10 reasons why Ferrari Challenge is better than GT5P

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5: Prologue' started by Biggles, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. Lion-Face

    Lion-Face Premium

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    I'm not doubting the comment about the feel 'through' the corners is greater in FC, i agree with that statement. Its what the FC feedback is based on, what your tires are doing in relation to the road.

    It was your comment about 'matching engine revs and balancing the car under braking doesn't appear to be modeled in GT5P'. With ABS=Off (which you can't do in Arcade mode time trials, which was the key point i was trying to make) the requirement for a steady brake pedal and correct weight transfer becomes a lot more apparent.

    One of my biggest complaints about GT5P is the way ABS is handled, as not only does it prevent your brakes from locking up, it appears to act as a sort of TCS/ASM system at the same time...rear stepping out through a fast corner? Jab the brakes with ABS on and it'll come back under control, do the same with ABS off, you'll likely lock the rears and put it into the barrier.

    I rarely fall off the track when I'm hot lapping in GT5P. I don't know what your getting at? When I haven't played a game in a while, it takes some time to get used to it again. A particular car/track/physics, you will fall off a fair amount even if you've raced plenty of times around the track in the game. I bet if I picked up FC again, I would be falling off every other corner. Its finding your limits again, and its natural. FC is a bit more forgiving when you've pushed a little too far over the edge, slides are easy to bring back to control, while GT5P, takes a lot longer to learn to control the car at the limit.
     
  2. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

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    I go off track a lot ... with both :lol:


    More seriously, it's funny how different people have different experiences. I find it a lot easier to recover control over a car in GT5P than in FC.

    In the end, this is what I tell to all my friends and puclicly in gtplanet: play both, enjoy both. If you do it with just one of them, you are missing out.
     
  3. Lion-Face

    Lion-Face Premium

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    Can't argue with that logic :tup:
     
  4. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    As both are simulators they both use various devices to make up for the things which you'd normally feel in a car. Perhaps I can put that better by saying that they have to make up for what you'd normally feel through your sense of balance as well as the feeling you get through the brake pedal and all the other small signals a real life car gives you.

    I suppose it's inevitable that some people will prefer one set of substitutes to another.

    Personally I find the FFB in FC a revelation which makes the cars fun to drive. Of course it's not perfect and there are many aspects where GT5P is superior but it's the feeling of fun which brings me back to FC.

    I recently had a big slide coming over a hill and a series of sharp corners. I stopped the spin but ended up with a nice dent in my car. I was shocked as I'd had little warning or feedback which is not normally the case. The police came and told me that there was an oil spill on the road, which combined with the rain was, well let us say not a great help! The difference between the way the car felt on the oil that day and the way it usually feels is the difference in feeling I get between FC and GT5P (GT5P being the oil feeling).

    I'm sure the FFB in FC could be improved, it is a bit raw but it helps make up for the other missing info, at least for me.

    I like the fact that you can turn off ABS in GT5P, As a previous poster said the cars wiggle more. My main problem is that I fidn it hard to "feel" where the wiggle is coming from and sometimes have to watch the replays to understand why I ended on the grass facing the wrong way. I do long for the day when they can produce wheel/pedal kits with force feedback in the pedals.

    Sorry for the ramble but I'm at work and trying to put my finger on the strengths of the two games is not as easy as I had first thought.

    One final thing, I'm still convinced that in some circumstances the cars in GT5P over-steer incorrectly. Coming up the left hander after the esses at Suzuka, I found the BMW lost the back when I wasn't really on the accelerator, nor had I done anything to provoke lift off over-steer.
     
  5. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Good post Mad Matt :tup:

    The corner you lost the BMW on is negative camber. You don't have to do anything to provoke oversteer there.
     
  6. Biggles

    Biggles

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    I appreciate the civil tone of the discussion, as opposed to the "I've tried FC & it sucks!" kind of comments. :)

    @lion-face: By chance I believe I came across you online in the SCC beta - actually the very first laps I tried in the SCC Beta (in case you were wondering why I was driving like a kook!). It's still not clear to me whether you actually have FC.

