1.04 update - Physics changes - Your impressions?

[FussyFez]

I had a Lotus Esprit tuned to my liking with 0 camber all around. After the update it was much more twitchy in a straight line, under braking, and off throttle. I did add some camber (still less than a degree all around), adjust brake bias, and LSD decel (slightly) to dial it back in. I think it actually feels better now than before the update. More stable.


Also as a side note my slightly understeering miata is much more neutral now with no changes to tuning. It actually, you know, turns in when I steer into the corner.

Thanks for the feedback. You have compounded my confusion.

I have found extra stability also, but no gain in laptimes.

There is evidence of 0.0 still being the fastest round a track.

More testing needed from consistent pilots.

But I think the whole setup might need tweaking to help the camber. Maybe.

Or its still broke.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/camber.297489/page-6

 

[PsuPepperoni]

You can definitely gain extra stability with camber. If a car has bad oversteer, adding camber to the front will make it more stable, very effectively.

And it will have slower lap times.

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

In the previous update at willow the off track seemed too slippery, so when I was dirt dropping one tyre when drifting I'd just spin out or get mass understeer.

Now it's perfect, the tyre digs in a little bit but still is controllable and leads to a decent looking tyre drop that a lot of people will agree is really fun to do.

The tyre grip feels a lot better also, it has fixed the twitchy feeling I got when changing my angle slightly during a drift.

Also to the guys using 0 0 camber settings, do you's race or drift? Because I run 2.5 front - 1.0 rear camber with 0.01 front toe and 0.05 - 0.10 rear toe depending on power, whilst using comfort hards and there's no problem with the grip being lost.

 

[Raf Laureys]

It feels much better again. There is much more response from the front axle and feedback trough the wheel. Also if you have understeer you can actually regain grip by lifting off or touching the brakes a little. The forcefeedback feels more natural. A big step back in the right direction IMO.

 

[smskeeter23]

To everyone saying that "traps" slow down a car moving at high speed I present this from a race I was at a few years ago.

As you will see... it sure didn't slow him down enough to stop before the tire wall... which also did not slow him down enough to NOT go through the fence.

Y'all need to listen to @Lawndart as he knows what he is talking about.

 

[ace004]

In the previous update at willow the off track seemed too slippery, so when I was dirt dropping one tyre when drifting I'd just spin out or get mass understeer.

Now it's perfect, the tyre digs in a little bit but still is controllable and leads to a decent looking tyre drop that a lot of people will agree is really fun to do.

The tyre grip feels a lot better also, it has fixed the twitchy feeling I got when changing my angle slightly during a drift.

Also to the guys using 0 0 camber settings, do you's race or drift? Because I run 2.5 front - 1.0 rear camber with 0.01 front toe and 0.05 - 0.10 rear toe depending on power, whilst using comfort hards and there's no problem with the grip being lost.

drifting is a while different thing. For the record i havent got to test camber post 1.04, but before the patch all camber did was reduce grip at the wheels you add it to. So for drifting you see guys adding camber and liking it, usually more to the front to make the tires break loose at roughly the same time. It makes a drift car more predictable. But the problem is the majority of drifters aren't in touch with tuning like the circuit racers. So they don't know why it was helping and they can't tell the loss of grip because they are already sliding.

From the confusion I suspect @PsuPepperoni is correct. Like I said I still haven't tested it myself. But one thing I do know is a lot of people are ignorant to tuning and physics on gtplanet. They feel a difference which could be from several things and automatically jump to conclusions without testing first.

 

[Ryk]

I was actually pleased with an Off At Willow Springs today. I thought it was down to my Shelby Mustang being hewn from a block of purest granite.
I am happy it is a general change - Going off should be a bad thing.

 

[smskeeter23]

Willow Springs... hard as a gravel road. There should be little to no loss of speed there off track...



If you go off track it should be very slippery but not an almost instant slow to 22mph.

Plus it really "was" fun to tool around off road at WS.


PS this is not a response to your post @Ryk

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

drifting is a while different thing. For the record i havent got to test camber post 1.04, but before the patch all camber did was reduce grip at the wheels you add it to. So for drifting you see guys adding camber and liking it, usually more to the front to make the tires break loose at roughly the same time. It makes a drift car more predictable. But the problem is the majority of drifters aren't in touch with tuning like the circuit racers. So they don't know why it was helping and they can't tell the loss of grip because they are already sliding.

From the confusion I suspect @PsuPepperoni is correct. Like I said I still haven't tested it myself. But one thing I do know is a lot of people are ignorant to tuning and physics on gtplanet. They feel a difference which could be from several things and automatically jump to conclusions without testing first.

