2008 Belgian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeterJB
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Points to note when watching the video:

Note that Hamilton pulls out from behind Raikkonen on the run in to the chicane and is alongside him, not behind him, as they start braking. It's not a situation where one driver is trying to outbrake another to gain a position.

Watch Raikkonen's line into the left-hander (second part of the chicane). He is not driving the natural line for the apex, even (let alone driving slightly wider to leave room for the driver alongside him, as he should). He reaches the inside of the turn substantially before the apex, leaving literally nowhere for Hamilton to go besides off the track. It's Raikkonen who is in the forcing position there, not Hamilton. Nothing Hamilton can do at that point can affect Raikkonen's line, only vice versa.
 
I would love to be surprised by this, but quite frankly I'm not.

It is good to see that McLaren are going to appeal, but I honestly don't actyally see them winning the appeal (and any one who know the success rate of F1 appeals will know why).

I also feel sorry for Ferrari fans as well, as any true fan of motorsport would not want to see a team/driver win by these kind of means.


Scaff
 
Metar
The chaser can waggle as much as he wants - it's the chased one who can only change "lane" once.
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Hamilton was the one being chased at the time, I'm talking about the straight after Eau Rouge, just after Hamilton passed Kimi.
It's irrelevant anyways I guess, it just seemed to me that if they were going to investigate something, it would be that situation, rather than the incident at the chicane, where Hamilton did no wrong as far as I could tell.
 
There was no need for any investigation in the first place! All the FIA has done today is score another home goal for the benefit of the Ferrari bias accusations and ruined a good race. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, a point to consider on the run out of the chicane as well...

Under normal conditions, that's a flat-out acceleration run - you just hit the gas coming out of the chicane and don't let up until the turn at the end of the straight.

So consider what would happen if the same happened under normal conditions. Hamilton would have no way past Raikkonen, no matter how minimally he gave up the position. To give up the position you *have* to reduce your speed to lower than the other guy. No matter how fast you punch the accelerator after doing that, if you're both accelerating flat out, you'll be playing catch-up all the way along the straight; you'll never match his speed.

The only reason Hamilton was able to re-pass after giving up the position was simply because he accelerated more aggressively than Raikkonen did, which is a racing advantage, not gained in the chicane. Both drivers were something under full acceleration because of the wet track, but Hamilton was able to push it closer to the limit and accelerate more aggressively. That's the only way it's logically possible for him to have re-caught after slowing down to give back the position.

There was no drafting - Hamilton was directly behind Raikkonen for only the briefest of split seconds as they crossed paths directly before the corner. All the way up the straight, they were not in a straight line, hence no drafting. Hamilton simply out-accelerated Raikkonen up the second half of the straight, and out-braked him into the corner.
 
FLK
There was no need for any investigation in the first place! All the FIA has done today is score another home goal for the benefit of the Ferrari bias accusations and ruined a good race. :rolleyes:
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Quoted for truth.

One of the best endings to a GP i've seen and its been turned it into a complete farce! 👎
 
Kimi was driving over his head, with the track getting more slick every second he was trying to push the issue. Let us not forget he crashed out on his own. Lewis shouldn't have been screwed out of the victory i believe.
 
thought it was too good to be true...someone doesnt like him! hope he doesnt get stitched up out of winning the championship like last year!

one of the few races my dad didnt fall asleep watching :lol:
 
You know, maybe Lewis would have been better off to not submit the place and gain a drive through penalty and serve it on the last lap.
 
I can't help but wonder the massive anti-Ferrari movement again. Hamilton made a move that was practically impossible to pull off unless Räikkönen voluntarily gave him way, which he had no reason to do. In the process he gained a lot of ground by cutting a chicane and later used that to his advantage to overtake. By the way, that "forcing Hamilton to cut the chicane" is called race driving and it usually includes trying to hold one's position.

You ask, what advantage? Had it been a normal "one behind the other" situation he would have had to brake a lot earlier to be able to turn in. He would never have got right on Räikkönen's gearbox when coming onto the straight. Now he made a kamikaze braking, let Räikkönen past and then slipped right into his slipstream. He did not give back the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane and that's what he's being punished for. Normally incidents like that result in drivethrough or stop and go penalties but one couldn't be given so he got a time penalty.

