2008 Belgian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeterJB
  • 493 comments
  • 23,719 views
Signed. 👍
I don't really care about this already. Lets all just forget about it and enjoy F1 as it is...... The FIA can give penalties as they like, but each of the members of the FIA (expecially Mosley) can rot in hell for all I care. Nothing in this life better than a payback at judgment day. 👍
 
A very good point there is that when they went past the spun Rosberg, Kimi overtook Hamilton under yellow flags.

How has this not been mentioned?

Good point if you're right. Were the yellows up by that time?

They should give Kimi a 25 sec penalty too, then he'd be like DNF + 25secs :lol:
 
Sagaris: "normally not much overtaking takes place at La source"

It's a bit pointless to talk about 'normally'. There was nothing normal about the situation. They were driving on old dry tyres on a rapidly wettening track, which is why Hamilton was on Raikkonen's gearbox in the first place. Hamilton is just way, way faster than Raikkonen (and everyone else) in the rain, especially on bad tyres; it's one of his skills. If conditions had been 'normal' there wouldn't have been a battle at all, as Raikkonen wasn't having any trouble keeping Hamilton a safe distance behind him in the dry.
 
Oh, cmon. Don't make it seem as if Hamilton was punished for nothing. He was punished because he gained an advantage by cutting a chicane and that is illegal.

Apparently that's not why he was punished (notwithstanding the fact that he didn't - he cut the chicane to avoid a collision with Kimi who, justifiably, shut the door on him and, when he rejoined the track he let Kimi past on part throttle and at a 6km/h disdvantage).

He has been punished for leaving the track... The stewards have cited Article 30.3 (a):


Stewards determine a breach of the regulations has been committed', listed as 'Fact' that Hamilton 'Cut the chicane and gained an advantage' and specified as 'Offence' the 'Breach of Article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 Formula One Sporting Regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.'

The Code says:

Article 30.3 (a)
During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g)
The racetrack alone shall be used by drivers during the race.

Which, if applied to the letter, would exclude pretty much every car from this race. Including Raikonnen who left the track at La Source on lap 2 trying to avoid a collision with Hamilton (gaining a place) and again on lap 43 both using the wide run-off to close the gap with Hamilton and again trying to avoid a collision with both Hamilton and Rosberg (gaining a place under waved yellows).
 
Last edited:
Sagaris: "normally not much overtaking takes place at La source"

It's a bit pointless to talk about 'normally'. There was nothing normal about the situation. They were driving on old dry tyres on a rapidly wettening track, which is why Hamilton was on Raikkonen's gearbox in the first place. Hamilton is just way, way faster than Raikkonen (and everyone else) in the rain, especially on bad tyres; it's one of his skills. If conditions had been 'normal' there wouldn't have been a battle at all, as Raikkonen wasn't having any trouble keeping Hamilton a safe distance behind him in the dry.

If conditions had been normal Hamilton would never have bent the start of lap 2. When the hell has "if conditions had been normal" borne any relevance in F1? There were a bunch of cars going really really fast = conditions were normal. There was weather = situation also normal. Something happened that played into the hands of a driver = still normal. And Raikkonen was actually losing ground to Hamilton. Whether he was losing it fast enough for Lewis to get an overtake in is debatable but I was on the edge of my seat hoping Kimi screwed up (situation normal) :sly:
 
Last edited:
P3nT4gR4m: all I mean is that Hamilton was able to pass Raikkonen on that corner simply because he drives way better in the rain than Raikkonen does (like, seconds per lap better). If conditions had been normal - i.e. it had not been raining - Hamilton would not have had a shot at passing Raikkonen there.
 
I worked yesterday so I just got to watch the race, I also stayed away from the forum because there is always some fool posting results in the wrong forum!

First off, Wow, what an exciting race!
Now to the chicane incident.
As soon as Hamilton passed in the hairpin I said "he just screwed up! The reason?
He gained a competitive advantage by short cutting the chicane, Kimi had the corner, he was in the lead & Hamilton should have backed off & followed him through the chicane, by short cutting it he was in a much better competitive position going into turn 1, if he'd have backed off & followed Kimi he would have been a couple of car lengths back & wouldn't have had a shot at passing in turn 1 but most likely would have been close enough to draft by in the straight.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.

