The Line of Customization: When enough is enough (If it's even added)

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Yeah your right, he talked about them a long time ago and recently, and recently he talked about it being more in depth than GT4 but it it's been a while since engine swaps were mentioned. So here's hoping they made it, but not everything does.
 
I really like Nascar 09's ability to make skins in Photoshop and upload them to your cars. So then there's absolutely no limit to what you can do. It also wouldn't be a hard feature for PD to implement either, much easier than adding a whole livery editor. Maybe not that user friendly, but I think that it suits GT better that way.
 
Tompie913
I really like Nascar 09's ability to make skins in Photoshop and upload them to your cars. So then there's absolutely no limit to what you can do. It also wouldn't be a hard feature for PD to implement either, much easier than adding a whole livery editor. Maybe not that user friendly, but I think that it suits GT better that way.
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oh god yes...this would be an absolute DREAM...the ability to use photoshop or some other image editor...put images on your PS3 HDD and upload them to the game would be absolutely killer!!

PS is an immensely more powerful tool than the livery editor in Forza and im just plain more proficient with it...things like manufacturer decals, sponsor decals etc would be SO much easier if we could upload images rather than having to create them using geometric shapes...


oh and one final thing about modifications...carbon fiber...PLEASE oh PLEASE! Kaz old buddy...allow me to install stock style carbon fiber parts on my cars!!...

i love in Forza taking my stock cars and giving them carbon fiber hoods, and lips and wings...but for crying out loud the fact that i have to CREATE a giant sticker of carbon fiber...place it on the part i want to be carbon fiber...and then mask it off with stickers that match my paint color is time consuming and annoying!!
 
Tenacious D
While true that GT5 will succeed and sell incredibly well with just the customizations from GT4, that's hardly saying much about the quality and depth of the game.

GT1, 2, 3 and 4 sold in ridiculous numbers. So obviously based on that and gamer reception, we don't need in GT5:
  • Improved graphics over the level achieved by GT4
  • Improved physics and sound
  • Improved bot A.I.
  • More than 6 cars per race
  • Photo Mode, or at least improved Photo Mode
  • Online play
  • Drifting
  • Weather
  • Night racing
  • Damage
  • Any new cars and tracks
Amirite? ;)
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Now you're mixing everything just for the sake of argument.

Restating my point again:

1st - what I like and think:

a) I'm not against visual personalization or liveries, (or damage for that mater). But I couldn't care less if they are in or not (some people don't get this...). I'm 100% in favor of parts/upgrades and performance personalizations.

b) It's not mandatory at all, or that relevant for a GT game to have the 1st (visual personalization), but indispensable to have the 2nd (parts/upgrades/performance)


2nd what I think will happen, despite what I like:

a) Visual personalization if it happens it will be very limited, because it's GT. It's not a "core" feature, and to be included it would have to be done to a level of perfection it would delay the game even further. But you can always use other games to play dress-up and show off.

b) There are not that many people wanting hardcore visual personalization and even less using it (more than a couple of times just to see how it works, or just changing car colors). So putting liveries (and damage) in is just KZ listening to people whining and throwing them a bone, even knowing people turn it off most of the time (damage), and only a few are going to "waste" time playing with visual personalization, when there is so much to do in a game that is going to be as huge as GT5 is expected to be.

Again, the bottom line is that the game is intended to be the real driving simulator. Not a crashing simulator, or a visual personalization simulator. There are other good titles out there that do that, if it's that important to use them, then play those titles.

Those are "nice to have" features and added bonuses that would make the game even better, now in GT5 or in future releases, but the game would/will not fail without them. Far from it.
 
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Couldn't agree more:tup:. I really don't want PD to waste their time going through 1000 cars making body parts for them. Simple upgrades like carbon fibre (just as a texture, keep the stock body shapes,could be a performance part, saves weight),Splitters, Spoilers, and Rims would satisfy me. Livery editor wouldn't be too hard to include either. but yeah PD could spend their time more wisely.
 