My personal opinion about these new tarmac runoffs is that they're ridiculous. Had there been one good old school sand trap or a steel rail at the corner (it's hardly a corner that needs a tarmac runoff for safety reasons) and there would be no debate. Either Hamilton wouldn't have even tried that overly optimistic move that he now knew he could pull off, or his race would have ended right there.

And about FIA favouring Ferrari, you can think of such a minor detail that there's still a team called McLaren at the grid. Things could be otherwise even by the rules of the series.
 
Greycap: watch the video. Hamilton's driving through the chicane is hardly 'kamikaze'. He does not lock up or lose control under braking at all and makes the right hand section of the chicane comfortably. He actually has to turn *back* to the left in order to cut the corner when Raikkonen moves to the inside - his nose is already far enough turned to the right to make the second part of the chicane. If the move had been 'kamikaze' he would never have been able to turn the car enough to point to the right of the apex of the left hander, which it clearly does.

Edit: oh, and again if you watch the video, you will see clearly that at no point in the straight is he in Raikkonen's slipstream.
 
AdamW
You can't serve a drive through penalty on the final lap, AIUI.
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No double posting on the forum mate, use the edit button.

And you mean like Schumacher serving his in Silverstone 1998, hmmm? I realise that in the end, that penalty was incorrectly given, but during the race he could not have known that.

Greycap
By the way, that "forcing Hamilton to cut the chicane" is called race driving and it usually includes trying to hold one's position.
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Then why can't the same apply both ways? Ok, Hamilton made a move in too deep, hes forced to drive off, what else can he possibly do? Drive into Raikkonen?

Greycap
And about FIA favouring Ferrari, you can think of such a minor detail that there's still a team called McLaren at the grid. Things could be otherwise even by the rules of the series.
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I dont think you can really deny that it becomes very suspicious when you see that all of McLaren's incidents have resulted in penalties and only 1 of 3 Ferrari incidents have (and even then, it was a measly fine, which I don't recall being in the rules for penalties...).
 
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Havok_
Kimi was driving over his head, with the track getting more slick every second he was trying to push the issue. Let us not forget he crashed out on his own. Lewis shouldn't have been screwed out of the victory i believe.
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I totally agree - the punishment is unjustified, unnecessary and alters the result to something that is totally unrepresentative of what occurred on the track!

Bernie Ecclestone was bemoaning the fact that Valencia failed to provide the excitement that he had hoped for - but seemingly excitement is something that the FIA are happy to keep to a bare minimum.

The FIA must have a different way of understanding the laws of physics to justify the view that Lewis gained an advantage by cutting the chicane and then lifting off to allow Kimi back through - if Hamilton gained any advantage at all, he more than compensated for it by allowing Kimi back through IMO. Also, given the situation, what else could he have done? Crashed and taken them both out?

This penalty is grossly harsh and it's really bad for the sport - it's punishing the fans as much as anyone, because no-one likes watching a rigged game. 👎
 
Greycap
My personal opinion about these new tarmac runoffs is that they're ridiculous. Had there been one good old school sand trap or a steel rail at the corner (it's hardly a corner that needs a tarmac runoff for safety reasons) and there would be no debate. Either Hamilton wouldn't have even tried that overly optimistic move that he now knew he could pull off, or his race would have ended right there.
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A corner that doesn't need a run-off? It's a corner where they approach at 200mph.

As for the incident itself. It's quite simple, Hamilton gained no advantage by being forced to use the run-off because he gave it back to Kimi!

It's pathetic, best race of the season and the corrupt gits running the sport have ruined it.

Pinnacle of Motorsport, my arse.
 
AdamW
You can't serve a drive through penalty on the final lap, AIUI.
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You say that but do remember the race where Schumacher won from the pits(he had a 10second penalty at the time) again when it was a Ferrari vs McLaren battlethat was aloud or when he blocked mika at malaysia for most of the race so that idiot irvine could win the race,Ferrari have had the directors in their back pocket for ages and it just makes this sport so pathetic.


