FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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akiraacecombat
As for FM3, it was a complete dumb down version of FM2 and indeed the original FM, the use of rewind functions and most importantly the hidden TCS assists makes the game easier, yet, less entertaining for the "target demographic"(sim racing players).

Now, my point with this is simple, FM3 uses the hidden traction control system(it is a TCS), the usage of this feature makes the game less challenging, how do this affect the actual simulation part of the game?, well it makes the game easier, but apart from that it affects its core game mechanics, because it affects the individual car characteristics that the game wants to represent, this is effective and pretty noticeable in both games.
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So do you have any proof of a hidden TCS system because i've never experienced or heard about it. A hidden steering assist was present but its impact on gameplay is highly overrated.

You're just making stuff up dude.The steering assist and rewind will be optional and you will receive more credits if not used. Online play doesn't have rewind.

And FM3 has much better physics than FM2 and as a game is much more entertaining and rewarding..

HBK
Anyone calling FM3 "arcadish" shall really go play some arcade racer once in a while. Having now played quite a lot of FM3 and GT5 with the very same wheel, I dare say that on many aspects both games fell shockingly similar. If FM3 is "arcadish", then GT5 is "arcadish" too.
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+ 100

akiraacecombat
If such thing applies, then everyone who criticize GT5 flaws should be also be excluded from this conversation.
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Dude you make so much false claims about a 430 being docile in fm3...Hahahaha Go no try the 430 Tournament and tell me if it's more docile than fm2's version or gt5 for that matter. M.Rossi and Evans will own your ass trust me! Ps: Your full of it.

amar212
I was blown by the fact I could drive full-throttle in the mid-section of Maple Valley Reverse without any compensations for inevitable body-roll and weight-shift, not even to speak about tire-snap.
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What car where you drving ay? Thats not pretty usual the corner allows high speed cornering. Whats wrong about that?
 
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amar212
Akiraacecombat, I agree about your points 100%, I have exactly the same opinion. However, you have to understand that many people will just tend to oppose such objective reasons because of their subjective stance.

FM3 is indeed a dumbed-down version of FM2, not because of the rewind (which I have nothing against TBH, my personal hate goes towards trend of "driving line", I find it the greatest menace of the genre ever) but for permanent stability control (it was stability control to be accurate, because FM3 enforces invisible "buffer" to protect from exaggerated lateral movement) and few more reasons.

First, collision physics in FM3 was made much more forgiving than FM2, for both movable objects collision or fixed collisions for tracks surroundings. On the worser note, they've practically slaughtered almost perfect threshold-physics for non-ABS braking of FM2 in order to cater the casuals in FM3. Non-ABS braking physics of FM2 was probably my favorite detail in physics in Forza series and I was very disappointed when they've dumbed it down.

Also worth noticing is simplification of suspension modeling in FM3 compared to FM2. Although FM3 boosts more variables because of the newer physics-engine, suspensions in FM3 feels more dull and they are much more forgiving. I was blown by the fact I could drive full-throttle in the mid-section of Maple Valley Reverse without any compensations for inevitable body-roll and weight-shift, not even to speak about tire-snap. Impression was even more pronounced on Monserat or Sedona fictional tracks where suspensions were just too forgiving for such theoretically complex cambers and elevations.

I will sustain from going deeper into discussion regarding driving characteristics of FR and MR cars - especially compared to AWD - since that is another area where FM2 was superior to FM3. MR cars in FM3 were just non-inspiring and made too dull and no lively.

However, it has to be said that major improvement of FM3 was regarding actual performance for all vehicles in S and R classes - which were finally made realistic compared to FM2's Wipeout-style.

Problem in discussion regarding physics in many communities is that very small percentage of players actually uses wheels while playing. That problem is even worse for driving games on X360 because for long time there was no mainstream racing wheel for the platform, and Fanatec's solution was introduced too late and in higher price segment for everyday people. But it is really impossible to compare and talk about physics if other side don't have experience of driving FM2/FM3 and GT with the wheel.

My personal experience for both FM2 and FM3 comes solely from wheel playing, since I used Microsoft FF wheel for FM2 and beginning of FM3 and Fanatec GT2 in later stages of FM3.
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I dont know if you are fully right on everything, but I understand the points and they seem very true. What comes to my mind about the dumped down suspension is, that in this way many tracks seem wider and less bumpier.

Especially on the long and very fast corners (mostly connected straights) on the Nürburgring Nordschleife you can go way faster than in real life. Its maybe around 20-40 kmh above what is normally possible.