    What I'm getting at, is that the whole basis for driving is a bit different in each game:

    In GT5P the steering & braking is very precise, allowing you to push into each corner at maximum possible speed. At the same time, the feel of the FFB while you're cornering is much less. As a result, while hot lapping there is a tendency to push into each corner as hard as possible, braking as late as possible, which inevitably leads to running off the track (at Suzuka: notably at T1, Degner & Spoon) - start again, repeat, braking a little earlier this time so you stay on the track, repeat again trying to brake a tiny bit later etc. etc. This is what I mean by the driving being almost mathematical - repetition eventually results in learning the best inputs for each corner. I defy anyone to tell me that in putting together a best time at Suzuka, they haven't driven off repeatedly at T1 while learning to carry the maximum amount of speed through the corner (not the same as actual online racing where you will naturally drive a little more conservatively to avoid driving off like a kook).

    In contrast, FC is a little unpredictable partly because of the instability under heavy braking, & partly because of the deadzone in the wheel. This forces you to allow for a bit of a margin of error when cornering (especially with some of the "wobbly-suspension" cars), braking early & balancing the car before each corner. This unpredictability is compensated for partly by the greater feel in the FFB. Running hot laps in FC seems to me to be much more of an organic affair, where the trick is to string together a whole series of corners in the smoothest possible way rather than focussing on each corner individually. I can't help feeling that this is closer to the way racing occurs IRL: it's not a desperate struggle to maximize speed at each corner, but the ability to string together a series of consistent, flowing laps that wins races. When hot lapping in FC (which I have never done for more than 20 - 30 minutes at a time), I rarely drive off the track, because I have greater feel for what the car is doing, & I'm more focussed on balancing the car through a sequence of corners, working with the weight transfer, rather than maximizing speed through one particular corner.

    To put it simply: FC feels more "organic", GT5P feels more "clinical". This difference is further exaggerated by the fact that the driving by the better racers in GT5P online has become extremely fast & precise, simply because there are so few tracks available & so few cars that are competitive. Running the same car over the same track lap after lap online, sometimes for 3 or 4 weeks until the next event update, results in very precise & predictable racing. FC online feels more "amateurish" in comparison, because typically a lobby will move from track to track, not giving the participants time to hone their racing line to perfection over dozens of laps. For me, anyway, this just makes it more fun.

    One big problem with FC online however: not enough people actively participating, changing which, was the original purpose of this thread...
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2009
  7. Lion-Face

    Lion-Face Premium

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    Yes i own Ferrari Challenge, I imported it from the UK (I live in New Zealand) because the NZ release date was pushed back till September, I ended up buying it again in September for the Trophy update (have FC Platinum) and promised DLC, which I've also purchased. I haven't really Time Trialed much, but if you wanted to look me up on the boards, Mont Tremblant in the F430 I hit a time of 1:38.18. My favorite track and I should be in the top 30 times so that gives me the right to bag on FC :p

    I was writing out this long argument to your post, but at the end of the day, I like the way FC feels, the way you have to balance the car as the front tires cry under the added stress and weight of the car into the braking areas, how the cars roll through the corner.

    I like the way GT5P feels, I like the 'clinical' predictability of the cars, being able to push and know the limits and drive as close to maximum of them as possible. Really I like both of them, they are both great games, I prefer GT5P and every time I try a new 'Sim' GT just sucks me back into it.

    I just don't care enough to argue, they are both great, I enjoy both games immensely and am really looking forward to the SCC release. Like Hun200kmh said, if your only playing one of them, your missing out.

    @ Mad Matt, in addition to what Tired Tyres said about that corner being off camber, the middle of the corner it 'crests' the hill, so your car will become a lot lighter as it rides over the crest, and with too much throttle and steering lock, its easy to put the car into a spin. Some of the more 'planted' cars you don't necessarily feel it every time you race through the corner, particularly on R tires, but in a car like the F40, especially on S or N tires, you feel it every time through that corner and is a real challenge to push your speed through the correct line without causing wheel spin or getting the car sideways costing you time.
     