And at the risk of mixing things even more, but to add a bit more perspective... Even if Porsche doesn't make it into the game as expected, and it is one of the most important sports car manufactures and a huge part of automotive goodness and history that will be seriously missed (like it or not), the game still wont fail. In sales or to me personally. There will be so much in the game already that it will be mostly overlooked or forgotten most of the time. And I'm a Porsche fan, having them would just be one step closer to perfection.

Now next to that, visual personalization is really nothing. And for as much as you may love it and think it's that important right now, it won't be that missed. It would be nice to have, and one step closer to a full experience and perfection, but let's keep it in perspective. It's not that important.
 
hornet_burnout
b) There are not that many people wanting hardcore visual personalization and even less using it (more than a couple of times just to see how it works, or just changing car colors). So putting liveries (and damage) in is just KZ listening to people whining and throwing them a bone, even knowing people turn it off most of the time (damage), and only a few are going to "waste" time playing with visual personalization, when there is so much to do in a game that is going to be as huge as GT5 is expected to be.
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All you have to do is look at how many people use visual editors in other games to see that a large number of simulation racing fans use (and probably want) livery editors.

I'm curious though, how did you come to the conclusion that there aren't many people wanting visual personalisation?
 
Joey D
(...)I'm curious though, how did you come to the conclusion that there aren't many people wanting visual personalisation?
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I know I read it somewhere a long time ago when there was a lot a fuss about damage going on, but I can't recall where and who said it. But it was something like damage was nr 1 feature requested and liveries was not in the top ten.

...today it may be different with people getting used to playing online in clubs or clans, and be more missed than what I stated, I'll grant you that.

Still, you how long PD takes to put something new like that into the the game, so (my 2nd point, and besides my personal opinion) don't expect it to be in.
 
hornet_burnout
I know I read it somewhere a long time ago when there was a lot a fuss about damage going on, but I can't recall where and who said it. But it was something like damage was nr 1 feature requested and liveries was not in the top ten.

...today it may be different with people getting used to playing online in clubs or clans, and be more missed than what I stated, I'll grant you that.

Still, you how long PD takes to put something new like that into the the game, so (my 2nd point, and besides my personal opinion) don't expect it to be in.
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So you off handedly read it somewhere, but don't know where, who said it, when it even was or in what context they were talking about. Then you attempt to preach your opinion as face based on this mysterious source as fact? Really?
 
Joey D
So you off handedly read it somewhere, but don't know where, who said it, when it even was or in what context they were talking about. Then you attempt to preach your opinion as face based on this mysterious source as fact? Really?
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No, it's my opinion on what I think will happen based on what I've read all over. And I'm not preaching, or trying to convince anyone, just re-stating a point (opinion) that keeps being miss quoted or distorted.
 
hornet_burnout
No, it's my opinion on what I think will happen based on what I've read all over. And I'm not preaching, or trying to convince anyone, just re-stating a point (opinion) that keeps being miss quoted or distorted.
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So in your opinion I've wasted my time creating a livery. In all due respect I don't care about your opinion on me wasting my time on a livery that I will apreciate. As for most people turning off damage well good luck to them because I certainly am not.
 
Spagetti69
So in your opinion I've wasted my time creating a livery. In all due respect I don't care about your opinion on me wasting my time on a livery that I will apreciate. As for most people turning off damage well good luck to them because I certainly am not.
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Firstly, again distorting what I said. "Wasted" was between comas due to a lack of better word and is not to be taken literally.

Secondly, a forum is where you state and form opinions and we should respect other peoples opinions, as I do, and have come to understand why liveries are so important to some people.

Joey D
So you off handedly read it somewhere, but don't know where, who said it, when it even was or in what context they were talking about. Then you attempt to preach your opinion as face based on this mysterious source as fact? Really?
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I was only stating it from memory but I think I was pretty close:

http://ideas.gtplanet.net/forums/5314-gtplanet-ideas

Dynamic weather 1st (2580 votes)
Damage nr 2, (2554, close and I think it was 1st for a long time)
Livery editor in 15th (620 votes)
 
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Joey D
That's hardly the GT fan base. I know we are all GT fans to a degree here but the game sells in the millions. The votes of a couple thousand people is a pretty poor sample.
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Polls and feedback on GT Planet (the largest online GT comunity) are not a measure of what GT fans want for GT? Now you're just in denial :)

Anyway, I just wanted to show you that I was not making this up. It has been measured, and most wanted features have been mentioned in KZ's interviews, damage being on top, and livery editor not.