So I believe that this is the reason why everybody say that the track is too wide, because the suspension is too forgiving and let you go way faster than normal.
 
jabofu
I dont know if you are fully right on everything, but I understand the points and they seem very true. What comes to my mind about the dumped down suspension is, that in this way many tracks seem wider and less bumpier.

Especially on the long and very fast corners (mostly connected straights) on the Nürburgring Nordschleife you can go way faster than in real life. Its maybe around 20-40 kmh above what is normally possible.

So I believe that this is the reason why everybody say that the track is too wide, because the suspension is too forgiving and let you go way faster than normal.
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That and maybe setups are softer, and also the tracks are probably flatter than irl...
 
HBK
Anyone calling FM3 "arcadish" shall really go play some arcade racer once in a while. Having now played quite a lot of FM3 and GT5 with the very same wheel, I dare say that on many aspects both games fell shockingly similar. If FM3 is "arcadish", then GT5 is "arcadish" too.
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Agreed. If you feel that FM3 is "arcadish" <sic>, the I would assume they would feel the same way about GT5.

But I do like the direction FM has taken. Other than online, FM3 is substantially improved over FM2. Most noticeable would be the physics related to tire deformation, and the improved physics responding to damage.
 
430_Riviera
I said GTs were scripted.(lol at the video of GT4, ride height of what? measured from where? Also, is the chap driving a turbine car?)
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The real car is also scripted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_concept_vehicles,_2000-2009#Motor_Triathlon_Race_Car

If you mean with scripted a precalculated or automated behaviour when the simulation reach a certain point I think that this is more "scripted" than the whole GT5 physics:



It woud be interesting to see a practical example of what do you see scripted in GT5 physics. Aside of the auto center car in a rollover(or the manual rolling in FM3) I don't see where can be your proofs.



JJ72
Of course you can get spot on lap times with a tuned car as each tire is proportionally quicker than the other one, you can just find the "right" one by trial and error.

However doing ring time in stock cars often yields much quicker laps.

And real life tracks ain't constant, a track could be a second or two up/down depends on temperature and rubber build up, so the comparison with real life thingy isn't all that useful tbh. That goes to all the games.
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Is not useful because GT5 reach an higher level of accuracy than the other games with the same real life inconvenients? it is to me, that's another right step in the results of the simulation.



Hotspitta
So do you have any proof of a hidden TCS system because i've never experienced or heard about it.
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Did you experience the same car in other sims than FM3?

Here is kicking almost every second as you go flat out going sideways and steping grass without spinning the tires or losing control.

 
Zer0
Is not useful because GT5 reach an higher level of accuracy than the other games with the same real life inconvenients? not to me, that's another right step in the results of the simulation.
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Pretty useless when you can choose from 9 types of tire in GT each differ in lap time in a about 1.5 sec on such combo - you are destined to find one that works.

Pick any game and fudge with their grip value you can get the same result, you get such result just because GT5 has a cover it all but **** realistic wear/grip relation philosophy in tire choice.
 
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JJ72
Pretty useless when you can choose from 9 types of tire in GT each differ in lap time in a about 1.5 sec on such combo - you are destined to find one that works.
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What's the problem with that? just select the more close to the one wich you are comparing with the real car.

Is not that the real car can not switch to a better tires and do a better time than its original record lap..
 
Zer0
What's the problem with that? just select the more close to the one wich you are comparing with the real car.

Is not that the real car can not switch to a better tires and do a better time than its original record lap..
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Without data on both real life and in game tires (tire curve) how can you know it isn't differences in the grip level compensating differences in the physics engine resulting in a net time very similiar, but actually for the wrong reasons?

If GT5 is that realistic the top gear shootout time wouldn't be off, and it's off by 2 or 3 seconds consistently with stock cars.

as I said, it is test that you can manipulate.
 
I'm going to say it yet again... if you guys define Forza to be arcade then do the same for GT. Likewise if you define GT to be a sim then do the same for Forza.
 
JJ72
Without data on both real life and in game tires (tire curve) how can you know it isn't differences in the grip level compensating differences in the physics engine resulting in a net time very similiar, but actually for the wrong reasons?

If GT5 is that realistic the top gear shootout time wouldn't be off, and it's off by 2 or 3 seconds consistently with stock cars.

as I said, it is test that you can manipulate.
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You see that feasible with +1k cars and all of their tunning variables and still giving realistic results? a bit too much..

Default stock cars have not always the more realistic tires. The GT Academy time trials use comfort medium and the same stock car come with sport hard.