A 10 grid spot penalty at Monza would probably been a sufficient penalty, but since when has the FIA ever been logical about anything?

Short story, Hamilton screwed up & got the penalty.
 
Oh, cmon. Don't make it seem as if Hamilton was punished for nothing. He was punished because he gained an advantage by cutting a chicane and that is illegal.
True, however it is also standard and accepted pratice in F1 that if you gain a position under a situation such as this and then allow that drive to regain position no penalty willbe applied.

He was not in an advantagous position on the straight after he allowed KR to pass him, unless you are trying to say that being behind a car and going slower than it now consitutes an advatage?



He would never have been so close if he had exited Bus Stop properly, especially after trying to make an overtaking manouver in that corner.
How can you catagorically state that he would not have been that close? Sorry, but you can qualify that at all.


He would have been atleast a few car lenghs back, normally not much overtaking takes place at La source. Not nearly as much as at the bus stop and Les Combes.
And as has been said by others the situations were not normal at all.



Being so close because of cutting a chicane, whatever the circumstances, is illegal. Its an infringement.
Would you mind providing us with the exact FIA regulation that sates you can't be within a certain distance of anyother car after cutting a chicane?


That standard established penalty for such an infringement is a drive through penalty.
Funny I didn't notice that a drive through penalty was given?

Actually no standard penalty exists for the vast majority of regulation breaches at all.

FIA Sporting regulations
Penalties may be inflicted as follows in order of increasing severity :
− reprimand (blame);
− fines;
− time penalty;
− exclusion;
− suspension;
− disqualification.
Time penalty means a penalty expressed in minutes and/or seconds.
Any one of the above penalties can only be inflicted after an enquiry has been held and, in case of one of the last three, the concerned party must be summoned to give them the opportunity of presenting their defence.
For the FIA Formula One World Championship and the FIA World Rally Championship, a penalty consisting of the withdrawal of points over the whole of the Championship may be imposed.
Source - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/917D67F70F1C5EE7C12573B7003DCEC5/$FILE/CSI%20modif%20ap%20AGO%20oct%2007%20ANG%20-%20Applic.%2001.01.08%20-%20clean.pdf

No standard penalty exists for any offence in the FIA sporting regulations, it is down to the stewards to issue the penalty, that is half the problem with the current situation.



He gained a competitive advantage by short cutting the chicane, Kimi had the corner, he was in the lead & Hamilton should have backed off & followed him through the chicane, by short cutting it he was in a much better competitive position going into turn 1, if he'd have backed off & followed Kimi he would have been a couple of car lengths back & wouldn't have had a shot at passing in turn 1 but most likely would have been close enough to draft by in the straight.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Its highly debatable that Kimi had the corner at all, and what is most certainly true, given that they were wheel to wheel, is had Hamilton backed off as you suggest, they would have locked wheels and a nice big accident would have occured. Running wide was just about the only option avaliable. Once back on the track Hamilton backed off and allowed KR to pass him, as I asked earlier would you now care to explain how being behind someone and being slower than someone gives you an advantage?



Regards

Scaff
 
Last edited:
Good point if you're right. Were the yellows up by that time?

They should give Kimi a 25 sec penalty too, then he'd be like DNF + 25secs :lol:

I think they didn't do that because Hamilton went off the track then it was deemed okay for Raikkonen to pass as Lewis was no longer on the track. Raikkonen wouldn't have lost a position from the penalty anyway.
 
scaff: a drive through penalty was the sanction given. It wasn't a 25 second penalty, exactly. They decided to issue a drive through penalty. As the race had concluded, the drive through penalty is applied as a 25 second penalty to the completed race time. This is in the regulations. It was added after Schumacher's infamous last-lap drive "through" penalty: if a drive through penalty is issued near or after the end of a race it's just done as a time addition. (I think it's if it's issued within three laps of the end of the race, but IMBW on the detail).
 
You know how there's a rule about not wishing something bad happens to a driver? Well does the same rule apply to the stewards? I mean say for example I were to wish the three retards responsible for yesterdays decision were to come down with a rather nasty case of exploding head syndrome. Just as a hypothetical example, you understand, would I be subject to the same rule?

