You're making a point that you aren't talking about the whole game, but it is indeed the whole game that matters, not just the Simulation/career mode. What I'm wondering is what exactly the whole point is that you are getting at. I don't understand exactly where GT4 is lacking where Enthusia isn't. THat's really all I want to know, and then we'll be able to have a more friendly conversation.

Toronado

Which is why I said unraceable and assumed that you knew that I was talking about GT Mode, because that is the only mode it is unraceable in.

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I still do not understand why you are even making this into some big issue. We are talking about only 9 cars that can't be raced in GT Mode (without modifying the code), of which 7 are clearly either historical or futuristic (or in the case of the Leno Tank Car... just freaky) bonus cars that have no place racing in GT Mode anyway! Regardless, how less than 10 cars out of over 700 ever can be seen as a "considerable chunk" of cars that can't be raced I'll never know, and is really a non issue any way considering only two of those nine cars would even belong in GT Mode races.

Enthusia only has 2 cars that I noticed that are the same model, the Audi TT and Audi R8. That means that each car is a different model of car, and as such, is varied. In relation to GT4, where 2/7ths of the cars are similar to each other, Enthusia is proportionally more varied.

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Proportionally? Why would that matter one bit? With your logic, if a game came out with 0 similar cars, but only 10 cars in total that would be the best as it would be proportionally more than Enthusia...

It's about what cars are available to drive. GT4 has many more UNIQUE cars than Enthusia with a much wider variety ranging from very early classics, to modern concept cars, from full-sized trucks to microcars, from station wagons to exotic sports cars, from Rally cars to Formula 1, and race cars from over two dozen different classes. In addition, GT4 ALSO offers players a wide range of similar model cars as well. It's a win win scenario which Enthusia fails to deliver by comparison.

One more issue regarding so-called same model cars in GT4. We would see a lot less talk of this if some of the complainers took a closer look at some of these so-called same model cars in GT4. For instance, anyone who thinks the 1991 Acura NSX is the same car as the 2004 NSX and performs the same is terribly misinformed. Yes, there are "some" cars in GT4 that are VERY similar, but they are the exception, not the rule, and even among similar cars, there are many that are really quite different after all.

Heck, even some of the same year models have some very significant differences. For instance the 2002 Alfa 147's (2.0 & GTA). One has an inline 4-cylinder 1970cc engine, and the other has a V6 3180cc engine. They have different dimensions, weights, and perform very differently. There are many examples like this in GT4... that unfortunately Enthusia left out.

Some love to bring up Skylines as all being the same, when in fact it would take a very long time to list all the many differences that effect their performance and make them unique.



If you really want to talk about variety:

• How many cars in Enthusia were made before 1990? GT4 has over 140 of them.
• How many cars in Enthusia are 25 years or older? GT4 has over 60 of them.
• How many concept cars are in Enthusia? GT4 has over 30 of them.
• How many American, German, and British cars are in Enthusia? GT4 has over 200 of them.
• How many French cars are in Enthusia? GT4 has over 30.
• How many different manufacturers are represented in Enthusia? GT4 has over 90.
• How many countries are represented in Enthusia's list of manufacturers? GT4 has cars from 13 different countries.

GT4 has a wide range of different class cars, like trucks, SUVs, vans, crossovers/hybrids, wagons, sedans, coupes, muscle cars, convertibles, GT's, exotics, sports cars, roadsters, boxers, hatchbacks, microcars... and that's just the street cars.

There are about 125 race cars from about 30 different classifications in GT4, including Formula 1, LMP1/LMP900, LMGTP, Group C, Can-Am, LMGT1, GTS/GT2, GT4, DTM Masters, DTM FIA Class 1, ALMS, ETCC/WTCC, JGTC 500, JGTC 300, D1GP, JTCC, JGT Enduro, WRC, Rally Group A, Rally Group B, Rally Group 4, Rally Group 2, Pikes Peak, Paris Dakar, and others! How about Enthusia?

Seriously, GT4 has a much wider variety of cars than Enthusia representing more eras, classifications, manufacturers, models, and from more countries. GT4 has more unique cars than Enthusia, and it has more similar cars than Enthusia.


