FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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You can start an online race with just you and the AI if you want and there is an option to change the level of grip on the tires.
Yes I know but that is more like a "hack" of the actual tires, like a "wear selector" for drifters. Other people use overinflated tires but all that don't make the stock cars handle more realistic like happens with GT5 comfort tires.
 
At least with the M3 E92 they are it.

The point is that the stock tires are not meant to be the most realistic, if you want to compare real laps and experience the closest to the real car you need to make sure that the tires are similar. The car character changes a lot and the differences are not only the same with less grip.

Agreed, but in your Miata example the tires are not similar. The real Miata was equipped with Nitto NT01 tires which are dry competition R-compound tires, not sports mediums like the digital version had.
 
Agreed, but in your Miata example the tires are not similar. The real Miata was equipped with Nitto NT01 tires which are dry competition R-compound tires, not sports mediums like the digital version had.
Similar in grip not in name. Read Amar's post in the previous page.
 
Similar in grip not in name. Read Amar's post in the previous page.

errr in his post Sport medium equal to slick tires....so it doesn't match up.

I don't buy this "stock car has gripper tires for noobs" argument, since the less grippy tires are way more linear and easy to drive with. And slower speed means less demand in reaction time as well.
 
S3 are Sport Soft tires.

To make it simpler, this is his breakdown:

N3 (Comfort Hard) is everyday compound used on cheap and small cars
N2 (Comfort Medium) is the *real life* compound on majority of *normal* cars
N3 (Comfort Soft) and S1 (Sports Hard) are compound for majority of sports cars
S2 (Sports Medium) is high performance tire for both street ant track use
S3 (Sports Soft) offers grip and performance similar to racing/slick tires

He completely expels R (Racing) compound and finds it unrealistic and made to cater casual players.
 
Sport tires tend to be normally treaded tires with a good tire compound. R-compound tires like this Nitto tire is a slick with very few treads in it. To me R-compound tires shouldn't be classified as a sports medium but at minimum sports soft or racing hard. When given a range of 9 tires from comfort hards to racing softs, I'd put the R-compounds leaning heavily towards the racing side, not in the middle with sports mediums.

The Nitto in question:
nithz8.l.jpg

basically a racing slick with very few treads.

But that's only 1 argument. You got a 70lb weight difference and a few mods/settings that are different or we don't know what they were set to. In other words even though we know some specifics we don't know it all. At the end of the day it's cool to be close to the real thing especially if it has characteristics that handle similarly but it's not a direct comparison. Close though.
 
So what PD thought were sport tyres, actually aren't according to the players, but it's ok, just plug in another random tyre choice till the grip seems ok and call it "real life tyre"?
 
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So what PD thought were sport tyres, actually aren't according to the players, but it's ok, just plug in another random tyre choice till the grip seems ok and call it "real life tyre"?
I think it's a bit less black-and-white than that. If you take a look at the pictures for each tyre category in GT5, it's clear that 'Comforts' are 'Sports' in real life, just look at the treading (very similar to a Michelin PS2 or a Bridgestone Potenza RE050 or similar sports tyre). The 'Sports' are actually semi-slicks (again: look at the treading), and the 'Racing' are full slicks.

dsc03141.jpg

So I'm not quite sure what PD meant exactly, since their textual descriptions don't quite match their pictures. ;)
 
So what PD thought were sport tyres, actually aren't according to the players, but it's ok, just plug in another random tyre choice till the grip seems ok and call it "real life tyre"?
Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
 
So what PD thought were sport tyres, actually aren't according to the players, but it's ok, just plug in another random tyre choice till the grip seems ok and call it "real life tyre"?
Well, reading this, I remembered this thread.

Quote from the OP:
For those that are late to the party and want a quick summary:

My testing so far has revealed that the 9 tire types (CH, CM, CS, SH, SM, SS, RH, RM, RS) in GT5 form what appears to be a simple grip multiplier, with each tire type adding approximately .06g of lateral grip. The only thing that changes is where the scale starts for various cars. (i.e. for the ZR1, CH = .85g and for the '71 Cuda, CH = .80g). It also appears that the width of the tire is not being considered in the grip equations; for any specific tire type, the '02 Mini Cooper has the same amount of lateral grip as the '09 Corvette ZR1! And as softer tires are equipped, the amount of grip increases equally for both cars.

The implications of this are that in order to get close to IRL grip performance (based on lateral acceleration anyway), you have to equip different cars with different tires. As an example, just throwing sport mediums on all performance sports cars means nothing. One car may need CM tires to reproduce IRL performance numbers, while a very similar car may require SH tires.

