2008 Belgian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter PeterJB
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Roo
Right, sorted. (The following are .jpgs, don't try to click on them.)

On the way into the chicane, Hamilton was this far behind Raikkonen:

Spa20082.jpg


On the way out, he was this far behind:

Spa20083.jpg


That's why the penalty was given.

From the outside angle, it looks like there was no difference in the gap from before and after the incident, hence the confusion. It's not until the onboard footage was posted that any proper judgement could be made. The stewards would've seen the onboard footage on the day.
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That shows he gave the position back to Kimi. If that is really what the stewards have based their decision on then it shows it was a poor decision. How as a driver can you give the guy in front the same distance back from before a corner when you have had an incident, especially as a lot of the time these incidents are happening in poor weather or to avoid someone else's mistake in the middle of the corner.

I'm afraid we will just have to sit it out and wait for the appeal outcome, anybody know when the appeal date is set? Is it after the racing season has completed or am I being too sceptical?
 
Scaff
While I agree we can't tuen back time, it is more than possiable for the penalty to be revoked, thats the exact point of the appeal.

It is unlikley to be revoked (FIA appeals rarely uphold appeals - particularly those against stewards), but its not impossiable.


Regards

Scaff
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Well since the race at Monza is in a few days time, I don't think the FIA would have time to revoked the points in the next few days. Although anything can happen in F1 nowadays, so all of us just have to wait and see what will happen next...... 👍

DQuaN: Wow, that would certainly be something. So if anything happens at Monza, that decision would totally cause an uproar to both of the teams......
 
“We acted professionally and within the FIA rules. Hamilton took a short cut inside of the corner while off the track”

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/09/10/fia-official-italy-loves-me-the-uk-hates-me/
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From FIA regulation:

16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by
any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to
the race director for investigation) which :

- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving
more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.
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I agree there will be many ways to read an understand the quotes above.

However, a reasonable approach would have been to consider without prejudice both drivers attitude regarding the “rules”.

Without too much effort I can see at least 2 points that could be “charged” against Raikkonnen’s behavior. Don’t take me wrong, I’m not suggesting that he “Brake-checked” Hamilton or “Pushed” him out of the track “on purpose”.

What I saw is two fantastic drivers and teams fighting to their respective limits, and not giving up despite track conditions that were turning to a nightmare. Isn’t that what the supposed most exquisite racing discipline should be all about?

In my opinion Hamilton has the lead turning in at the chicane, since he just “easily over-braked” the Finn struggling with an uncomfortable Ferrari under those particular conditions. I feel sorry Kimi didn’t finish that awesome race, sure he would have deserved his place on a “real” podium. Actually I wonder would we have all this debate hadn’t he crashed his car?

In my view it’s no more than a 50/50 race matter, and should “entertaining” issues be involved, a 10 place grid penalty would have been way more adequate.

It’s a shame such an inaccurate decision is casting it’s shadow on this so far nice 2008 season. With 50 more points, I know the things aren’t settled for anybody, but just imagine should Lewis Hamilton misses the title for less than 4 units? I hope the authorities will have the sense and responsibility for correcting their mistake an not turn yet another whole season into a complete FIAsco.

This is not just about one race, one driver, one car, one corner or one team.

So it’s called the F1 Circus, but let’s hope the show isn’t spoiled by too many clowns. As for Spa 2009, shouldn’t things change, may I suggest they make it straight to the Casino, instead of wasting their time on the track...
 
Interesting that it is a Spanish article! Is it a tabloid? :rolleyes:

Care to translate it for us, or find any other sources?
 
Here's my take on what happened, basically c&p'd from an msn convo:

Hamilton put himself in a comprimising position - there was no way he would have got past so there was no need to try.
Raikkonen was always going to block him off on the exit of turn 18 and lead out of 19
so when he did try, he had the option of three things;
either turn into kimi and crash, go wide across the chicane and gain time on him, or brake, allow kimi through, miss the apex of 18 and lose two or three tenths (the latter being the correct sporting option)
Hamilton chose to cut the chicane which put him ahead of kimi. He knew he should also let Kimi past, but the reason for punishment was that he let him past and was behind him by less that a wheel's length, whereas if he had:
a) not tried to overtake in the first place, he would have been further back but possibly get a slipstream
or b) done what he did but backed off instead of cutting the chicane, where he would be half a second behind by that point.
So the facts dictate that Hamilton gained an advantage in that he ended up closer to Kimi than he would have been in the other two, more acceptable scenarios.

That is why I think that Lewis was in the wrong, however harsh the penalty may have been.
 
autosport
"Well, that's his driving, that's all," he said. "That is how he drives. If you don't have the balls to brake late then that is your problem! At the end of the day, in those situations it is the driver who can feel the grip more and put the car more on the edge.