Since you have a range that can fit the real driving inputs and grip I don't see the problem. Sure that you can get closer with the right tires and sure than that would give you a more authentic feel of the car vs the real lap.
 
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I tried doing my own comparison with FM3 and GT5 using the same cars and tracks and found the default car setups to have lap times within .2 to almost 3 second difference. I tried comparing to the real cars times if available an in both games, at least with the cars and tracks I tried, you have to make adjustments with tires and maybe upgraded suspension with some tweaks to get closer to the real life lap times. I wouldn't say this is super realistic because you're technically fudging it a bit but at the same time both felt similar yet different yet real. They do things differently but with some mods and tweaks, including changing tires, you can change the end lap times with ease making it closer to real life's times.
 
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cuco33
but with some mods and tweaks, including changing tires, you can change the end lap times with ease making it closer to real life's times.
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Is not about modding a car until you can match the real lap but using the default cars with no more modification than selecting the right tire regarding grip.

Altering the car mechanics to match a real lap does not make sense if you want to compare the game accuracy or how authentic is recreated the car.
 
Zer0
You see that feasible with +1k cars and all of their tunning variables and still giving realistic results? a bit too much..

Default stock cars have not always the more realistic tires. The GT Academy time trials use comfort medium and the same stock car come with sport hard.

Since you have a range that can fit the real driving inputs and grip I don't see the problem. Sure that you can get closer with the right tires and sure than that would give you a more authentic feel of the car vs the real lap.
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well if the tires they decide to use is not realistic then it means they fall short.

Problem is producing the lap time is one thing, how it reacts to the driver is another thing, that isn't something this test can prove.

You can have a very simple physics engine and still produce the same result on video, it's not hard.
 
Zer0
Is not about modding a car until you can match the real lap but using the default cars with no more modification than selecting the right tire regarding grip.

Altering the car mechanics to match a real lap does not make sense if you want to compare the game accuracy or how authentic is recreated the car.
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This is what kills me in these FM vs GT5 argument. It seems the basepoint of every argument is "GT5 is real if you do 'this' and you should only have to do 'this' in FM3 to get the same results. If you have to do more or less than 'this' then GT5 wins". Who the hell said GT5 was some "standard".

The minute you have to alter one thing in GT5 then all bets are off. At that point it's can "these results" be replicated in both games. If it can be done then who gives a flying flip how you get there.

JJ72
well if the tires they decide to use is not realistic then it means they fall short.

Problem is producing the lap time is one thing, how it reacts to the driver is another thing, that isn't something this test can prove.

You can have a very simple physics engine and still produce the same result on video, it's not hard.
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this
 
Zer0
Is not about modding a car until you can match the real lap but using the default cars with no more modification than selecting the right tire regarding grip.

Altering the car mechanics to match a real lap does not make sense if you want to compare the game accuracy or how authentic is recreated the car.
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In your example with the Miata both cars in real life and in GT5's digital form were modified from stock and not exact in terms of specs. Some settings are the same but some aren't mentioned (like fully tunable dif, what settings?). Even then one version has a few things different than the other. The real life car has ABS always on whereas the digital version is off (assists off). The real version has a sport dif and I mentioned us not knowing what the digital settings are. The real life car weighs 70lb less than the digital version and comes equipped with Nitto NT01 R-compound dry competition tires (basically slicks with some grooves). I don't think sports mediums = R compound stickies.

It's probably close but not exact and even though the video shows similarities the same can be done in a Forza game, or even a NFS game.
Stickier tires + weight difference along with the other differences and yet the same lap time. It's one of those... You see it as dead nuts accurate and full blown sim. I see it as it's close but not exact. Don't know about you but tires and weight plays a huge role in a car's lap times, probably more than a camber setting.
 
I found something interesting today that might be tested, with GT5, FM2 and FM3, and is the weight transfer model, I don't base my statement on telemetry because the readings are identical, however I do base my statements on how the car drives, perfect example to begin with is Suzuka, unlike nurburgring there are not significant differences between the versions and the surfaces, there are almost no bumps in that track due to its F1 nature, but there is both left hand-right hand corners, about the same heigh difference and the layout is(it has to be identical).

Also, you guys should really read more carefully the whole post, I personally believe that FM3 is arcadish in comparison to FM2/GT5, but I'm not making such claim as a fact, something that should be pointed out, the perception of the game differs from person to person, however expressing my opinion of the game doesn't affect the value of facts.

Apart from that, there are some features in FM3 that corresponds to the arcade racing genre(Rewind for example, which is present in games like Dirt, and Shift, arcade racing games).