No reason, just wondering..
 
You know how there's a rule about not wishing something bad happens to a driver? Well does the same rule apply to the stewards? I mean say for example I were to wish the three retards responsible for yesterdays decision were to come down with a rather nasty case of exploding head syndrome. Just as a hypothetical example, you understand, would I be subject to the same rule?

No reason, just wondering..

I think that wishing harm upon people in general isn't allowed. Check the AUP. :)
 
If he had done what he could've (take the second part of the chicane) Raikkonen might have had enough cushion to safely negotiate the last 2 laps safely... Hamilton may've been caught by Massa after losing the time to do it.

He didn't, Raikkonen crashed trying to keep position with him, and now he only has one Ferrari driver to worry about in the championship.

Please can you clarify this? It reads to me that you are suggesting it was Hamilton's fault that Raikkonen crashed into the wall (whilst, incidentally, being off the track).

At this time Hamilton can acknowledge that his attempt to pass on the first corner has not prevailed and (this is the important thing) can brake and still make the second corner. It it important to note he makes a conscious decision not to attempt it and turns while he is still able to have the car only go over tarseal and not 'grass' his already compromised grip levels of his tyres.

Why? Because if he was to break and make the corner he would lose any momentum and would then need to try accelerate a 600kg/800hp car in wet conditions from a pratically standstill position (and this is the kicker) on dry (effectively slicks/ no grip and with incorrect pressures, lost from the last 3/4 of the lap) tyres.

What do you suppose would have happened if this was his choice? You should be reminded you is his regulatory mandate, and there was no mitigating factors that didn't make this an option, like a snatched brake would make this attempt dangerous for him or someone nearby... they were going 40mph at most, he could still concede and make this corner.

If Hamilton had done this, and he should have, he knew the difficulty of accelerating the car, while trying to get the car around the second corner of the chicane (and not on a 'normal' racing line) would have at best lost him bucketloads of time (and track position with Raikkonen) and possibly (maybe even more probably), had him spun when he tried to do this while not losing too much time. Then hello Mr Massa.

He would never have been so close if he had exited Bus Stop properly

When Hamilton turned off the circuit, at this point:

Spa2008-1.jpg


... his front wheel is alongside Kimi's rear. If he had continued on track but braking, there would have been contact and Kimi would've spun. That would be considered to be 'Causing an Avoidable Incident' - something that his teammate was given a penalty for in the very same race.

Secondly, Hamilton's nose was 3/4 of a car behind Raikkonen's - yet by the time they got halfway down the next straight, he was a full car length behind. Where is the advantage gained? Jumping the chicane benefitted Kimi as much as Lewis, in that the Ferrari still had 4 wheels attached and was pointing the right way.

Ardius: I found an onboard camera in another thread, hold on:



No wonder Hamilton went to the outside, given how early Raikkonen braked!
 
Last edited:
First off, Wow, what an exciting race!
Now to the chicane incident.
As soon as Hamilton passed in the hairpin I said "he just screwed up! The reason?
He gained a competitive advantage by short cutting the chicane, Kimi had the corner, he was in the lead & Hamilton should have backed off & followed him through the chicane, by short cutting it he was in a much better competitive position going into turn 1, if he'd have backed off & followed Kimi he would have been a couple of car lengths back & wouldn't have had a shot at passing in turn 1 but most likely would have been close enough to draft by in the straight.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.

A 10 grid spot penalty at Monza would probably been a sufficient penalty, but since when has the FIA ever been logical about anything?

Short story, Hamilton screwed up & got the penalty.
I agree entirely with this.
Roo
When Hamilton turned off the circuit, at this point:

Spa2008-1.jpg


... his front wheel is alongside Kimi's rear.
But not interlocking. He couldve and should've dropped back. He had the pace to get past Kimi before Eau Rouge or up the hill into Les Combes. By jumping the chicane he kept a better position and was able to pass Kimi because he jumped the chicane, not in spite of jumping it.
 
Note that we can talk about any single incident and every single video frame here. Hamilton had to make a decision whether to brake or to cut the chicane within a split second.
 
Note that we can talk about any single incident and every single video frame here. Hamilton had to make a decision whether to brake or to cut the chicane within a split second.