BTW: It's not just Enthusia either, which does have its strong points. I would challenge anyone to find any current driving game that has more cars and a wider variety of types of cars than GT4.

Toronado

They [= the menus] are cluttered. They are poorly laid out. They have no explanation. And there are far too many of them. GT3's menu system was perhaps simplistic, but it was far, far easier to navigate.

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Can you give a specific example, please?

Toronado

I did an extensive test of fuel effieciency between the two BMW 130s, and I found that GT4 didn't moel diesel engines very well. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree.

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What kind of test did you do?

Digital-Nitrate

I would challenge anyone to find any current driving game that has more cars and a wider variety of types of cars than GT4.

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Aw, one word away from being proven wrong by Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit/High Stakes and their truly gargantuan list of cars available for download off the internet.

Anyway, I thought you guys might be interested in this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1940142&postcount=13

In making that list, I took great liberties in mixing cars together (yes, even roadcar-based racecars are mixed in with their street-legal brethren), but it still offers insight into how many copies were put into GT4.

Having variations of a certain model -- with different performance attributes, a different bodykit, whatever -- is nice, but the inclusion of those variations should never cause other, more notable cars to be excluded from a game. That's my stance.

the Interceptor

Can you give a specific example, please?

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Roaming the main map in Gran Turismo mode is annoying, especially because it doesn't all fit on a single, unmoving screen, and directional inputs don't always take you where you think they would take you. I'd much rather have a list of menu items.

Wolfe

Roaming the main map in Gran Turismo mode is annoying, especially because it doesn't all fit on a single, unmoving screen, and directional inputs don't always take you where you think they would take you. I'd much rather have a list of menu items.

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I don't agree. I prefer this to a (long) list of menu items. I agree that directional inputs do not always take you where you think they would, but after 5 minutes, you know how to navigate it. Apart from that, there are shortcuts like L1 (takes you home) and L2 (takes you to the country the car you're sitting in is from), you can also navigate diagonally, and the countries on the map are placed like on a standard map of the world. I actually find it quite easy to navigate and good-looking, even if it may not be perfect to the last extent.

Regards
the Interceptor

Wolfe

In making that list, I took great liberties in mixing cars together (yes, even roadcar-based racecars are mixed in with their street-legal brethren), but it still offers insight into how many copies were put into GT4.

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Yes... quite a lot of liberty was taken, and it still doesn't offer insight into how many copies were put into GT4 because a copy is a copy. While in some of those cases there are a lot of similarities, but not nearly as much as your list suggests.

Having variations of a certain model -- with different performance attributes, a different bodykit, whatever -- is nice, but the inclusion of those variations should never cause other, more notable cars to be excluded from a game. That's my stance.

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And considering the amount of unique cars in GT4 suggests that they didn't exclude nearly as many cars as games like Enthusia, Forza, Live for Speed, PGR, etc.

Unless a game includes every car ever made, it will never satisfy every single player out there, however, more so than any of these other games, GT4 succeeded in offering the largest and widest variety of cars.

Roaming the main map in Gran Turismo mode is annoying, especially because it doesn't all fit on a single, unmoving screen, and directional inputs don't always take you where you think they would take you. I'd much rather have a list of menu items.

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I mostly agree. While the shortcut buttons in map mode do help, I would have much preferred a Sub-menu list that might have been organized like this:

HOME:

DEALERS:

• New:
• Used:

TRACKS:

• Real World Circuits:
• Original Courses:
• City Courses:
• Driving Park:
• Dirt & Snow:

EVENTS:

• Beginner Hall:
• Professional Hall:
• Extreme Hall:
• Endurance Hall:
• American Hall:
• European Hall:
• Japanese Hall:
• Special Conditions Hall:

MISC:

• GT Auto:
• License Hall:
• Mission Hall:
• Photo Travel:
• Replay Theater:
• Music Theater:

The map menu isn't what I would consider a problem with the game, just not what I personally would have preferred.