In the topic of tires, I consider to test whatever tire type provides me with a good amount of feedback, but I support the point that standard cars(I mean cheap Hondas and Mazdas, not GT5's standard cars), should be measure and tested with the tires that the game provides, this is to avoid the alteration of the original characteristics of the car(normal road cars do not use slick or semi-slick tires, this aspect should be consider at the time of testing).

Finally, I should point out that the new FM4 video doesn't add anything to the conversation, Eiger comes into my mind when I see that video, and that was 3 or 4 years ago, apart from that, a bunch of guys in vacation to Switzerland doesn't add up too much to the conversation.
 
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JJ72
well if the tires they decide to use is not realistic then it means they fall short.

Problem is producing the lap time is one thing, how it reacts to the driver is another thing, that isn't something this test can prove.

You can have a very simple physics engine and still produce the same result on video, it's not hard.
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You are trying too hard, the cars come default with aids selected as come default with more user friendly tires(more grip=easy driving). If you want the more realistic experience you need to switch off and change some default options as expected in a wide range game. It's the same as competing with a grid of road cars all with stock tires and yours the only with slicks, the result of that race would be biased if you want to compare to other drivers but realistic if you want to compare to slick drivers.


About the rest hope this helps:

Gran Turismo 5 vs Real. Driver - Denis Malevanyi
(race cars rental and professional driving instruction and coaching at Nurburgring)

[youtubehd]newX-mvGlm8&hd=1[/youtubehd]


Q: What tires were you using on both the real car and the virtual?
A: PS&#65279; II and Sport Hard. Both cars 100% stock

Q: THX for the answear... but dont you think that in-game the tires comfort-soft would be more compareable to those pilot sports... because i thought the sport tires in-game&#65279; are more like street-illegal (germany :D) SEMI-slick tires.... what you think?!
A: Yes, I agree with you. I tried comfort-soft and&#65279; they are much closer to PSII. Maybe even comfort-middle. And the car reacts much more realistic with those tires and lap time matches almost&#65279; 100% with reality

Max speed, acceleration, g-force - everything 100% matches a real car. I was not driving even close to 100% neither in real life or&#65279; GT5, because it was public day and I didn't have any intentions to beat anybody's best time with the M3. On the track day with no traffic I did full lap with standard DKG M3 E92 with PSII tires 8:04, but unfortunately I have only first part of this video, because my camera battery died in the middle of the lap (see my other videos). This video BTG 8:09

Q: Nice video, thank you!! One question: How would you configure the M3 E92 in the game for making it as similar as possible to&#65279; the real life one?
A: all assists off,&#65279; comfort soft tires

Q: when you stare in&#65279; game you barley touch the steering wheel but in real life you constantly thrust the wheel back and forth.
A: Steering wheel movement is just a visual effect. Front wheels turning angle&#65279; is about the same
 
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Spagetti69
So are comfort tires comparable with real life sports?

I'm trying to keep up
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and are R-compound slicks w/grooves comparable to sports mediums?

I haven't looked too deep into the tire comparison stuff nor the threads on tires much but to me they don't equate.
 
The comfort tyres are more comparable to everything in real life. The Sport tyres in GT5 behave more like real racing tyres (except for the F1 cars, where the race tyres work kinda well). That's why I'm so annoyed that everyone wants to drive R3 tyres online, they kinda ruin the simulation aspect.
 
akiraacecombat
I found something interesting today that might be tested, with GT5, FM2 and FM3, and is the weight transfer model, I don't base my statement on telemetry because the readings are identical, however I do base my statements on how the car drives, perfect example to begin with is Suzuka, unlike nurburgring there are not significant differences between the versions and the surfaces, there are almost no bumps in that track due to its F1 nature, but there is both left hand-right hand corners, about the same heigh difference and the layout is(it has to be identical).

Also, you guys should really read more carefully the whole post, I personally believe that FM3 is arcadish in comparison to FM2/GT5, but I'm not making such claim as a fact, something that should be pointed out, the perception of the game differs from person to person, however expressing my opinion of the game doesn't affect the value of facts.

Apart from that, there are some features in FM3 that corresponds to the arcade racing genre(Rewind for example, which is present in games like Dirt, and Shift, arcade racing games).
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So I guess those multimillion dollar simulators where the guy yells out "Hey let's replay that section again" and then the sim operator basically "REWINDS" that section is an arcade feature too huh?

You know what's funny, I'm really LMAO because one of the MAIN purposes of a simulator is to instantly go to a scenario where you have trouble and repeat that scenario until you get it right. Basically rewind till you get it right.