As it appeears, the tyres just present a grip multiplicator. And, as the OP states, if you want to replicate what the cars would do in real life, you'd have to go through quite a bit of trial and error.

So, no, it's not simple as limiting yourself to comfort aand sport tyres in GT5. It at least appears to be that way.

After reading that (again), I have to wonder how some guys can just claim that it's just a matter of limiting yourself to a certain kind of tyre...
 
JJ72
errr in his post Sport medium equal to slick tires....so it doesn't match up.

I don't buy this "stock car has gripper tires for noobs" argument, since the less grippy tires are way more linear and easy to drive with. And slower speed means less demand in reaction time as well.

Well, but it's true. A 'n00b' doesn't take a miata to learn a track, he takes a 'fully modded' Zonda.

Anyway I did some laps with the Gamescom demo and grip levels for all compounds was considerably less than in the final version of A-spec, while A-spec is notacibly grippier than Arcade mode in the finished product.

On the tyre model of Forza: the developers claimed their model was superior to anything else back for FM2. That was certainly not true as tyre wear and heating had a very low impact considering the fuzz they made about it. Tyre flexing in FM3 was in the same category as glowing brake discs - eye candy with no apparent use to me. Anyway, I'm curious what the future holds, what are claims to excite and what is actually true.
 
Don't the tire grip levels change also between online and off. Not sure why but I've read that they do.
 
All we know is that some cars drive very differently online and offline, in ways which are so extreme they can not simply be explained by varying grip levels. For example, some of my rides which have a definite (and playful) tendency to oversteer offline become completely understeery online, to the point of being hardly drivable.
 
Well, but it's true. A 'n00b' doesn't take a miata to learn a track, he takes a 'fully modded' Zonda.

Anyway I did some laps with the Gamescom demo and grip levels for all compounds was considerably less than in the final version of A-spec, while A-spec is notacibly grippier than Arcade mode in the finished product.

On the tyre model of Forza: the developers claimed their model was superior to anything else back for FM2. That was certainly not true as tyre wear and heating had a very low impact considering the fuzz they made about it. Tyre flexing in FM3 was in the same category as glowing brake discs - eye candy with no apparent use to me. Anyway, I'm curious what the future holds, what are claims to excite and what is actually true.

Tire wear certainly did have an impact in FM2 as well as FM3. If you drove 3 laps then no. But if you put in the laps that the group I race with did you most certainly do know tire wear came into play. FM3 it seems to be more realistic time-wise where FM2 it seemed to be accelerated some.
 
Tire wear certainly did have an impact in FM2 as well as FM3. If you drove 3 laps then no. But if you put in the laps that the group I race with did you most certainly do know tire wear came into play. FM3 it seems to be more realistic time-wise where FM2 it seemed to be accelerated some.

Indeed. Our team that raced usually would pit nearly every race (when we had 25 lappers) as the tires were wearing and starting to slide into corners. Pitting gave us new treads, but the tires were hard and cold and took a bit to warm up again, but they finally grabbed a couple laps in.
 
Indeed. Our team that raced usually would pit nearly every race (when we had 25 lappers) as the tires were wearing and starting to slide into corners. Pitting gave us new treads, but the tires were hard and cold and took a bit to warm up again, but they finally grabbed a couple laps in.

Exactly. You go in to get that fresh rubber and try to push it like your old tires and slide all over the joint. LOL. Gotta keep telling yourself "Cold Tires". We race various lengths. 10 lappers, 20+ lappers, timed races usually 45 minutes give or take 15 or 20 minutes. Longest race was over 2 hours straight on LeMans.

I think in FM2 we definitely had to pit more often however in FM3 the pit times are closer to reality. Real races on TV I don't see guys pitting after 3 laps. Hell, most race i see they barely pit 3 times the whole race.
 
OK, I'm going to try and break things down here, feel free to debate:

FFB: GT5 - Very good, lacking FW feedback. Forza - Fill me in, haven't had enough time on a wheel, but from limited time - Good
Suspension - GT5 - Poor/Average, Forza3 - Average/Good
Brakes (no abs) - GT5 - Average/Good, Forza 3 - Average/Good
Tyres lateral- GT5 - Average, Forza 3 - Good
Tyres longitudinal - GT5 - Good, Forza 3 - Good
Tyres dynamics - GT5 - Poor, Forza 3 - Good
Weight Transfer - GT5 - Good, Forza 3 - Good
Collisions - GT5 - Poor, Forza 3 - good
Visual damage - GT5 - average, Forza 3 - Good
Mechanical damage - GT5 - Very Good, Forza 3 - Excellent
Track accuracy/detail - GT5 - Poor/Excellent, Forza 3 - Average/Very good
Upgrades - GT5 - Average, Forza 3 - Very good
Tuning - GT5 - Average, Forza 3 - Very good
Input response - GT5 - Excellent, Forza 3 - Very good
Car models - GT5 - Very Poor/Excellent, Forza 3 - Good/Very good
Career - GT5 - Average, Forza 3 - Good
DLC - GT5 - Very poor, Forza 3 - Excellent
Playability for noobs - GT5 - Excellent, Forza 3 - Very good
UI - GT5 - Average, Forza 3 - Very good
'Feel' - GT5 - Excellent, Forza 3 - Very good (generalisation, not my opinion here)
Car selection & variety - GT5 - Very Good, Forza 3 - Very good
Graphics - GT5 - Poor/Excellent, Forza 3 - Average/Very good