  8. DaddyVDUB

    DaddyVDUB

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    I Love both games.They both have different personalites and both have there faults,but its like having two children you love both even they are different. Its just hard to go back and forth for me, takes a while to adjust because they feel so different.

    On a different note I did a few races on GT5P Thurs, seems they have tweeked the tires again. At Daytona 800pp the Tuned Z06 felt like normal physics, on R1s the car felt glued to the track. On the other hand I did Fuji 700pp in a Amuse S2000 with S3s and it felt like the track was ICE.
     
  9. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    Thanks lion-face and Tired tires (not tyres :-) ), yes it is off camber which I'd only noticed a bit although I hadn't thought about the crest at all. Watching the replays it becomes a bit clearer although it always looks like something my real life MR2 wouldn't have trouble with but perhaps the hill is steeper than it looks.

    Again the problem is I'm not picking up the artificial cues as to what is happening so I just learnt that I had to go slower and let the car settle.

    To be honest I'm not playing so much and spending more time in my real car, well it is summer after all (in Europe at least)!

    Thanks again,

    Matt.
     
  10. Biggles

    Biggles

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    Yes, I love both games (& also F1CE). :)

    However, GT5P doesn't need my help in promoting it. ;)

    BTW: in FC any lap you run in any mode (other than in TT), online or offline will register on the leaderboards, as long as you are connected to the internet. This is why I expect to see people on the Lap Record leaderboards somewhere, if they have, in fact, spent any reasonable amount of time playing FC. Given that some of the cars/tracks only have 20 or 30 times recorded, it doesn't require too much effort to place pretty high on the FC leaderboards. ;)

    I spent a couple of hours running GT5P 550PP online last night (I think I prefer the lower PP racing in GT5P on the whole). I then ran a few TT laps in Arcade in the stock Clio on Suzuka trying to get in the top 100. After about half an hour I got a 92nd spot. I went to look at the rankings & noticed that I also had a position (with my GTP name) set back in March 2008 - 94th, two one hundredths of a second different from my new time! I guess that's a testament to the consistency of GT5P's physics, &/or my driving!
     
  11. TrievelA7X

    TrievelA7X

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    Welcome to racing. The difference with real-life racing, and any video game, is that in real life you can't afford to crash. ever. Try playing GT5P without wiping out, ever. Drive slow enough that you are sure you will not crash, and see if maybe you stop diving into corners as hard as possible. You're learning to drive GT games in a "go to fast - hit the wall, then slow down until I reach the limit" mode, instead of driving where you know you're safe and speeding up until you don't think it can take anymore.
    You see? you're playing the game bass-akwards from how you'd drive IRL, that's not the games fault, it's yours.

    Actually no. "Most" as you put it, would put terrible times around a track, especially in these higher-powered cars. If you put average joes in a stock Z06, and throw them on a racetrack, they will A. Spin out, B. Wait to long to brake, C. Brake to early, D. Go hellaciously slow. Fact is most people can't handle these cars IRL, not at the limit, or anywhere near it.
    Not to mention, IRL you can't afford to crash in the first turn at Suzuka 100 times finding the perfect braking point.

    There's some videos you could watch... They're called Mischief. It's a whole series, and in one of them, there's a bunch of rich guys trying to race their exotics around some kind of track, built partly of an oval, and partly road course, I don't think its Daytona road course, but maybe. Anyway, almost every single one spins out. Good stuff.
     
  12. Zathra5_

    Zathra5_

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    "Actually no. "Most" as you put it, would put terrible times around a track, especially in these higher-powered cars. If you put average joes in a stock Z06, and throw them on a racetrack, they will A. Spin out, B. Wait to long to brake, C. Brake to early, D. Go hellaciously slow."

    reminds me of the Top Gear where they had that German girl taking a Ford van around the Nordschleife. If I remember correctly, Hammond was in the passenger seat and looked like he probably soiled himself. It was hilarious seeing this van pass porsches and other high end cars on a race track.
     