I think you'll find the majority of drifters have an excellent understanding at tuning.

 

[LS Chiou]

You guys are really fast.

I just finished the 2 X-car and 2 seasonal events. Other than those, there's not much experience on physics.

It just felt so heavy and slow when driving Stingray right after the Vettel challenge

Then I took the Stingray prize car to the 15min race. Tuned lighter, stiffer, more power and with RH, its response is much better than in the seasonal event. Somewhat understeer, especially in trail-braking. (Oh, without ABS, its brake can lock the tires for sure, BTW) I'm not sure if the characters of this car is new by 1.04 or the same as before. I got 2 C7 in garage but they're seldom used.

Or maybe my impression would probably be affected by the unreal X-cars and those tail happy MR cars I mostly drove recently.

 

[nasanu]

Well, I just noticed a change and I got really really pissed.
Now we can set ABS to 0 and your tires won't lock anymore, even using comfort tires.
You can full brake at 150km/h and probably even more and your tires will lock only when you reach about 60~~80 km/h.
I have tested only 2 cars until now.

So more realistic = bad?

Most road cars don't have brakes that will lock at such high speeds. It is completely realistic to only lock once speeds are reduced.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

Just curious, why is it harder for a road car to lock up the wheels at higher speeds?

 

[JDM_Tuning_S3OZ]

Just curious, why is it harder for a road car to lock up the wheels at higher speeds?

It really depends on what car it is

 

[nasanu]

Just curious, why is it harder for a road car to lock up the wheels at higher speeds?

They usually don't have as strong brakes as a racing car, they don't need them. And they also need longer lasting brakes, which means harder pads that give less grip but last longer.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

They usually don't have as strong brakes as a racing car, they don't need them. And they also need longer lasting brakes, which means harder pads that give less grip but last longer.

I mean in general, it seems life it would normally take the same amount of pressure from the calipers to exceed the tire-contact-patch's maximum deceleration force (causing lock-up), regardless of vehicle speed.

 

[Rafael F]

So more realistic = bad?

Most road cars don't have brakes that will lock at such high speeds. It is completely realistic to only lock once speeds are reduced.

I'm talking about cars with no ABS, not modern cars -.-

 

[nasanu]

I mean in general, it seems life it would normally take the same amount of pressure from the calipers to exceed the tire-contact-patch's maximum deceleration force (causing lock-up), regardless of vehicle speed.

But the wheel has mass. The faster it is spinning the harder it is to stop.

From Wikipedia:

"When a body is rotating around an axis, a torque must be applied to change its angular momentum. The amount of torque needed for any given change in angular momentum is proportional to the size of that change."

This means that to lock the brakes at 150km takes 3x the force it takes to lock the wheels at 50km.

 

[nasanu]

I'm talking about cars with no ABS, not modern cars.

Then you are even more wrong because the older the car the worse the brakes generally.

 

[Rafael F]

Then you are even more wrong because the older the car the worse the brakes generally.

Dude, for sure they are worse... they cause the tires to lock.
That's why ABS is superior, it distributes correctly the braking to the wheels avoiding tire lock. That's why ABS exists.
Try to push hard the brakes of a car with no ABS at 150km/h, you will be lucky if you survive.

 

[nasanu]

Dude, for sure they are worse... they cause the tires to lock.
That's why ABS is superior, it distributes correctly the braking to the wheels avoiding tire lock. That's why ABS exists.
Try to push hard the brakes of a car with no ABS at 150km/h, you will be lucky if you survive.

No, that is not how abs works. ABS does not distribute braking force at all, it is a dumb technology that just turns the brakes on and off rapidly (kind of.. the term is being applied to all sorts of modern traction control systems.. getting confused). Read below (and note he had softer brake pads than standard). Sure all cars are different, but generally what I am saying is correct.

I agree at 60kph which is nearly 40mph i to could get my real car brakes to lock up with ease, in gt5 i always adjusted brake balance so i could get my wheels to start locking at around 60-70mph mark, i couldnt do this in 1.03 but in 1.04 i was driving the ruf btr cs tyres and standard bias would make it lock at those speeds in a straight line.

The reason i want the car to lock up at those speeds is because i remember doing a test in my real road car, was a ae86, i travelled@110mph then slammed on the brakes as hard as i could and the offside wheel locked up first then the drivers side and that was@around 70mph, this was with mintex fast road pads and goodyear f1 eagles. i have been driving non abs cars over for 20 years, all cars stock except ae86 which had some thicker bilstein shocks and 30mm progressive lowering springs which were on the softer side (im pretty sure i did the brake test when the car was stock),also the newest car i owned was built in 1988

 

[PsuPepperoni]

But the wheel has mass. The faster it is spinning the harder it is to stop.