Do I use rewind? No I don't especially since the majority of my racing is online and there is no rewind available. But I don't mind it there for people just getting in. Really no different than restarting a race really. I guess a REAL sim would not let you pause the game nor restart it once you start it. One you start it you should be forced to complete it. If no OPTIONAL rewind is allowed in a "true sim" then no methods at all should be allowed to stop the race once started. Even the power button on your console should be disable till the race is over.
 
Spagetti69
So are comfort tires comparable with real life sports?

I'm trying to keep up
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At least with the M3 E92 they are it.

The point is that the stock tires are not meant to be the most realistic, if you want to compare real laps and experience the closest to the real car you need to make sure that the tires are similar. The car character changes a lot and the differences are not only the same with less grip.
 
akiraacecombat
Apart from that, there are some features in FM3 that corresponds to the arcade racing genre(Rewind for example, which is present in games like Dirt, and Shift, arcade racing games).
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Kinda like arcade racing features like "Restart Race", or "auto flip after roll over", which is present in arcade games?

Finally, I should point out that the new FM4 video doesn't add anything to the conversation, Eiger comes into my mind when I see that video, and that was 3 or 4 years ago, apart from that, a bunch of guys in vacation to Switzerland doesn't add up too much to the conversation.
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So seeing how a developer creates a track and their attempt at realism has no bearing on discussing these racing games? And getting track data = vacation? Just wow. I suspect Turn 10 and PD have been on vacation all these years making tracks.

To each their own I guess.
 
Zer0
The point is that the stock tires are not meant to be the most realistic, if you want to compare real laps and experience the closest to the real car you need to make sure that the tires are similar. The car character changes a lot and the differences are not only the same with less grip.
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What did I just read ?

And I suppose Forza 3 providing cars with stock tires that are "too grippy" is a bad thing, am I right ?

Talk about double standards ...
 
HBK
What did I just read ?

And I suppose Forza 3 providing cars with stock tires that are "too grippy" is a bad thing, am I right ?

Talk about double standards ...
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The problem with Forza is that don't exist an equivalent to the comfort tires in GT5. Their lower grade tires are more grippy than any road legal tire.

From the C&D review:
"the properly warmed sport tires in Gran Turismo felt about the same as the normal tires in Forza."
 
Spagetti69
So are comfort tires comparable with real life sports?

I'm trying to keep up
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I will quote myself from earlier phase of this very thread, since this become compound-based debate.

One of the members of my small driving-community is a Croatian vice-champion in rally, he also drove numerous hill-climbs, asphalt rallies, drove hundreds of national and international races in rally and road and naturally he cloaked thousands of kilometers on race tracks driving many race-prepped machines.

We discussed many times regarding exactly that - how accurate can handling and tire-response are based on his experience and feeling of what car/tires are doing.

Of all games he drives and has driven, he finds Richard Burns Rally as having the best weight-physics ever created. However, as far as actual feel of handling is concerned, he praises only Gran Turismo (5), but with some constraints > he highlights RUF BTR and RUF Yellow Bird on Sport Hard/Medium tires compound as being the closest to real life (high power cars) he ever experienced virtually.

For all other games he says that although they can be more attractive/have more options/more pronounced some effects, none of them actually captures the "simulation" of actual handling (of high-powered cars) as GT does with S1 and S2 tire compounds. He notes that all other games just nullify the twitches of high-powered cars produced when pushing to the limit and that level of actual grip is just too great. He highlights how lateral movement and weight-transfer in all other games is being deliberately toned-down (or made wrong).

Interesting is how he praises the work done by PD in tire-department, but also with some constraints. He finds all compounds in "Racing" class too grippy and he concludes they were made in order to make game more playable. He finds that level of snap, grip and peak of real-life racing tires is perfectly simulated with S2 (Sports Medium) compound on stock cars, while S3 is the real-life equivalent (of slick racing tires) of performance for race cars.

As for driving on edge with "normal" tires, he highlights N3 and S1 compounds, although he personally finds N2 (Comfort Medium) being closest to grip levels of street tires when being driven on street car (without any race prep).
 
Zer0
The problem with Forza is that don't exist an equivalent to the comfort tires in GT5. Their lower grade tires are more grippy than any road legal tire.

From the C&D review:
"the properly warmed sport tires in Gran Turismo felt about the same as the normal tires in Forza."
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You can start an online race with just you and the AI if you want and there is an option to change the level of grip on the tires.
 

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