"And I know I am great in those conditions. I felt the grip more than him, I knew where to place my car and I did place it in different positions to him and I found the grip."
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indeed
 
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Ross!
Hamilton put himself in a comprimising position - there was no way he would have got past so there was no need to try.

a) not tried to overtake in the first place, he would have been further back but possibly get a slipstream
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Have you watched the onboard video? Hamilton didn't look like he was intending to overtake there, he was slipstreaming Raikkonen when Raikkonen decided to brake early (though this isn't putting blame on Raikkonen, because he was likely braking early to make up for the bad handling of the Ferrari and tyres in those conditions). He had to move to the outside otherwise he would have run into the back of Raikkonen before they even got to the chicane.
Once he was on the outside and outbraking the Ferrari, he was pretty much forced to make a move of it (keeping in mind he had to make a decision in a split second).
 
Ross!
Hamilton put himself in a comprimising position - there was no way he would have got past so there was no need to try.
Raikkonen was always going to block him off on the exit of turn 18 and lead out of 19
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Not really, Kimi was defending the inside line and braked much earlier than Lewis was expecting. He had no choice but to go to the outside or risk a collision.


Ross!
So the facts dictate that Hamilton gained an advantage in that he ended up closer to Kimi than he would have been in the other two, more acceptable scenarios.
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Again, not really.

I think this article best sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Lewis Hamilton was pushed out across the Spa chicane escape road by Kimi Raikkonen, rejoined ahead, backed off to allow Kimi to repass as required by the rules, went round the back of him and overtook him again. It seemed very clear-cut.

But if you were a lawyer tasked with pushing Ferrari’s case, looking for any bit of legal daylight in which to create doubt, you would question whether Lewis would have been close enough to do that move if he'd not missed the chicane, regardless of the reason why he missed it.

It’s actually a ‘what if’ question to which there can be no answer.

To compare the two scenarios – what happened, with what would have happened had Hamilton not missed the chicane – is impossible.

At this stage of the race the McLaren had vastly more grip than the Ferrari because of the way the red car loses dry tyre temperature far more quickly and totally than the McLaren in wet conditions.

So, had Lewis tucked in behind the Ferrari through the chicane, he’d have accelerated out of there far faster because of his vastly superior traction.

He would have crossed the start/finish line going faster than the Ferrari and therefore have been perfectly placed to have made full use of his vastly superior braking grip to make an outbraking move into La Source.

As it was, he crossed the start/finish line alongside the Ferrari but travelling 6km/h slower, as he was in the process of allowing Kimi by.

Which of those two scenarios would have made for a more advantageous situation for Lewis – alongside but going slower or partly behind but going faster – is impossible to judge.

Exactly how much more tyre grip did he have? Which way would it have led Kimi to move? Impossible to determine.

Which leaves us with the question: If it’s impossible to judge (which it was) then why the hell make a judgement?
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Ardius
Have you watched the onboard video? Hamilton didn't look like he was intending to overtake there, he was slipstreaming Raikkonen when Raikkonen decided to brake early (though this isn't putting blame on Raikkonen, because he was likely braking early to make up for the bad handling of the Ferrari and tyres in those conditions). He had to move to the outside otherwise he would have run into the back of Raikkonen before they even got to the chicane.
Once he was on the outside and outbraking the Ferrari, he was pretty much forced to make a move of it (keeping in mind he had to make a decision in a split second).
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I'm sorry but the split second argument that everyone is using is rubbish. Every driver has to make decisions in short amounts of time, and Hamilton himself said he had decided to cut the chicane.

As for the outside, to me it seems that Kimi braked only a tiny bit before the normal braking zone, and Louis went in too deep (not that that is any wrong-doing on his part), hence why he was so far round the outside of Kimi to start with. Lewis's options were clear, and he refused to take the sensible one which would have been to simply back right off, albeit losing a few tenths to Kimi.

DQuaN
Not really, Kimi was defending the inside line and braked much earlier than Lewis was expecting. He had no choice but to go to the outside or risk a collision.
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Again, I think what Lewis did in response to that was asking for an investigation.
 
DQuaN
Interesting that it is a Spanish article! Is it a tabloid? :rolleyes:

Care to translate it for us, or find any other sources?
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Autosport
And the Briton denied Raikkonen was braking too early during his fight.

"Well, that's his driving, that's all," he said. "That is how he drives. If you don't have the balls to brake late then that is your problem! At the end of the day, in those situations it is the driver who can feel the grip more and put the car more on the edge.

"And I know I am great in those conditions. I felt the grip more than him, I knew where to place my car and I did place it in different positions to him and I found the grip."
Click to expand...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70474
 
It's usual for a driver to brake early when defending his position, inducing the other car to make a mistake. Everyone does that in F1. Though judging by the onboard video on Hamilton's car it looks like Kimi was braking early because he lacked grip.
 
Ross!
Here's my take on what happened, basically c&p'd from an msn convo:

Hamilton put himself in a comprimising position - there was no way he would have got past so there was no need to try.
Raikkonen was always going to block him off on the exit of turn 18 and lead out of 19
so when he did try, he had the option of three things;
either turn into kimi and crash, go wide across the chicane and gain time on him, or brake, allow kimi through, miss the apex of 18 and lose two or three tenths (the latter being the correct sporting option)
Hamilton chose to cut the chicane which put him ahead of kimi. He knew he should also let Kimi past, but the reason for punishment was that he let him past and was behind him by less that a wheel's length, whereas if he had:
a) not tried to overtake in the first place, he would have been further back but possibly get a slipstream
or b) done what he did but backed off instead of cutting the chicane, where he would be half a second behind by that point.
So the facts dictate that Hamilton gained an advantage in that he ended up closer to Kimi than he would have been in the other two, more acceptable scenarios.