I agree that the menu for GT4 isn't great.
However, look deeper and it's not all that bad. In fact, I like the idea behind the system but I would like to see them try to impliment the system in a different way (leaning closer to the free roaming GUI system we use for compluters).

For the most part, I believe GT4 is amazing. There are complaints I have but none of them are important enough to push me away from GT and towards another console game.

Really, there aren't many complaints that matter to me when it comes to GT4... The lack of GT mode racing is probably the most important complaint for me.
Specifically, what I would like to see is this...

More one-make races- Instead of going to the manufacturer and possibly getting a one make race, there should have been a "one make" race option just like family cup.

More specialized races- I really feel like the GTWC and the PD Cup are both prime examples of PD using a horrible race line-up. The cars in both of those events need to be much more similar in car type.

More Theme Based Races- I like many of the themes used and some of them are very well executed (such as the professional hall's NA and Turbo Cups). However, there aren't enough of these theme based races to keep us racing for very long.

More Enduros- There are no enduro races for many of the best courses.

Shorter Enduros- I'm a believer that B-spec shouldn't even be in this game. 24hour races are a joke when there's no weather, lighting, or track condition changes. That said, I believe there should be more enduros and they should all be short enough to be raced entirely in A-spec in one sitting (6 hours at most).

Other than those complaints regarding the GT Mode race selections, I'm pretty happy with the game.

Btw, digital nitrate...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2550983&postcount=101
That post earned you +rep from me. 👍
Keep it up.

You guys are joking, right? You let this pointless topic drag on for 6 pages. If you don't like GT4, and think that the game you play is better. Why should we be be subject to hear your argument? Posting "I hate GT4" on a website called "GT Planet" is absolutely idiotic, AT BEST.

So that guy made a bad review of GT4, who cares? It scored high with GameSpot, IGN, and just about every where else, it even is a greatest hits title. So this one no body is that huge of a problem?

Let it go?

Agreed. Sometimes people don't realize that telling us Enthusia or Need for Speed is better, isn't going to magically make us hate GT and go play their game for the rest of their life. Telling us their oppinion is fine, but when they start to argue about who is right it gets annoying. I'll admit I kinda got pulled into this too, but I was hoping do have a nice discussion with Tornado, not have him call me pedantic because I still count a car that's in the game, just not raceable.

Just one point about the menus:

Surely you too have been frustrated when you try to tune your car and end up with something like this:
Ok, Let's buy this baby!
Would you like to buy this part?
Yes.
Are you sure?
Yes.
Did you mean to press X just now, or did you mean to press square?
Um, X?
Can you repeat that?
X!
You have purchased this part. Do you like it?
Uh, that's why I bought it...
Don't talk back to me...
OK...
Good... Now do you want this part installed or not?
Yes.
Are you sure?
Yes.
Are you really sure?
Yes...
Are you sure you meant to say you were sure?
YES!!!
Sorry, the status of your memory card has changed randomly, please reset your PS2 and delete this gamesave.
!!!
Do you want to kill GT4?
Yes.

Ahh, it's fun making fun of GT4's menus, you can create pretty funny (yet true) stories.

Thanks Kent.

MINICOOPER120

Ahh, it's fun making fun of GT4's menus, you can create pretty funny (yet true) stories.

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I just thought of something (slightly off-topic), what if they allowed for custom menu layouts for GT5? I can not imagine that would be too dificult to impliment, and the player could then save their settings on the PS3's HDD. That said, even without it, we are just talking menu preferences here. If that is worth complaining heavily about, then it probably means little else is.

hmm, interesting idea. It's just that you have a choice between things like being able to have one last chance when you want to exit a race, or being able to exit faster when you want to. PD just wants to be sure so that you don't get frustrated and kill everything. IT's just they may have taken it a bit too far...

Digital-Nitrate

Yes... quite a lot of liberty was taken, and it still doesn't offer insight into how many copies were put into GT4 because a copy is a copy. While in some of those cases there are a lot of similarities, but not nearly as much as your list suggests.