  13. G.T.Ace

    G.T.Ace

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    Yeah that was Sabine Schmitz, there are only a few people with the same experience on the Nordschleife. Trievel is right btw.^^
     
  14. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    I'm not entirely sure what Sabine Schmidt has got to do with anything (wasn't it Clarkson in a Jag she was competing with) but I think "The Jenius" meant a decent pace, as in not driving like an old lady, but not close to the pace of a professional. Plus the Ring is hardly your average track!

    A group of us were taken racing as a thank you for a project we finished. I would say 80% managed to do reasonable laps without spinning or leaving the circuit, although it's true to say that people instinctively started slow and built speed up.
     
  15. TrievelA7X

    TrievelA7X

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    The point was a professional in a Ford van was passing Porsches, I believe.

    But what you consider a "reasonable lap" here, is what we would call "losing to the AI in beginners events" in Gran Turismo.
    You see, when you turn on the game, you either have to lose, or push much harder than most people would starting out IRL. This trend only continues as the cars grow continually faster, and the opponents gain speed/skill as well.
    The only true way to test it, would be to start out the game racing something slow, through license tests, practice runs, driving as though if you crash, you're financially finished, until you become skilled enough to beat the AI without crashing, and play through the entire game that way. Imagine how long that could take. (that's why people don't do it that way.)
     
  16. Biggles

    Biggles

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    Well, no, that's not racing - it's Time Trial. That was my whole point, racing is different, because you have to drive more conservatively - that's as it should be. But try to set a top 100 time in Prologue without pushing to the max on each corner (when there are thousands of other wannabes pushing to the max), & you're not going to do too well.

    Actually, on reflection, I realized that there is a fairly simple explanation for why FC feels more "organic" than GT5P: there are no ghost cars. When you are hot-lapping in FC, there is no ghost car (& certainly no top 10 online ghost cars) to pace yourself against. That means you have to take each lap as a whole, rather than measuring your performance in little increments. This removes a lot of the "obsessive-compulsive" element from the hot-lapping. (While FC does not have ghost cars, it does record the fastest laps while actually racing (including any drafting effects), both online & offline, which is the leaderboard that most people go to, to measure their performance.)

    You have to realize that I spent hundreds of hours in GT5P before I ever started playing FC. I recorded a Div 2 silver TT (one position away from gold, for what it's worth), & have recorded some decent hot lap times, some of which still stand almost a year & a half after I recorded them. So, while I'm not the fastest GT5P racer by any means, I am at least, experienced & reasonably competent, & because of my experience in both games, I feel that I have an informed opinion when comparing Prologue & FC.

    When I started this thread, I was really only promoting FC as an alternative to GT5P because it offered a whole lot of good new tracks, the ability to race a variety of cars competitively on those tracks (unlike GT5P, which as you yourself just commented in another thread, only really has a handful of cars that can be raced competitively), & the ability to structure the online experience the way you want. All those advantages over GT5P will presumably be eliminated when GT5 arrives, but the one other significant area where FC shines, is in the implementation of FFB. As neither you, nor GT.Ace apparently use a FFB wheel, you're just going to have to take my word on this. ;)
     
  17. TrievelA7X

    TrievelA7X

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    Yes, it is. Watch some racing, almost if not all the drivers use braking points. Why? Because it's more consistent and accurate.

    So turn your ghost off.:idea:

    Excellent.

    Well, a handful of people seem to think it's got a great physics engine, and it doesn't.
    And I personally don't really care for FFB, I just want more precise steering, throttle, and braking inputs. I don't believe FFB is going to make a bad physics engine feel realistic. There are just certain things you should see and hear, like exactly how, when, and where your car should slide that matter much more to me than a wheel vibrating.
     
  18. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    Well each to their own, but perhaps you'd like to elaborate as to why you feel the FC physics engine is so bad (which seems to be you implication)? I don't think I said it was the best and I don't think Biggles said that when he started this thread, but as someone who has been driving almost as long as you've been alive it seems fairly reasonable to me. As I said in a previous post the GT5P one seems more sophisticated but, for me, fails to communicate what's going on very well.

    Going back to the Ford Transit at The Ring, she may have passed other cars but we don't know if the people driving them were pushing or not. A lot of people just go there for fun.