Based on it, I think performance and parts modification will most likely be in GT5, and liveries not. And I'm basing this opinion on everything I read about the game and the subject at hand, the way PD works, and how KZ seams to look at the game series, and not my personal preferences.

Now why don't all you guys show me (us) hard data saying otherwise? Something besides the phrase "everyone wants this" or "the game will fail without it" to support the point and bring added value to this discussion?

As I said, I've come to understand why many want it and respect the opinion, but I still think "everyone" means "me and my mates", and that this will not make GT5 fail.
 
So top of the poll is something that most people will turn off.
That sums it all up.
 
Spagetti69
So top of the poll is something that most people will turn off.
That sums it all up.
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Actually 2nd (Dynamic weather 1st) and that is KZ's opinion. He said on an interview (please don't force me to dig it up) that they studied player behaviour on other games and found that even if this is something people really want, and will play with for a bit, then they will turn it off because it will make racing harder.

I for one don't miss it, and don't think it's that important I can't live without it. However I think that if it get's in there and is as good as we'd expect, it shouldn't be possible to turn it off, and I for one will leave it on.
 
hornet_burnout
Polls and feedback on GT Planet (the largest online GT comunity) are not a measure of what GT fans want for GT? Now you're just in denial :)
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No it's not a measure of what all GT fans want, it's a measure of what a small group of them want. It's a poll with minimal participation compared to the sales number of GT. GT games sell in the millions as I've said and a poll with a couple thousand votes != the whole GT fan base. Plus GTPlanet is the largest English based GT forum, there are a lot of others out there making up other languages.

Like I said I had a problem with you voicing opinion as fact, something you are still attempting to do. Even the poll was of just opinions so really there isn't much to gather out of it.

hornet_burnout
Now why don't all you guys show me (us) hard data saying otherwise? Something besides the phrase "everyone wants this" or "the game will fail without it" to support the point and bring added value to this discussion?
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Look at the Forza community along with every PC racing sim out there and see how many people create custom liveries and if they don't create them at least look at how many people use them.

And an opinion poll on a GT website is not hard data, it's a biased sample from a very small group of people.
 
I do believe you when you say Kaz studied player behaviour on other games. What interests me is what games he done his study on, obviously not forza or other games with similar editors. The reason I say this is that if he did he would know people would want it in. I think he's only studied other games relating to damage. He has got the impression that people want it and then they will turn it off seems a bit odd.

As for the poll day and night racing are near the top but the ability to turn on your headlights near the bottom. This is confusing.
 
Joey D
No it's not a measure of what all GT fans want, it's a measure of what a small group of them want. It's a poll with minimal participation compared to the sales number of GT. GT games sell in the millions as I've said and a poll with a couple thousand votes != the whole GT fan base. Plus GTPlanet is the largest English based GT forum, there are a lot of others out there making up other languages.
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Polls and surveys are by definition a measure of a small sample to ascertain a general opinion. So yes, it's relevant, and GT Planet is a good place to get a feel for what the GT community feels, and PD keeps an eye on forums and on ours in particular. And is still way better than any "fact" anyone else defending liveries has shown.

Joey D
Like I said I had a problem with you voicing opinion as fact, something you are still attempting to do. Even the poll was of just opinions so really there isn't much to gather out of it.
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Voice opinions is what people do in forums.

Joey D
Look at the Forza community along with every PC racing sim out there and see how many people create custom liveries and if they don't create them at least look at how many people use them.
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No, you do it. And how much that represents of the total of players, etc. You're the one defending that point. Besides, I'm not saying it wouldn't be used in GT5, I'm saying it doesn't hurt it and is not that necessary.