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My thought was that for many people, if you don't really care about a car, then you won't care if the racing version is available too, or any other version that differs drastically in performance but looks about the same. For example, a stereotypical american car fan wouldn't care if the JGTC Supra was vastly different from the ordinary Supra RZ. They're still both Supras, with the same chassis and basic body shape.

Digital-Nitrate

And considering the amount of unique cars in GT4 suggests that they didn't exclude nearly as many cars as games like Enthusia, Forza, Live for Speed, PGR, etc.

Unless a game includes every car ever made, it will never satisfy every single player out there, however, more so than any of these other games, GT4 succeeded in offering the largest and widest variety of cars.

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Having a boatload of cars isn't the same thing as offering a wide variety of cars. For example, Enthusia and GT4 are relatively poor games to turn to if you primarily enjoy driving European or american cars, and Live for Speed is a terrible sim to turn to if you want to drive real-world licensed cars.

That said, GT4 does offer a decent variety of cars, but PGR2/3 may have it beat, with PGR2's various categories and PGR3's obscure exotics. It depends on what kind of cars you're looking for.

-Cheezman-

You guys are joking, right? You let this pointless topic drag on for 6 pages. If you don't like GT4, and think that the game you play is better. Why should we be be subject to hear your argument? Posting "I hate GT4" on a website called "GT Planet" is absolutely idiotic, AT BEST.

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Since when did this place turn into GT4Planet? I can't think of any GT4 nay-sayer on this forum that doesn't like GT3 or GT2. I still pull out my copy of GT3 now and then and play a few races in arcade mode.

On top of that, I don't recall any entry in this forum's AUP that states "You may only post positive things. Negativity is disallowed, no matter how well thought-out or informed the opinion may be, even if the opinion is expressed in a civil manner."

Why should we (or anyone else) be forced to keep quiet just because you disagree with us?

MINICOOPER120

Agreed. Sometimes people don't realize that telling us Enthusia or Need for Speed is better, isn't going to magically make us hate GT and go play their game for the rest of their life.

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If I can cause someone to actually think critically about GT4 instead of automatically assuming that it's the best there is, regardless of whether or not their opinion changes, then I'm happy.

MINICOOPER120

Telling us their oppinion is fine, but when they start to argue about who is right it gets annoying.

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Arguments require two sides.

I know Wolfe, I don't think GT4 is the best there is. Overall, I like it the most, but certain things about the game aren't as good as other games. In fact, since I first got on this site, your opinions have probably pushed me the most to get and enjoy Enthusia. I must say it's a good game, but I still prefer GT4, but that's another arguement...

Also, when somebody trying to prove their opinion by giving facts, then it's a different story. When you argue with someone because they was trying to tell everyone else about their opinion, and someone disagrees, you can have a friendly arguement about the diverity in both games. That kind of argument just to show your opinion is fine in my eyes.

Then there's the harsher arguements. When one person tells his opinion, and someone else says "I disagree, here's why:" And the first member snaps back and says they are wrong, and starts name calling, and gets all "you are an idiot" about it, that's when I have a problem.

@Wolfe, it's not like you can't post your opinion, but, it seems like when ever some ones says they like GT4, you start a flame war. Why waste your time on it? You're "Live For Speed is God" post aren't going to change people's opinions.

MINICOOPER120

I know Wolfe, I don't think GT4 is the best there is. Overall, I like it the most, but certain things about the game aren't as good as other games. In fact, since I first got on this site, your opinions have probably pushed me the most to get and enjoy Enthusia. I must say it's a good game, but I still prefer GT4, but that's another arguement...

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Heh. Awesome.

MINICOOPER120

Also, when somebody trying to prove their opinion by giving facts, then it's a different story. When you argue with someone because they was trying to tell everyone else about their opinion, and someone disagrees, you can have a friendly arguement about the diverity in both games. That kind of argument just to show your opinion is fine in my eyes.

Then there's the harsher arguements. When one person tells his opinion, and someone else says "I disagree, here's why:" And the first member snaps back and says they are wrong, and starts name calling, and gets all "you are an idiot" about it, that's when I have a problem.

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Ah, I see what you mean now.