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to touring mars i agree with you on valencia it was so boring.They should bring back the nurburgring.
 
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They will probably end up penalizing any overtake attempts in a near future...:dunce:

Watching the replays again and again, I really don’t get it. Bad decision in my opinion.
 
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Ardius
But thats the point we are all infuriated about, he clearly didn't break ANY rules!
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The incident should have been left when Lewis gave back the position to Kimi! He didn't exactly drive off and use the advantage to win the race, did he?
 
AdamW
Edit: oh, and again if you watch the video, you will see clearly that at no point in the straight is he in Raikkonen's slipstream.
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I watched the entire race, thank you very much. And if I replace "slipstream" with "about as close behind as you can get without being in front" will it make you happy? That's the point, being ten inches behind when he should have been ten metres behind.

Ardius
No double posting on the forum mate, use the edit button.Ok, Hamilton made a move in too deep, hes forced to drive off, what else can he possibly do? Drive into Raikkonen?
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Slow down so much he has room again, perhaps? Räikkönen was ahead in that situation and thus the one who could choose his line.

Sureshot
A corner that doesn't need a run-off? It's a corner where they approach at 200mph.
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They approach, yes. The problem is that the apex in guestion is nowhere in line with the straight that leads into the complex and if a car has a brake failure it will go far past the second part of the chicane. The exit of the chicane certainly does not need a tarmac runoff for safety.

I know already that I can't win this debate like I can't win any debate against Hamilton because I'm on the wrong side by default so I can as well get the hell out of this thread.
 
Greycap
I know already that I can't win this debate like I can't win any debate against Hamilton because I'm on the wrong side by default so I can as well get the hell out of this thread.
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What an unecessary comment, its not like there are many Hamilton fanboys around here, if any at all. This isn't a case of us defending Hamilton, this is a case of us defending decent racing and attacking such rediculous penalties.
If this happened to Kovalainen, Massa or Raikkonen, the reaction would be the same, albeit without the "omg, ferrari conspiracy" talk. The penalty would still be seen as rediculous and not really fair at all.
All in my opinion of course.
 
The thing is this: any clever driver would have pulled off what Hamilton did. But do you think that Schuey would have been penalized for it? I don't.
 
Greycap
I know already that I can't win this debate like I can't win any debate against Hamilton because I'm on the wrong side by default so I can as well get the hell out of this thread.
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You do realize that every time your favourite driver is accused of wrongdoings, you see him in a completely innocent light? And remind us of the spy-saga? Or claim that the Hamilton fanboys are drowning you? Thing is, you're the fanboy here.

Some are Hamilton fans, some hate him. But Hamilton was side by side into the corner, and slightly ahead at the apex, when Räikkönen and he made slight contact - very similar, if slightly weaker, than what happened between their teammates just over a year ago at the Nurburgring. Hamilton was sent slightly off line - and opted to cut the chicane, yet return that position. For that matter, when Schumacher cut the line while defendig against Pedro de la Rosa at the Hungaroring, there was no punishment.

What almost everyone here is trying to say is simple: Hamilton had no option, Räikkönen was very aggressive with his lines despite being much slower, and that the position was returned properly, and re-taken legally. When considering just how much Kimi over-drove his car, just look at the next lap, when he managed to run wide once, and spin twice - one of those spins while returning from yet another runoff.
 
Rainmaster
what's up with schumi now anyway?
do you remember season 1997? is he the one who cant be penalizing ever? NO.
period.
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No-one said he hasn't ever been penalised, but he has done several things which many would have thought deserve a penalty easily....Adelaide 1994, for example.
 
Greycap
They approach, yes. The problem is that the apex in guestion is nowhere in line with the straight that leads into the complex and if a car has a brake failure it will go far past the second part of the chicane. The exit of the chicane certainly does not need a tarmac runoff for safety.
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If you can have a run-off area for any corner then it should be there. It's a proven life-saver, however, even if the cars are only travelling at 40mph, if they spun it, and there was no run-off they would hit the barrier, not likely to hurt themselves, but they could give the safety-car a lap or two when it isn't needed. It may not need it for safety, but for keeping the race free-flowing, it does.
 

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