From Wikipedia:

"When a body is rotating around an axis, a torque must be applied to change its angular momentum. The amount of torque needed for any given change in angular momentum is proportional to the size of that change."

This means that to lock the brakes at 150km takes 3x the force it takes to lock the wheels at 50km.

So if a car has light-weight wheels it's easier to lock them up?

 

[Swagger897]

My quick summary of 1.04

Did absolutely nothing major of notice. However, I saw this thread and added a boat load of toe to the r8 LMS and it sorta helped, but the LSD and roll bars are not all healing together.. My main car is the R18 but I've experienced no changes so other than that, that's it.

However, side note really: the R8 LMS headlights have been dimmed drastically. And the BMW m3 gt '11 has a. Super dark cockpit (not sure if it's been like that)

 

[nasanu]

So if a car has light-weight wheels it's easier to lock them up?

To an extent. If the wheel was spinning in air then absolutely yes. But in braking there is the wheel mass and the friction against the road. What percentage each of those play I am not quite sure. Friction I am sure would be the major player, but the other can't be ignored.

 

[SillyBillyP]

Dude, for sure they are worse... they cause the tires to lock.
That's why ABS is superior, it distributes correctly the braking to the wheels avoiding tire lock. That's why ABS exists.
Try to push hard the brakes of a car with no ABS at 150km/h, you will be lucky if you survive.

I think there's a misunderstanding about what ABS is.

ABS only comes on under extreme braking, at the point of lock up. IRL, and if you watch how you drive, you can drive for years without ever having ABS come on at all. When it does come on, you'll feel the car judder as the ABS does its brake-release-brake-release-brake-release thing.

 

[newbielives]

I think there's a misunderstanding about what ABS is.

ABS only comes on under extreme braking, at the point of lock up. IRL, and if you watch how you drive, you can drive for years without ever having ABS come on at all. When it does come on, you'll feel the car judder as the ABS does its brake-release-brake-release-brake-release thing.

Abs set to zero does lock up tires but you have to change the brake bias from 5 and 5

I was really pissed to but after changing it to 7 front 4 back i was able to lock the tires again

 

[Rafael F]

I think there's a misunderstanding about what ABS is.

ABS only comes on under extreme braking, at the point of lock up. IRL, and if you watch how you drive, you can drive for years without ever having ABS come on at all. When it does come on, you'll feel the car judder as the ABS does its brake-release-brake-release-brake-release thing.

I understand, that's what I'm talking about, I have been saying "pushing hard the brakes", I mean "fully pressing the brakes". Maybe a misunderstanding because my english is bad.
I mean brakes should be like this:

 

[Rafael F]

Abs set to zero does lock up tires but you have to change the brake bias from 5 and 5

I was really pissed to but after changing it to 7 front 4 back i was able to lock the tires again

This! 👍

 

[Morphisor]

Dude, for sure they are worse... they cause the tires to lock.
That's why ABS is superior, it distributes correctly the braking to the wheels avoiding tire lock. That's why ABS exists.
Try to push hard the brakes of a car with no ABS at 150km/h, you will be lucky if you survive.

I have done this quite a few times in my own car, it does NOT lock up.... admitted, its brakes and tires are better than average though.

You've got one thing wrong though. Brakes are considered better when they have more braking power. But, more braking power means you apply more on the tires during full braking. The more power the tires have to deal with, the easier to lock up.

Therefore, if your car does not lock up under full braking, the brakes are less powerful than those of another car, with the same tires, that does lock up. Older cars (say, 80's and earlier) didn't have powerful disc brakes that modern cars have. On top of that the brakes were generally tuned not to lock up easily (ie. power was adjusted), since there was no ABS after all.

 

[Rafael F]

I have done this quite a few times in my own car, it does NOT lock up.... admitted, its brakes and tires are better than average though.

You've got one thing wrong though. Brakes are considered better when they have more braking power. But, more braking power means you apply more on the tires during full braking. The more power the tires have to deal with, the easier to lock up.

Therefore, if your car does not lock up under full braking, the brakes are less powerful than those of another car, with the same tires, that does lock up. Older cars (say, 80's and earlier) didn't have powerful disc brakes that modern cars have. On top of that the brakes were generally tuned not to lock up easily (ie. power was adjusted), since there was no ABS after all.

Oh got it, ABS is now useless because cars with no ABS no longer will lock tires, and that's a good thing. Glad that they noticed this on PD.

 

[sems4arsenal]

GT updates invented the word Placebo