-Cheezman-

@Wolfe, it's not like you can't post your opinion, but, it seems like when ever some ones says they like GT4, you start a flame war.

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I don't think I've ever told someone that they're wrong for liking GT4. If someone said, "I like GT4," I couldn't say, "I disagree. You don't like GT4." It's the reasons and the opinions that back up someone's decision to like GT4, most often and most importantly in the area of physics, that I respond to.

Also, I don't think I've ever gone to the point of flaming someone over their opinion -- perhaps over personal attacks they may have thrown at me, or a condescending attitude they've projected, but not for their opinion alone. Of course there's the fact that the textual format of the internet muddies things up, and there's also the fact that the widespread adoration for GT4's physics is unimaginably mindboggling to me, so my words to another GTP user may come off as harsh. If so, I apologize.

Finally, keep in mind that I don't take my rants as seriously as you might think -- try to imagine Jeremy Clarkson reading the words of my rants (from watching Top Gear, he's no doubt influenced me), and they might not seem so offensive (depending on whether or not you find Jeremy funny).

To put it another way, I'm expressing my real opinions, but hyperbole is often the name of the game.

Come to think of it, I wonder how many people think that I pound all of this stuff into my keyboard, with bloodshot eyes, a hideous scowl on my face, and steam shooting out of my ears...or something to that effect.

-Cheezman-

Why waste your time on it? You're "Live For Speed is God" post aren't going to change people's opinions.

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Probably not, but then again, many members here are likely to post "GT4 is God," and we all know that won't change people's opinions either, because the majority of the gaming community already believes it.

As I already said in my last post, all I really ask out of other members is that they actually think about why they think GT4 is the best, or why they like it, or whatever their opinion is. If they decide to try some of the alternatives I recommend, as MINICOOPER120 did, then that's even better. They don't even have to like the other games, but it gives their arguments more credibility when it comes time to compare them to GT4, and I appreciate that from my "debate partners."

I agree with peterb for the most part.

1. The so called "Artificial Intellegence" should be called "A.D." (Artificial Dumb@sses.) One of them just made me loose a race by giving me a PIT manuever and didn't notice that my Toyota MR2 S/C was in front of him doing a drift. Next thing you know, I was stuck digging up sand castles and mowing the lawn. PD couldn't have added more work to the damn computer drivers??

2. There are too many skylines. Theres about 55 Skylines and they should get rid of atleast 20. They couldv'e added many other great cars. (A Lotus Elise GT1 or Ram SRT-10? 💡 ) Most of the skylines are very similar in specs, colors, handling, weight, etc.

3. There are alot of liscence tests. I believe that the shouldv'e kept the number of tests down to the amount that GT3 had. You can spend hours on trying to complete this if you are a novice driver.

4. Default TCS and ASM on each car is annoying. I usually go and buy alot of used cars. That means i have to give each one an oil change, 50,000Cr spent on that rigidity thing, and then guess what? Driving Aids always have to get turned off. Its not like every car in the world come with TCS and ASM.

5. I was expecting a little more off of this game. (Racing Modifications like in GT2, smarter AI, etc.) It turns out this game was nothing that I thought it was going to be, except for better graphics and more cars. I wish that this game had GT2 features (racing modifications, red rock valley, grindelwald etc.) and GT3 features (more drifting, more in depth tuning, SS11, Rome, and smokey mountain circuits.)

6. I thought that the Nurburgring or de la sarthe 24 hour races would atleast go into night time and into the morning. I was wrong again.

7. Now theres cars that you can't race other people in on GT mode, and they are the cars that you wish you could race other people in. (Catherham FireBlade or whatever the name of that go-kart is.) Fantastic...

8. PD call the grand canyon a "THRILLING" course racing on sheer cliffs. How thrilling is it if you can't fall off the board or rollover/flip your car?

9. The pictures have led me on to buying this game. Now I feel as though I got scammed when I bought this game.

10. This game gets real boring after a while. They should add more rewards to make us want to finish this game, like a prize car for when you reach 10%, 20% 30% 40% etc.