Joey D
And an opinion poll on a GT website is not hard data, it's a biased sample from a very small group of people.
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Again, it's better than what you or anyone has stated in favor of liveries.

Spagetti69
I do believe you when you say Kaz studied player behaviour on other games. What interests me is what games he done his study on, obviously not forza or other games with similar editors. The reason I say this is that if he did he would know people would want it in. I think he's only studied other games relating to damage. He has got the impression that people want it and then they will turn it off seems a bit odd.

As for the poll day and night racing are near the top but the ability to turn on your headlights near the bottom. This is confusing.
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I was only speaking of damage. And he will include it in GT5, because he cares what we think. The same way liveries will surely be on GT6, be I don't think will make into GT5. It's too new of a concept for PD, their development times and KS's need for perfection.
 
It would be an interesting feature, yet damage and weather (the list could go on and on) surpass a livery editor by miles in my opinion...:)
 
hornet_burnout
No, you do it. And how much that represents of the total of players, etc. You're the one defending that point. Besides, I'm not saying it wouldn't be used in GT5, I'm saying it doesn't hurt it and is not that necessary.
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I own all three Forza's plus a couple PC Racing sims, I've already seen it. You
are asking for proof, I'm telling you where to look.

You are the one who's trying to force an opinion as fact starting from this post. It's pretty easy to find what players do in games that offer livery editors and all you have to do is visit another online community that is focused on a game that offer livery editor to see the results. It's a lot more then just a few people messing around with it once or twice.
 
GT
It would be an interesting feature, yet damage and weather (the list could go on and on) surpass a livery editor by miles in my opinion...:)
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Damage, weather, custom drivetrains, engine swaps IMHO before an editor. Not much more needed above that. The poll asks for wheel sensitivity adjustments, I'm sorry that should not be in a poll that should be a necessity in 2010.
 
Joey D
I own all three Forza's plus a couple PC Racing sims, I've already seen it. You
are asking for proof, I'm telling you where to look.

You are the one who's trying to force an opinion as fact starting from this post. It's pretty easy to find what players do in games that offer livery editors and all you have to do is visit another online community that is focused on a game that offer livery editor to see the results. It's a lot more then just a few people messing around with it once or twice.
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I don't need proof it's used. I know it is. And I've come to see it's growing a lot. Still don't think it's that important yet, in Kaz's opinion and that GT5 won't have right now.

I'm not forcing. I am making a strong point based on all the stuff I said. Let's see if I'm wrong or right.

I really don't understand how presenting a strong, well support point and opinion on what will make it into GT5 is wrong and should deserve so much hate. I am not against liveries and it will be mandatory in future releases, but it will not make it into GT5 IMO. Not now.

FDM73
Kaz has confirmed bodycustomization, he says this will be one of the biggest things in GT5.
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Yes. And I think we'll get tuner shops that will allow to add wings etc as well as mechanical mods, but fixed or predefined customization, not free livery editors.
 
A free liveryeditor a la Forza would be very nice, but by no means necessary for the game.
However, it does add an extra flavor to everything. I primarily enjoyed FM2 for the livery editor rather than the gameplay itself. Once I had my hands on all the cars I wanted, I ended up creating liveries for them instead of driving them!
Fortunately, I´ve always enjoyed the driving in GT, so I´m pretty sure that would not happen even if I had a livery editor at hand.
Oh, and it wasn´t FM2´s driving dynamics that was to blame for me quitting driving, but rather the lousy MS steering wheel.
 
I think body kit type customisation would be good but I doubt I'll every bother with a livery editor. I'd rather spend time tuning and driving.
 
I want couple of body kits for each car, etc etc... Basic livery editor with 100s of sponsor and manufacturing stickers.

But more in depth car parts, for example, air filters are solid separately, spark plugs sold separately, etc etc.
 
A livery editor is a great option for winding down (too tired to race straight, too awake to sleep). It is essential for a poor driving game and while not vital to GT, I think that it would extend the play for countless years. And I'd really love to see all of those creations under PD's marvelous lighting. It really is remarkable.
 

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