    That's by the by, I'd be interested to hear your criticisms of the FC physics engine though.
     
  19. TrievelA7X

    TrievelA7X

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    For starters, I can't tell you what FFB you get on the wheel in FC. I just don't think you need it. FFB from a wheel without all the other noises and vibrations you feel through your body, not to mention lateral g force, and front/rear g forces, is meaningless in my book. All those other senses make up much more of driving than the vibration of a wheel.
    Nothing felt real to me, when I was braking I couldn't tell how hard, I couldn't tell how fast I was going, when I turned it just kind drove over that way, no push, no pull, no play. It didn't oversteer or understeer, tracked to perfectly under all conditions, and when it did spin, the car didn't slide, it spun like they're still using good 'ol turntable physics.
    I remember specifically once a slammed the brakes into a corner as usual, and ran off the track, the cars never changed during all of it, it just turned like any other situation, including when I went into the grass.
    The poor graphics take away visual, and the complete lack of vehicle character were enough for me to quit.
    The whole game just felt extremely arcadish, up and down, looked like an arcade game too.
    It's kinda like in older games, where if you made a small mistake entering a corner on the limit you could just brake and save yourself, like brakes save the world. In GT5P if your on the edge, you can't always just slow down and stay on the track. I would agree that GT5P is to unforgiving, if you agree with that, but FC reminded me of games from 10 years or more ago.

    maybe you've lost your edge old man:lol: I kid of course, but honestly, have you seen people driving on the road lately? Driving on streets and highways have zero to do with racing. unless your breaking lots of laws, which we technically aren't supposed to talk about on this forum:D
     
  20. klondike

    klondike

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    No offence but to me it seems you are talking about a completely diferent game.

    The way you describe the physics is simply not true. And about the graphics well they are not as high quality as GT5 P, but they arent so bad eather also they give me much more feel of actual racing rather than the very sterile looks of GT5 P gives.

    Anyway each have their own likings for me i enjoyed FC. I think it is a much better game compared to GT5 P. Mostly because the game has many good tracks, it has trophies, and much more content while GT5 P is lacking a lot gameplay wise, it looks nice and drives nice, but lack options.

    Also i see it more as a additional thing having one game does not exclude having the other too for me.

    I will defenetly also get Supercar challenge, and NFS Shift if its going to be as good as some rumours say.

    I think its very disapointing that GT5 is not ready yet. We are more than 3 years after the launch of the PS3 system and 1 of its biggest game's is not out yet. It even dont have a release date yet.

    All we hear from the developer is a lot of talk about this or that. I would rather had the game now with a litle less content than having to wait to play the new generation driving game on my system til after 4 years after i bought it.
     
  21. TrievelA7X

    TrievelA7X

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    Sure, but then when it came out everyone, (yourself included) would be complaining about it's lack of content, just as you are now.
    And you can bet it's coming before christmas, I've saying this all year, and now the front page of this site believes it as well. because they can't afford to wait another year, and christmas is the best time of year to do it. Maybe they'll have enough copies this time too.:idea:

    I have to ask though, you mention content in GT5P. How many cars are in FC? 70? it has more tracks, but way less cars. You liked FC because you expected less. Imagine if GT5P came out with the same amount of cars as FC. You'd have been boiling.

    It sounds like the only thing you like about FC's "physics" is FFB, which isn't even a part of physics in the game really, so, why the comparison?
     
  22. Mad Matt

    Mad Matt

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    Thanks for the reply, despite the cheek about my age!

    As I said in an earlier post a lot of what the game has to do is to communicate the sense of movement and so on by other means. For me the sounds and visuals in GT5P don't do it very well. I find the FFB in FC to be a good medium for doing that, albeit not perfect. I can imagine that the game loses a lot of its appeal if you don't use or get anything out of the FFB.

    As a previous poster commented it does sound like you're talking about another game compared to my experiences but it's interesting to hear from someone with a different point of view.

    As for me losing my edge, I don't think I ever had one to lose :-)

    I have raced a little and driven in several countries without speed limits or on mountain roads where the speed limit wasn't a factor. If you've ever driven in Italian cities you'll probably agree that having a good sense of the size of your car and the ability to judge your braking points is an essential skill!
     