11. There should be less menus so you can get to where you want to go faster.

12. GT Auto... Why add animations for oil changes and car washes? They take way longer than in GT3. Also why the old rims that you swapped away just disappear? What a rip-off.

13. Tuning your car now takes longer than ever. Theres a loading screen for each part too.

14. Those hideous wings. Will it kill PD to add wings with more style and maybe body kits? I don't care if it will reduce the amount of cars in this game. I'm not asking for another need for speed but why add wings and rims but no body kits?

15. The rear view mirror isn't helpful at all it makes everything look far and the mirror doesn't even have anywhere near as much graphics and clarity as looking back, but looking back can make you loose focus on whats in front of you.

16. Can't fix engine damage/ HP loss.

17. No Turbo F1's. 🤬

18. The list can go on and on.

PD I'm not mad at y'all, but I'm disappointed. 👎

Wolfe

Heh. Awesome.

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Heck, I even play and very much enjoy Live For Speed quite a bit.

Sometimes I wish lisencing and time wasn't an issue, and in 20 seconds a company was able to design the perfect racing sim, with every car and 20 different modes, all different.
Live for speed is amazing for a computer, but sometimes the crash physics get annoying...
GT4 has such a huge range of interesting cars, and great graphics, but they have yet to nail the physics, and we're still waiting for damage...
Enthusia: Amazing Physics. Kinda awkward gameplay, but it's relly fun taking a big van, and going over the hill in Rev City to try and tip it over. I've tried before, and got two wheels way up in the air...

Also, as much as I hate to say it () forza has some good points too, like damage, but I never thought it was that great, and nothing else really appeals to me very much. Gameplay is OK, and I suppose tuning is a good point, but so few cars and nothing interesting...

So, if only someone would combine all the good points and make the absolute best game ever. I just happen to think that if that ever happened, it would be PD who made it...

MINICOOPER120

I just happen to think that if that ever happened, it would be PD who made it...

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I'm pulling for Live for Speed S3 with a supportive, talented, and dedicated modding community.

Well, if it was anyone, it would be LFS or PD, but I just find that PD is more determined to keep the goal behind the game: teaching car people even more about cars while letting them have an extremely enjoyable experience. It get's bring in LFS with so few cars, I rarely drive anything different than the UF1. THe autocross is a big plus though, but I don't think they focus enough on what I find important, the history and fun of the game, not the features. I would love LFS and never play anything else if it had the cars of GT4 (just think; imagine if the crators of LFS joined forces with PD to help out with the physics and features )

Wolfe

Having a boatload of cars isn't the same thing as offering a wide variety of cars.

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No one said that it does, only that GT4 offers both a boatload of cars and a wide variety of cars, more so than any other current driving simulator.

Wolfe

For example, Enthusia and GT4 are relatively poor games to turn to if you primarily enjoy driving European or american cars, and Live for Speed is a terrible sim to turn to if you want to drive real-world licensed cars.

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Enthusia yes, but GT4??? It's comments like that, and on other aspects about GT4, especially when compared to other games that suggest that you either do not even know about all the cars and features in GT4, or are simply trying to mislead people.

Just to refresh your memory...

GT4's selection of ONLY European & American cars:

• __9 Different Countries
• _59 Different Makes
• 276 Different Models
  
• 210 Different Production Street Cars
• _88 Different Production Street Cars made between 1949 and 1999
• _17 Different Concept Cars
• _49 Different Race Cars
• _27 Different Race Cars made before the year 2000 (earliest was 1937)
• _20 Different Race Car Classifications
• _11 Different Rally Race Cars

As has already been mentioned... but not adressed by yourself, GT4 also offers an amazingly wide variety of car types including trucks, SUVs, vans, crossovers/hybrids, wagons, sedans, coupes, muscle cars, convertibles, GT's, exotics, sports cars, roadsters, boxers, hatchbacks, microcars, etc.

GT4 also offers a wide variety of concepts, classics, and race car classifications.

I asked a week ago to try and come up with any current driving simulator game that has more cars or a wider variety of cars than GT4. Not surprisingly, no game has been mentioned.