That is why I think that Lewis was in the wrong, however harsh the penalty may have been.
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F1 wheels have got a hell of a lot bigger these days if this.....


Spa20083.jpg



...is less than a wheels length behind KR after he let him retake.

I will also reiterate exactly what I have asked many, many times in regard to this exact claim that LH should have given back the exact same distance.

  1. Show us the exact FIA sport regulation that states this must be done?
  2. Tell me the exact starting position that must be used to provide the acceptable distance?
  3. Tell me exactly how the driver is going to measure it?


Its also completely false to state that "the facts dictate that Hamilton gained an advantage in that he ended up closer to Kimi than he would have been in the other two, more acceptable scenarios.", first off I don't see any 'facts' in your post. What I see is opinion, and opinion does not equal fact, never has, never will.

As such you can not state as a fact that either the other two scenarios were more acceptable or safer, nor that any advantage gained was not returned.


Regards

Scaff
 
Am I the only one that thought Kimi wouldn't have been overtaken if he hadn't faffed about so much shaking left-right going into the hairpin?
 
Sureshot
Am I the only one that thought Kimi wouldn't have been overtaken if he hadn't faffed about so much shaking left-right going into the hairpin?
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It looked to me like Kimi was unsure of exactly where Hamilton was after Hamilton let him retake the position. Maybe he didn't realize the Hamilton was giving the position back and then going to 'attack' again. I guess the only one that knows that is Kimi...

I haven't said anything about this yet. I don't like the penalty. If the stewards think there has been an infraction, fine, but don't let it effect the outcome of the race, apply the penalty to the next race. Also, why wasn't Rosberg's dangerous re-entry onto the track in front of Kimi and Lewis investigated? Could you image was a finish it could have been if they had both made it to the end of the race?
 
Ross!
As for the outside, to me it seems that Kimi braked only a tiny bit before the normal braking zone, and Louis went in too deep (not that that is any wrong-doing on his part), hence why he was so far round the outside of Kimi to start with. Lewis's options were clear, and he refused to take the sensible one which would have been to simply back right off, albeit losing a few tenths to Kimi.
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Kimi braked WAY before the rumble strip...not a "tiny bit" by a stretch. In fact, there was a fraction of a second where Hamilton actually passes him before the turn. It's obvious that Kimi pushed wide trying to protect the position, but he cut in front of Hamilton, who probably interpreted Raikkonen backing down before the chicane as a free pass.
 
*****Breaking News*****​

Sniffpetrol.com has just uncovered some clarifications to the FIA sporting code that will ensure once and for all that incidents of this nature never occur again.

Following unfortunate misunderstandings in the Grands Prix at Valencia and Spa, the FIA has revised the Red Car Rule for Formula 1. These amendments will be applied with immediate effect:

1) Overtaking a Ferrari is not permitted under any circumstances.
2) In the pit lane, a Ferrari always has precedence over other cars.
3) Any driver finishing less than 25 seconds ahead of a Ferrari will be penalized 25 seconds.*
4) If neither Ferrari finishes in first place, the stewards reserve the right to declare the result null and void (or to adjust it as necessary).
5) Only Ferrari drivers are permitted to use anything other than ‘designated’ parts of a circuit.
6) If forced off the ‘designated’ part of the track by a Ferrari, the guilty driver should immediately crash his car and return to the pits
6) Any driver or team appealing against any FIA decision in favour of Ferrari may be subject to a fine and/or the deduction of points.
*Subject to post-race adjustment by the stewards.
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Source - http://www.sniffpetrol.com/2008/09/12/those-new-f1-rules-in-full

Note - Scaff and GT Planet are in no way responsiable for any rude words that you may read at sniffpetrol.com, any offense you may take from the site is simply a product of your own sense of humour failiure. You have been warned.


Regards

Scaff
 
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I didn't find that funny at all.

I probably should have, it's just im tired of the fia and ferrari jokes even if they are fully justified.
 
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Well I find it funny because its true. (and besides, its Sniff Petrol!!!) Seriously, I think other news tabliod and F1 sites need to read this and put in on top of their page. Should give the public an idea about what is going on in the politics of F1, and give the FIA the lesson they needed. If Gordon Murray supported SP, I think everyone in F1 (besides Ferrari and the FIA) should all support their ideas as well. 👍
 
They made the wrong decision in every regard.

It is wrong to release a car from the pit when another car has the right of way.

Why? If they had made contact, would you have liked to have been stood in the pit garage that one of those cars spun into at 60 MPH?

It's a safety issue and a mere fine is in no way acceptable.
 
Ferrari released Massa, he didn't decide when to leave. It was Ferrari's fault and they were penalised.
 

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