  23. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

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    By definition, a game you play in your living room will never be able to fully replicate the driving experience. So, devs from every software and hardware (wheels, specifically) company try to give you as much as possible.

    The game you are playing on your TV can give you visuals and sound. The wheel can give you physical feedback from what you are doing.

    Are you saying that Force Feedback wheels don't add up to the gaming experience? Do you think the satisfaction you get from playing racing games is equal if you play them with a controller or with a wheel?

    If you are - as your post seems to imply - than fair enough. But I don't agree, obviously. And I really hope all devs from racing games work as hard as they can (together with wheel makers like Logitech and Fanatec) to improve the "realism" of the feedback the wheels provide. Even the pedals feedback, I want to feel in my foot when ABS kicks in, as I feel it IRL.




    Again, different players get different experiences. I will assume that your experience was made with assists off and that you still can save any misjudgement in FC corner-entry just by using the brakes. And I compliment you for that, because I have seen many very fast, very experienced players in FC (and GT5P) go off in corners. Neither of them feel FC to be arcade but, as I said, no two players "feel" the same way.

    The way I see it, GT5P is much more forgiving than FC. But maybe that is because I just feel the wheel in GT5P easier to handle, because it's so linear.
     
  24. AERO_HDT

    AERO_HDT

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    If I make a mistake heading into a corner in FC, I try and correct it and usually either spin and hit a wall or understeer off onto the grass. That's one thing I like about it is that I find it much more difficult than Gran Turismo to correct a mistake. If I outbrake myself, I'm doomed, it seems like there's a fine line between being on the limit and being over it in FC.

    The physics engine is certainly different, but it is by no means bad. I dunno what games you guys were playing 10 years ago, but Ferrari Challenge does not feel like Gran Turismo 2 or Need For Speed High Stakes in any way shape or form, LOL.

    Trust me, I grew up on Continental Circus!

    ;)
     
  25. Whistle Snap

    Whistle Snap

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    Taking a car out on track in Ferrari Challenge is just more involving and fun.

    Prologue is just flat out dull. Hopefully, GT5 delivers a vast improvement in weight/momentum shift and wheel support.


    And people saying that Ferrari Challenge has PS2 graphics :dunce:

    as a whole it's a lot more detailed than Prologue, GT does have the better lighting of the two though, but no way in hell are FC's graphics poor.
    http://i27.tinypic.com/4ke7sz.jpg
     
  26. Biggles

    Biggles

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    I'm not sure it's worth spending any more verbiage on this. Trievel's opinion appears to be based on renting FC: how much time did he spend playing FC? How many cars did he try? How many tracks? We know he didn't use a wheel, & dismisses FFB in general as "vibration".

    Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but there is an obvious asymmetry to the experience that these opinions are based on: it's a safe bet that everyone playing FC also has played GT5P a lot, whereas I suspect most people critical of FC have barely played FC at all. And if you're not playing FC with a good FFB wheel, you're missing a big part of the experience that makes FC so enjoyable.


    PS: interesting juxtaposition of images Whistle Snap, although the choice of cars seems a little unfair! ;) I'm not sure the pics really show accurately the superiority of GT5P's graphics, but they do show the background detail in FC. While I would criticize FC for looking, overall, oddly arcadey & unrealistic, GT5P has a sterile quality to the presentation that is, in a completely different way, a little unsatisfying.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2009
  27. TrievelA7X

    TrievelA7X

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    I don't play GT5P with a wheel either, but I don't hear you complaining about that.
    Oh, and there's a wheel made specially for FC, did you use that? No, because it's crap isn't it?
     
  28. Radracing

    Radracing Premium

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    I could think of Ten reasons not to buy Ferrari Challenge.....:tdown::tdown::tdown:
     
  29. AERO_HDT

    AERO_HDT

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    LOL, I could think of Ten reasons not to buy Gran Turismo 5 Prologue.....

    ;)
     
  30. RacerPaul

    RacerPaul

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    go on then both of you, give us your lists. should make for interesting reading :)