Haha, the word good suddenly doesn't look at all right to me :P
My opinion is not final on these, but just a rough idea of my current thoughts.
 
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OK, I'm going to try and break things down here, feel free to debate:

Mechanical damage - GT5 - Very Good, Forza 3 - Excellent
Where is the mechanical damage in GT5??? Nowhere near very good imo.
Track accuracy - GT5 - Poor/Excellent, Forza 3 - Average/Very good
There is videos in this thread that prove GT5 is very accurate on almost every track. I haven't seen any that were poor.
Car selection & variety - GT5 - Very Good, Forza 3 - Very good
Forza has a much better car selection IMO. Forza has a much better variety.
 
I wonder if PD noticed all the complaints on the visuals for damage and ramped up the damage effects. To me, in order to get the visual stuff you need to keep bashing the car so if they can make it trigger quicker, it'd be better. And while they are at it I hope they add the good mechanical damage effects across the entire game including the seasonals. Would prevent some from playing the game arcade style, bump n running, wall grinding, etc and focus more on core sim driving. Take turns correctly, brake at the right points, overpass cars rather than nudging them off the road, etc.
 
I wonder if PD noticed all the complaints on the visuals for damage and ramped up the damage effects.
The question isn't whether they noticed them, i think, but if they can be bothered to focus on that, instead of, dunno, the Museum Cards.
 
Where is the mechanical damage in GT5??? Nowhere near very good imo.

Thanks, I for some reason remembered it being better.

There is videos in this thread that prove GT5 is very accurate on almost every track. I haven't seen any that were poor.

Sorry there, meant to class it as accuracy/detail. GT5 seriously lacks detail on the GT4 ported tracks. But yes, accuracy, except the bumps, is pretty good in GT5.

Forza has a much better car selection IMO. Forza has a much better variety.

Hence the combination coming to the same result. GT5 has more variety in a smaller number of makes, Forza has a wider variety of makes with less model variety. While I prefer the latter, I felt it only fair to give both even credit.
 
Where is the mechanical damage in GT5?

I had gearbox issues and my car was pulling to the left the other night when I was toying around with the 2010 Camaro SS on the Ring straight.
 
t.o.
Tire wear certainly did have an impact in FM2 as well as FM3. If you drove 3 laps then no. But if you put in the laps that the group I race with did you most certainly do know tire wear came into play. FM3 it seems to be more realistic time-wise where FM2 it seemed to be accelerated some.

I said 'considering the fuzz'. If one turned off the tyre wear in FM 2, one could run at 45 psi and thus manage much better lap times. Just one of those glitches that got never fixed. Considering this bespoke tyre model that's a bit odd, isn't it?
Furthermore I seemed always to get the best lap time on lap 8 (depending on the track of course) and when tyres wore down it was a linear process. Which it shouldn't.
If tyres wear and the driver doesn't adjust to that, the wear increases much more. Now strangely enough GT5 got this aspect absolutely spot on.

I did run the 90 minutes 'endurance' races quite a lot to grind money so I feel I do have some experience when I'm talking FM2 tyres. Not to mention FM2 was totally grip biased thus everyone ran Avon tyres. Until some folks like VVV showed up and used speed tunes/rockets. And made 4WD the dominant drive train.

So, really, I don't but the claim at face value.
 
Now strangely enough GT5 got this aspect absolutely spot on.
I wouldn't use the words "spot on" for a game that doesn't make a difference between hard tyres and soft ones as far as the wear is concerned, but that's just me.

Also, FM3 started to take your driving into account. I don't really get how a flaw in FM3 that got fixed in FM3 is really relevant here, but again, that might just be me. After all, having flaws doesn't mean that it wasn't a bespoke tyre model, right?
 
Nobody's saying that, I'm just saying that GT5 is far from "spot on" when it comes to tyre wear. And that comparing it to FM2 seems pointless.
 
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