Well, I think that video put it in perspective well enough, he seemed almost surprised when Kimi braked at the bus stop. It certainly all happened very fast.
 
Roo
No wonder Hamilton went to the outside, given how early Raikkonen braked!



Holeeee crap. What astounding reflexes and great driving.

Look how early Kimi brakes, and Hamilton does an amazing job not to slam into the back of him.

That put him in a position in which he had no choice to go to the outside, then had no choice to cut the chicane. He did brilliantly to avoid TWO accidents and gave the place back fairly.

Given the difference in braking points to the chicane, i don't think it would have mattered at all if Hamilton was 2 car lengths behind. Kimi was breaking so much earlier for the corners he would have passed him easily.

Stupid stupid decision.
 
scaff: a drive through penalty was the sanction given. It wasn't a 25 second penalty, exactly. They decided to issue a drive through penalty. As the race had concluded, the drive through penalty is applied as a 25 second penalty to the completed race time. This is in the regulations. It was added after Schumacher's infamous last-lap drive "through" penalty: if a drive through penalty is issued near or after the end of a race it's just done as a time addition. (I think it's if it's issued within three laps of the end of the race, but IMBW on the detail).

My bad, you are correct on that one. It doesn't however change the fact that no 'standard' penalties exist in the sporting regulations.

Regards

Scaff
 
Apparently that's not why he was punished (notwithstanding the fact that he didn't - he cut the chicane to avoid a collision with Kimi who, justifiably, shut the door on him and, when he rejoined the track he let Kimi past on part throttle and at a 6km/h disdvantage).

Which, if applied to the letter, would exclude pretty much every car from this race. Including Raikonnen who left the track at La Source on lap 2 trying to avoid a collision with Hamilton (gaining a place) and again on lap 43 both using the wide run-off to close the gap with Hamilton and again trying to avoid a collision with both Hamilton and Rosberg (gaining a place under waved yellows).
As strange as that is, you are right he shouldnt be punished for leaving the track, and im sure hes not being punished for it. Why the FIA released it like that, I have no clue.

He should, however be punished for the advantage he gained by leaving the track, to make a pass using that advantage. While no the same, it is similar to pass by Alonso at Suzuka I mentioned earlier. Same penalty would have likely been given had Alonso not given the place back.

 
I don't see the difference between the discussed action and Alonsos maneuver that legitimates Hamiltons penalty. Anyone?
 
Alonso totally rescinded the position...

Went back behind line astern at what could be deemed racing position, then attacked (albeit aided by long straight and slipstream)

Hamilton stayed left of Raikkonen, when Raikkonen tried going left but saw Hamilton car in his space (as he wasn't totally rescinding), unsure of having enough room he he moved back right. Hamilton immediately attacked. At no stage did he resume what you would call racing position (following the positioned/lead car).

Pretty clear in my mind.
 
Last edited:
He should, however be punished for the advantage he gained by leaving the track, to make a pass using that advantage. While no the same, it is similar to pass by Alonso at Suzuka I mentioned earlier. Same penalty would have likely been given had Alonso not given the place back.

In both cases:
A driver attempts to overtake on the outside.
The driver cuts the chicane.*
The driver gives back the place, getting directly behind their opponent.
The driver overtakes into the next corner.

*Hamilton was forced to cut the chicane by being forced off by Räikkönen, Räikkönen was at fault in this case. Alonso cut the chicane because he didn't brake hard enough, Alonso was at fault in that case.

So if either driver deserved a penalty for these maneuvers, it was Alonso, his chicane cut was caused by not braking hard enough, while Hamilton's was caused by being forced off by the other driver. Both drivers gave the position back in the same, acceptable way and both drivers overtake into the next corner, again in an acceptable way.

In my opinion, both Hamilton's and Alonso's maneuvers were acceptable and neither deserved a penalty.
 
Last edited:
Hamilton was never directly behind Raikkonen (in a racing position before he attacked).

Look at Alonso, totally behind even obsured in the camera shot
 
Last edited:
Where in the rules does it say that "rescind" means anything more than giving the other driver his position back?

I'm okay with the incident being discussed, but there were many other incidents in this race that should have been punished harder. Yet, they weren't, which sounds like pure arbitariness for me.
 
Last edited:
Back